GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #4

[Crazy Mama]

I'd suggest that the car was in a warehouse somewhere, perhaps connected to the other arrested persons, getting well cleaned....

 

[mrazda71]

I did initially think that Becky was murdered in her home but ... I'm wondering now, if an act took place - sexual (is my first incling) or a fight over something and NM knew ship would hit the fan so he took Becky from the house alive but by force. Possibly not intending to kill her but knowing his Mum would be back soon and needing time to placate, blackmail, threaten Becky. This obviously didn't happen and he ended up killing her. I dont think he dismembered Becky in SH house, she would've surely been around and I can only imagine that it's not a 5 minute job!

 

[k4kitty]

I did initially think that Becky was murdered in her home but ... I'm wondering now, if an act took place - sexual (is my first incling) or a fight over something and NM knew ship would hit the fan so he took Becky from the house alive but by force. Possibly not intending to kill her but knowing his Mum would be back soon and needing time to placate Becky. This obviously didn't happen and he ended up killing her. I dont think he dismembered Becky in SH house, she would've surely been around and I can only imagine that it's not a 5 minute job!

I was wondering this myself

 

[aneurin]

Yes, I've considered the figure given Prosecutor James Ward statement that there would be over '1,200' exhibits. What I can't really fathom what nature of these exhibits would have to take in order to number so many. ....

1,200 exhibits isn't a lot at all in relation to a homicide enquiry. Operation Ottawa - a Dyfed & Powys investigation of 2 double murders in Pembrokeshire - had 3,800 exhibits from in and around the prime suspect's home alone, plus more from the two crime scenes.

These days SOCO (or CSI if your prefer) will basically swab, and spray, and gather up everything that has the slightest chance of being probative. One of the challenges of a homicide enquiry is to catalogue all of this stuff and to try and work out what stuff is likely to give you the kind of result that will prove useful in court.

 

[Wallace]

1,200 exhibits isn't a lot at all in relation to a homicide enquiry. Operation Ottawa - a Dyfed & Powys investigation of 2 double murders in Pembrokeshire - had 3,800 exhibits from in and around the prime suspect's home alone, plus more from the two crime scenes.

These days SOCO (or CSI if your prefer) will basically swab, and spray, and gather up everything that has the slightest chance of being probative. One of the challenges of a homicide enquiry is to catalogue all of this stuff and to try and work out what stuff is likely to give you the kind of result that will prove useful in court.

Exactly what I said yesterday. Prioritising them and balancing the cost of tests against their potential evidential value will be a complex task.

If in doubt bag it, tag it and swab it.

 

[aneurin]

According to the charge sheet, Matthews is charged with the “murder of a person aged one year or older, namely between February 19 and March 3, murdered Rebecca Watts”.

Read more: http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...tory-26124292-detail/story.html#ixzz3U0KLafTS
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Possibly poor reporting?

I believe it to be accurate reporting.

Normally homicide charges are framed on the basis that the murder took place between (a) the day that the victim was last seen alive and, (b) the day on which the body was found. (Or sometimes the day before, and the day after, just to be really sure.)

 

[alanthecat]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, i'm just in the middle of catching up on the last pages.
Its interesting to me that the police want to know about everyone who's ever owned or pretty much had anything to do with the Zafira.
I think that the police want to know so much about the car because they got a good number of different DNA samples from the vehicle and need to match people to samples immediately.
To rule random innocent people out. Or to rule other incriminated people in.
Or they might suspect other victims and need to identify the samples for that reason.
For whatever reason, though, i think thats likely going on.
And i know from being a normal estate lad myself, we REALLY swap our vehicles about..!
More than you can fathom if you're not from that environment, for sure.
Not for any nefarious purposes, necessarily.
But its very common for cars to pass through a succession of assorted mates and their girlfriends etc
So to me, it feels normal for that car to have had any number of lads in charge of it, no matter what the documents say.
I bet the police are having a right old time of it tracking them all down.
So i feel its likely to be as much about that as it is about the actual movements of the zafira.

 

[Wallace]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, i'm just in the middle of catching up on the last pages.
Its interesting to me that the police want to know about everyone who's ever owned or pretty much had anything to do with the Zafira.
I think that the police want to know so much about the car because they got a good number of different DNA samples from the vehicle and need to match people to samples immediately.
To rule random innocent people out. Or to rule other incriminated people in.
Or they might suspect other victims and need to identify the samples for that reason.
For whatever reason, though, i think thats likely going on.
And i know from being a normal estate lad myself, we REALLY swap our vehicles about..!
More than you can fathom if you're not from that environment, for sure.
Not for any nefarious purposes, necessarily.
But its very common for cars to pass through a succession of assorted mates and their girlfriends etc
So to me, it feels normal for that car to have had any number of lads in charge of it, no matter what the documents say.
I bet the police are having a right old time of it tracking them all down.
So i feel its likely to be as much about that as it is about the actual movements of the zafira.

The vehicle obviously has a partially undocumented past and perhaps that includes the current ownership.

The movements thing is more puzzling, Bristol is covered with CCTV a fair chunk of which is ANPR activated. It could be that they are just trying to narrow down the search area to save reviewing thousands of hours of footage.

Driving a car around and totally avoiding surveillance suggests a level of planning, skill and intelligence that is completely contrary to everything else that has apparently been done to escape detection.

 

[Clio]

I believe it to be accurate reporting.

Normally homicide charges are framed on the basis that the murder took place between (a) the day that the victim was last seen alive and, (b) the day on which the body was found. (Or sometimes the day before, and the day after, just to be really sure.)

I believe this is the article which may be causing confusion. Both quotes are from here http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-stepbrother-nathan-matthews-5278013

The court clerk told him: "You are charged that between February 18 and March 1 in Bristol that you murdered Rebecca Watts."

According to the charge sheet, Matthews is charged with the "murder of a person aged one year or older, namely between February 19 and March 3, murdered Rebecca Watts".

The first being the day before she was last seen to the day after SH was arrested. The latter being the day she was last seen to the day after her remains were found.

 

[aneurin]

I believe this is the article which may be causing confusion. Both quotes are from here http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/becky-watts-stepbrother-nathan-matthews-5278013

The first being the day before she was last seen to the day after SH was arrested. The latter being the day she was last seen to the day after her remains were found.

That might well be the case. But nevertheless I believe it was correctly reported that NM was charged with murder "between February 19 and March 3".

 

[aneurin]

...The movements thing is more puzzling, Bristol is covered with CCTV a fair chunk of which is ANPR activated. It could be that they are just trying to narrow down the search area to save reviewing thousands of hours of footage.
....

There are a few about here and there.

Bristol CC even provide an online map that shows you where they are.

http://www.bristol.gov.uk/page/explore-bristol-city-centre

 

[aneurin]

Becky Watts: Police renew appeal for information about black Vauxhall Zafira in murder investigation

A spokesman said: "The critical time period is from the morning of Thursday, February 19 until Monday, February 23.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...mation-black/story-26147138-detail/story.html

My presumption would be that A&SC are working on the theory that, whilst the body may have arrived at the Barton Court address on the 22/23 February, it was being secreted somewhere else in the interim. And if the body was being transported around Bristol in this Zafira, then they would be anxious to know where it was during that time.

 

[Clio]

Do we know whose houses were searched in Wilton Close and Southmead?

From what I have read and seen photos of, it was one house in particular - 6 Wilton Close in Southmead IIRC. I haven't read anything from police/media to suggest whose house it is.

 

[Alyce]

This is one thing which puzzles me ( well , lots does really ).... if there is a body in a car and the person or persons responsible for the body being in that car have a few days to dispose of the body ( before the police were notified and began appeals ) ........then why bring everything back to their own doorstep , when a short drive would take them to woods or rivers ?

I can't somehow believe that RWs body was dismembered at CML. If it was then SH would be charged with a bit more than assisting an offender I would think.
So that only leaves Barton Court ?
Because if the dismemberment was done elsewhere, then, as I said above, why bring the body back to their own doorstep.

 

[Clio]

This is one thing which puzzles me ( well , lots does really ).... if there is a body in a car and the person or persons responsible for the body being in that car have a few days to dispose of the body ( before the police were notified and began appeals ) ........then why bring everything back to their own doorstep , when a short drive would take them to woods or rivers ?

I can't somehow believe that RWs body was dismembered at CML. If it was then SH would be charged with a bit more than assisting an offender I would think.
So that only leaves Barton Court ?
Because if the dismemberment was done elsewhere, then, as I said above, why bring the body back to their own doorstep.

Because the body was already on his/their own doorstep? i.e. she didn't die at home
Maybe she was put in the car but it was impossible to drive away to dispose of her due to close scrutiny
Desperation led to dismemberment in the Barton Hill area and the parts being put in Barton Court

I can sort of see how the D family might be involved due to living so close. What puzzles me (amongst many other things) is how JI is involved

 

[sar2them1984]

From what I have read and seen photos of, it was one house in particular - 6 Wilton Close in Southmead IIRC. I haven't read anything from police/media to suggest whose house it is.

The comment has since been removed but I think I may have a screen shot.. I'll look - it was on Bristol Post FB page. The house supposedly belongs to the mother of SH. This was confirmed by mom

 

[ChuckieD]

Because the body was already on his/their own doorstep? i.e. she didn't die at home
Maybe she was put in the car but it was impossible to drive away to dispose of her due to close scrutiny
Desperation led to dismemberment in the Barton Hill area and the parts being put in Barton Court

I can sort of see how the D family might be involved due to living so close. What puzzles me (amongst many other things) is how JI is involved

Because they have connections to each other and are mates.

 

[Damond]

Exactly what I said yesterday. Prioritising them and balancing the cost of tests against their potential evidential value will be a complex task.

If in doubt bag it, tag it and swab it.

I agree. I think I have been misled by the term 'exhibit', which I thought ( most likely erroneously ) to mean artefacts that will be submitted to the court before the trial begins, and that that means they have been determined to be relevant.

Yes, if 'exhibit' can even mean absolutely anything collected as evidence at any point of the investigation, then no, 1,200 doesn't seem high.

What still seems odd, then, is the relevance of the prosecutor mentioning this at all. Especially if it isn't a particularly high ( or low) number.

 

[Alyce]

Because the body was already on his/their own doorstep? i.e. she didn't die at home
Maybe she was put in the car but it was impossible to drive away to dispose of her due to close scrutiny
Desperation led to dismemberment in the Barton Hill area and the parts being put in Barton Court

I can sort of see how the D family might be involved due to living so close. What puzzles me (amongst many other things) is how JI is involved

Perhaps JI was just in the wrong place at the wrong time ....... or did he perhaps supply the equipment necessary for the dismemberment ?

 

[Wallace]

I agree. I think I have been misled by the term 'exhibit', which I thought ( most likely erroneously ) to mean artefacts that will be submitted to the court before the trial begins, and that that means they have been determined to be relevant.

Yes, if 'exhibit' can even mean absolutely anything collected as evidence at any point of the investigation, then no, 1,200 doesn't seem high.

What still seems odd, then, is the relevance of the prosecutor mentioning this at all. Especially if it isn't a particularly high ( or low) number.

It's related to the accused's right to a swift trial. It gave the court a sensible idea as to when the prosecution could be ready for trial.