GUILTY UK - Rebecca Watts, 16, Bristol, 19 Feb 2015 #6

[mrazda71]

I absolutely agree, just about to reply in a similar vein.

What they have found has to be strong evidence of her being involved and phone exchanges wouldn't be enough for her charge of murder.

Maybe the finger mark bruising on Becky matches the size of Shauna's hands?

 

[Clio]

I've been wondering this too! How did the neighbours not hear?! Circular saws are horribly loud and piercing.


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Maybe they did hear. SW (neighbour of NM/SH) was interviewed on 24/2 and said she hadn't heard anything unusual. She was later re-interviewed at which point she said she had heard noises and assumed they were doing DIY.

 

[bos]

Unfortunately in a legal sense, the witness accounts given by the neighbour have had their credibility questioned because on the 24th Feb she said she heard nothing unusual and it was only after NM & SH were charged on 4th March that she described the noise.

SH's DNA was found in one of the face masks according to the opening statements from the prosecution. It was also less widely reported (adding to my belief that we are not hearing the entirety of evidence that the court are), that a plastic bag containing BW's body parts had SH's DNA in the knot it was closed with.http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...killed-in-sexually-motivated-attack-jury-told

 

[Clio]

I would think ( hope ) that there has to be more. I don't see how they could increase SHs charge to murder based only on those phone exchanges. Vile as they were, it does not prove she was in the room and/or assisting when Becky was killed.

I absolutely agree, just about to reply in a similar vein.

What they have found has to be strong evidence of her being involved and phone exchanges wouldn't be enough for her charge of murder.

Surely if there was more concrete evidence of SH's involvement of Becky's actual death it would have been included in the prosecution's opening statement.

They have said that the essence of the case is of two people acting together, working as a team. I think they found evidence of sexual interest in teenage girls/kidnapping on phones and computers, SH's DNA on a mask and inside a knot in one of the disposal bags, stun guns having been delivered in her name and those things together with her "ridiculous" story of having a smoke in the garden for 15/20 mins is basically their case against her.

"....for Hoare to be found guilty of murder, she would have to have intended for Becky to be killed or caused serious harm, or that she foresaw or anticipated that as part of the plan to kidnap Becky, serious injury would have been caused to her."

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Becky-...tory-27946813-detail/story.html#ixzz3ovBFtLYA

 

[Clio]

Unfortunately in a legal sense, the witness accounts given by the neighbour have had their credibility questioned because on the 24th Feb she said she heard nothing unusual and it was only after NM & SH were charged on 4th March that she described the noise.

Possibly and I suspect she may have got the dates she heard the noises a bit mixed up, however something made her mention DIY. I doubt the details of the saw were available to her when she did describe what she heard so I wondered if that sound is what made her mention DIY.

SH's DNA was found in one of the face masks according to the opening statements from the prosecution. It was also less widely reported (adding to my belief that we are not hearing the entirety of evidence that the court are), that a plastic bag containing BW's body parts had SH's DNA in the knot it was closed with.http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...killed-in-sexually-motivated-attack-jury-told

We don't seem to have heard very much about DNA analysis as yet and they seem to be presenting evidence chronologically. Given that SH's murder charges were added 3-4 months after her initial arrest, perhaps we will hear more about those DNA findings in due course.

 

[flutterby]

Could joint enterprise apply here if she's proven to take part in the attempted kidnap but it's impossible to tell who was responsible for suffocating Becky? Or does NM's admission of guilt for killing her override that?

 

[onthecounter]

Could joint enterprise apply here if she's proven to take part in the attempted kidnap but it's impossible to tell who was responsible for suffocating Becky? Or does NM's admission of guilt for killing her override that?

Yes, but it would also have to be proven that SH expected Becky's death to be a likely outcome, and part of, the joint enterprise of the kidnap. She could argue that the murder was a separate unrelated incident to the kidnap, thus not falling within joint enterprise, but guilt by association which is not a crime.

 

[Hexenb]

My cogs are turning again I was just reading part of SH statement to the police which she says I last see NM as they entered the house he had reversed the car on the drive (I wonder if that was usual for him to do that when visiting?) she also states NM went into the living room and shut the door she goes out for ciggy comes in NW on the seat nearest the door all hunky dory! not flustered or nothing, so well rehearsed covering her tracks all the way.The living room door being shut the everlasting ciggie and rabbit feeding and hand washing. I'm also wondering if Becky actually let them in. This part of the statement I took from the facebook page UK&Eire database for all crimes against children I believe a lot of members here view.

 

[Clio]

Joint enterprise is a doctrine of common law that has been developed by the courts to allow more than one person to be charged and convicted of the same crime. Often used in murder cases, the doctrine does not require proof that you intended someone to die or that you directly took part in their death. Under joint enterprise you only have to foresee that one of your group might intentionally cause someone else serious bodily harm, to be found guilty of murder.

https://www.thebureauinvestigates.c...o-concerns-about-the-use-of-joint-enterprise/

BIB Isn't that exactly what the prosecution are alleging?

ETA If Joint Enterprise is being used it might also explain the UK & EIRE comment that SH charges are different to NMs

 

[Tortoise]

Could joint enterprise apply here if she's proven to take part in the attempted kidnap but it's impossible to tell who was responsible for suffocating Becky? Or does NM's admission of guilt for killing her override that?

Good point. Having thought about it, I think that is highly likely actually. NM's admission won't be accepted by the prosecution because Becky was suffocated and NM hasn't admitted to suffocating Becky. His admission is that he strangled her, which is not honest. Therefore, in the absence of a clear perpetrator, murder by joint enterprise may indeed apply here.

 

[Clio]

Good point. Having thought about it, I think that is highly likely actually. NM's admission won't be accepted by the prosecution because Becky was suffocated and NM hasn't admitted to suffocating Becky. His admission is that he strangled her, which is not honest. Therefore, in the absence of a clear perpetrator, murder by joint enterprise may indeed apply here.

I don't think it's the case that NM's admission that he killed Becky won't be accepted by the prosecution because he admitted to strangling her but the COD has been deemed to be suffocation. He might not know the difference. The fact is he has admitted to killing her, albeit he says not intentionally.

That said, I didn't think there needed to be "absence of a clear perpetrator" for joint enterprise to apply.

 

[YidArmyRach]

I know the puffa jacket was hers. I think they took extra clothes of BW with the laptop and tablet etc to make it look like a runaway. Am guessing the clothes that were 'on hangers', perhaps a sign they did it in a hurry or why take hangers? I think there were slippers and boots too, but not sure which were Beckys. BW was actually wearing a leopard print onesie and Green Sweater as I remember.
Hopefully more will come out next week. The Police certainly had a ton of evidence to go through. Amazing that they got the case to Trial so quickly! MOO

I saw this the other day, when I was searching what was said at the time Becky was missing. It was in the interview with her dad:

The fashion conscious teenager had not taken any clothes and make up, and had left her phone charger and purse at home.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/missing-rebecca-watts-dad-fears-5222741

Maybe at that stage they hadn't noticed anything else was missing?

 

[YidArmyRach]

I don't think it's the case that NM's admission that he killed Becky won't be accepted by the prosecution because he admitted to strangling her but the COD has been deemed to be suffocation. He might not know the difference. The fact is he has admitted to killing her, albeit he says not intentionally.

That said, I didn't think there needed to be "absence of a clear perpetrator" for joint enterprise to apply.

Could he have deliberately admitted to killing Becky in a way he knew would be shown to be untrue - thinking he couldn't possibly be found guilty of murder if he admitted to strangling her, when she wasn't strangled? If he made it look like he thought he had killed Becky, is he leaving it open to suggest SH actually smothered Becky?

So, although it looks like he's taking the blame, might he try to set her up for it? Probably a bit far fetched .... but then again, no more far fetched than their version of events.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't think it's the case that NM's admission that he killed Becky won't be accepted by the prosecution because he admitted to strangling her but the COD has been deemed to be suffocation. He might not know the difference. The fact is he has admitted to killing her, albeit he says not intentionally.

That said, I didn't think there needed to be "absence of a clear perpetrator" for joint enterprise to apply.

yes, I should have said 'may not be accepted' rather than 'won't be accepted'.

I don't think it is easy to confuse strangulation with suffocation, but that is my own personal view. To me it seems he didn't have the knowledge of how she died and may have been covering for SH so that they don't both go down and maybe it was his idea and he didn't want her punished for that.

There doesn't need to be absence of a clear perpetrator, but if there isn't one, it can be used.

 

[YidArmyRach]

She explained that Matthews – who admits killing Becky but denies her murder - had first telephoned his mother to see if Becky would be home to let them in or whether she could leave a spare key outside under a bin.

Read more: http://www.westerndailypress.co.uk/...tory-27967420-detail/story.html#ixzz3oww2BJ4E
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If you were planning kidnapping someone that day, would you really telephone a member of their family to check they are going to be
there ..... and ask for the means to get into the house to commit a crime?

I really don't believe the kidnap story at all.

I think something got out of hand at the house that day, and it was a case of covering it all up afterwards. There doesn't seem to have been any plans put in place to facilitate a kidnap or confining Becky somewhere (they had their child with them, their house was in such a state there was nowhere to keep someone confined, they had made no plans for getting rid of a body and so on).

I do think her death was unplanned and I can believe that when they went to the house, that was never the intended outcome - however, the way they dealt with it afterwards is chilling.

I know they are both incredibly stupid, but would they really let NM's mum know they were going to her house, if they planned to kidnap Becky and obviously be the last know people to see her alive - making them number one suspects from the start?

 

[Tortoise]

It is indeed such a puzzling case. At the beginning I didn't believe the kidnap plan, and thought it was something NM had invented. Now I have changed my mind. Why would he invent something so unlikely as to be almost unbelievable to explain how he ended up in a struggle with Becky? The texts between him and SH show this was something they had considered carrying out together. The stun guns (two of), handcuffs and mask are inexplicable without a kidnap in mind. A rape in her bedroom? - no too much risk for contamination of the room, and being disturbed by Anji coming back early or her bf calling round. So that leads me to think it was their plan to remove Becky all along and I can't see that ending in any way except with their capture - she would know their identities. So, did they plan to kill her all along? It's the only way they could hope to avoid repercussions.

come to think of it, NM hasn't admitted to trying to kidnap Becky, so I don't know where I got that idea from!

 

[inspectorfrost]

He has admitted trying to kidnap her but not conspiracy to kidnap

 

[mrazda71]

It is indeed such a puzzling case. At the beginning I didn't believe the kidnap plan, and thought it was something NM had invented. Now I have changed my mind. Why would he invent something so unlikely as to be almost unbelievable to explain how he ended up in a struggle with Becky? The texts between him and SH show this was something they had considered carrying out together. The stun guns (two of), handcuffs and mask are inexplicable without a kidnap in mind. A rape in her bedroom? - no too much risk for contamination of the room, and being disturbed by Anji coming back early or her bf calling round. So that leads me to think it was their plan to remove Becky all along and I can't see that ending in any way except with their capture - she would know their identities. So, did they plan to kill her all along? It's the only way they could hope to avoid repercussions.

come to think of it, NM hasn't admitted to trying to kidnap Becky, so I don't know where I got that idea from!

I think he has admitted to attempting to kidnap but he's pleaded not guilty to conspiracy to kidnap as the conspiring bit would include Shauna.

I keep changing my mind all along :/

From day 1 I never thought it was an accident and I even posted that I would put money on the culprits being whichever 'family members' it was that were left in the home when AG left for hospital. I never ever considered that it was an accidental killing. Never.
I always suspected that there was a sexual motive. I had thought that SH had helped NM AFTER the fact.
I was thrown a little by her first video interview but then thrown again by the emergence of the texts between the two.
I suppose as relatively sane people we just can not comprehend that people would do such awful depraved things

 

[inspectorfrost]

A few things bother me about this case

- the removal of her tampon
- having two stun guns plus handcuffs and not using either while trying to restrain her?
- bruises to only one of her arms
- use of tape around the head once decapitated (no other body parts were wrapped in clear tape)

just bugging me...

 

[mrazda71]

I've been doing my best to not think in depth about the 'cutting up' part of this but I was cleaning my bathroom today and I thought to myself - if I had a body in there and was using a power tool to cut it up A, I'd need a long extention lead. B, wouldn't the power saw leave marks on the bath surface?