GUILTY UK - Sarah Everard, 33, London, Clapham Common area, 3 Mar 2021 *Awaiting Sentencing*, #15
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johnlair
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Few things need clearing up in my mind 1st is why did he wipe his phone 45 mins before arrest co-incidence or did wayne have other crooked cops looking out for him with a tip off..
I wonder with the Father did he mean his actual dad or the guy his mum married after she left his dad because as we know from simple buisness checks on the garage she worked there to a certain time and then set up buisness with a new guy... plus an address check on his mum showed she and the stepfather lived in deal close to him.. she even had ties in a landscape gardening buisness with a guy who lived on Waynes Street and a haulage company ... Made me think of all the waste that was dumped at the abandoned leisure centre ground they got in trouble for.. anyway yeah Wayne may well have seen the other guy as a dad... who knows..
The Hire car seems strange didn't it say in one article it was registered to two numbers? I could be mistaken and I really am having a hard time understanding how he transferred Sarah to his own car he couldn't drive both vehicles a bit at a time... And Hoad Wood is a long way from Dover..
Also his forensic scientist wife states she knew nothing and didn't see any warning signs ... what was going on with the ambulance that was seen outside the address in the days that followed sarahs disapearence and as he had taken his leave at that point from work did she know? and if so did she not question him disapearing off for hours at a time to return back to where the body was
was she never wondering why he wasn't spending time with her and the kids on his leave.
I wonder with the Father did he mean his actual dad or the guy his mum married after she left his dad because as we know from simple buisness checks on the garage she worked there to a certain time and then set up buisness with a new guy... plus an address check on his mum showed she and the stepfather lived in deal close to him.. she even had ties in a landscape gardening buisness with a guy who lived on Waynes Street and a haulage company ... Made me think of all the waste that was dumped at the abandoned leisure centre ground they got in trouble for.. anyway yeah Wayne may well have seen the other guy as a dad... who knows..
The Hire car seems strange didn't it say in one article it was registered to two numbers? I could be mistaken and I really am having a hard time understanding how he transferred Sarah to his own car he couldn't drive both vehicles a bit at a time... And Hoad Wood is a long way from Dover..
Also his forensic scientist wife states she knew nothing and didn't see any warning signs ... what was going on with the ambulance that was seen outside the address in the days that followed sarahs disapearence and as he had taken his leave at that point from work did she know? and if so did she not question him disapearing off for hours at a time to return back to where the body was
was she never wondering why he wasn't spending time with her and the kids on his leave.
johnlair
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Few things need clearing up in my mind 1st is why did he wipe his phone 45 mins before arrest co-incidence or did wayne have other crooked cops looking out for him with a tip off..
I wonder with the Father did he mean his actual dad or the guy his mum married after she left his dad because as we know from simple buisness checks on the garage she worked there to a certain time and then set up buisness with a new guy... plus an address check on his mum showed she and the stepfather lived in deal close to him.. she even had ties in a landscape gardening buisness with a guy who lived on Waynes Street and a haulage company ... Made me think of all the waste that was dumped at the abandoned leisure centre ground they got in trouble for.. anyway yeah Wayne may well have seen the other guy as a dad... who knows..
The Hire car seems strange didn't it say in one article it was registered to two numbers? I could be mistaken and I really am having a hard time understanding how he transferred Sarah to his own car he couldn't drive both vehicles a bit at a time... And Hoad Wood is a long way from Dover..
Also his forensic scientist wife states she knew nothing and didn't see any warning signs ... what was going on with the ambulance that was seen outside the address in the days that followed sarahs disapearence and as he had taken his leave at that point from work did she know? and if so did she not question him disapearing off for hours at a time to return back to where the body was
was she never wondering why he wasn't spending time with her and the kids on his leave.
I wonder with the Father did he mean his actual dad or the guy his mum married after she left his dad because as we know from simple buisness checks on the garage she worked there to a certain time and then set up buisness with a new guy... plus an address check on his mum showed she and the stepfather lived in deal close to him.. she even had ties in a landscape gardening buisness with a guy who lived on Waynes Street and a haulage company ... Made me think of all the waste that was dumped at the abandoned leisure centre ground they got in trouble for.. anyway yeah Wayne may well have seen the other guy as a dad... who knows..
The Hire car seems strange didn't it say in one article it was registered to two numbers? I could be mistaken and I really am having a hard time understanding how he transferred Sarah to his own car he couldn't drive both vehicles a bit at a time... And Hoad Wood is a long way from Dover..
Also his forensic scientist wife states she knew nothing and didn't see any warning signs ... what was going on with the ambulance that was seen outside the address in the days that followed sarahs disapearence and as he had taken his leave at that point from work did she know? and if so did she not question him disapearing off for hours at a time to return back to where the body was
was she never wondering why he wasn't spending time with her and the kids on his leave.
Apologies - new here and not sure how to quote a previous message and comment.
The other commenter suggested that the Metropolitan Police had done all they could and couldn't have prevented Sarah's murder. They had information both from three days ago and six years ago that he was linked to voyeurism or flashing offences. These are criminal offences. If they had acted on these offences, then yes, there is a chance that Wayne Couzens would not have been free to murder Sarah. In the case of the first offences dated 2015, if this had been handled and investigated properly, there is a likelihood he would have been removed from the MPS. In the second incident three days before Sarah, again, if investigated, he may have been taken into custody and warrant card removed.
There is a pervasive attitude that these offences are low level and so authorities can't do much about them. On the contrary, research consistently indicates these offences are part of a wider trajectory and indicate future high level risk. Many murderers begin by commmitting such crimes and continue on an escalating trajectory because the police initial response is 'its just a flasher'. It's incumbment on all public authorities to recognise the patterns of behaviour that lead to murder and when an incident first occurs, conduct a risk assssment and ensure that there is an action plan to mitigate any further risk.
The other commenter suggested that the Metropolitan Police had done all they could and couldn't have prevented Sarah's murder. They had information both from three days ago and six years ago that he was linked to voyeurism or flashing offences. These are criminal offences. If they had acted on these offences, then yes, there is a chance that Wayne Couzens would not have been free to murder Sarah. In the case of the first offences dated 2015, if this had been handled and investigated properly, there is a likelihood he would have been removed from the MPS. In the second incident three days before Sarah, again, if investigated, he may have been taken into custody and warrant card removed.
There is a pervasive attitude that these offences are low level and so authorities can't do much about them. On the contrary, research consistently indicates these offences are part of a wider trajectory and indicate future high level risk. Many murderers begin by commmitting such crimes and continue on an escalating trajectory because the police initial response is 'its just a flasher'. It's incumbment on all public authorities to recognise the patterns of behaviour that lead to murder and when an incident first occurs, conduct a risk assssment and ensure that there is an action plan to mitigate any further risk.
JuicyLucy
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I respect the difficult and wildly underfunded work of the Met, and accept that the organisation as a whole cannot be held directly responsible for the actions of one individual among them. However, it's pretty standard practice for the person in charge of an organisation to stand down after a major failure or catalogue of failures. IMHO, the way this operation unfolded reveals such a catalogue of failures.
I have been impressed with the detective work itself, not that I'm much of an expert, but I think there are issues that have arisen in the course of the investigation that were botched, unacceptable, undermined public confidence in the Met, or all three:
- For example, the fact that the Met appears not to have picked up on Couzens' psychological issues and alleged drug misuse before putting him in an armed role; also possibly - I admit I'm not sure - put him in such a role as a result of accepting unchecked the historic assessment of another constabulary.
- For example, the fact that the failure to investigate the indecent exposure allegations against this specific individual, and the ongoing failure to prioritise indecent exposure offences generally, despite that offence's known 'gateway' status, both appear to have led to the continuation in post of someone who was not suitable to work as a police officer and should at the very least have been suspended pending investigation; arguably the fact that this lack of action/intervention may as a result have led directly to someone's death, (particularly if it transpires that the defendant used his warrant card in the commission of SE's abduction).
- For example, the inappropriate behaviour of a significant number of officers involved in the investigation, which in turn suggests an embedded culture of inappropriate attitudes (e.g. the sick meme that was shared) and failure to follow regulations (e.g. the leaking of the prosecution case) - alleged at present and still under investigation by the IOPC.
- For example, the uneven application of the law vis a vis the attendance of the Duchess of Cambridge at the Clapham Common vigil ("for work purposes"
) as compared to the heavy-handed arrests of other attendees.
I don't know enough about her wider performance in post to comment, but this case imo has exposed some glaring leadership failures. I know it's not fashionable in the current political climate, but imo leaders who fail to lead effectively should resign.
By all means, stay until the case is closed and the IOPC have concluded their investigations, but once the full weight of the failures can be quantified, instead of expressing 'regret', Cressida Dick should take proper ownership of them and go.
But it's JMO. Others may feel she's doing an excellent job.
Marantz4250b
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Yes, they are. That's why they are called "Whole Life Orders". It is an order of the convicting court that the person sentenced to life shall never be allowed to apply for parole. There is a power for the Home Secretary to release on compassionate grounds but the convicted person can never be let out by the parole board. You saying that the Home Secretary has the power to "set the term of a WLO", or however you put it, is a nonsense. It's contradictory to the very name. The Home Sec has no sentencing power and has not had for several years, as it should be. Politicians should play no part in the administration of criminal justice.
Marantz4250b
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Very well said.
That is a very good point. I remember in earlier discussions we were trying to work out which route he would have taken. If the M20 he could have gone straight to Hoads Wood. Then gone home. But it seems more likely he took the A2 as his car was spotted at Tilmanstone. So, knowing there is a wooded area at Betteshanger close to Tilmanstone and an area he knew well. IMO he went there to either commit the alleged crime or secrete the body until the next day. If the latter he could have gone back in his own car next day to take the body somewhere else (Hoads Wood near Ashford) to his own piece of land. Or - if the former - the alleged crime was committed at Betteshanger he could have just put the body in the boot of the car overnight. He went home in the hire car that night and took it back 8.30 next morning. At some point the body was transferred to his own car (apparently- detectives were thinking that). I can’t see how he can have done that next morning unless his own car was already at home. (He could have used his motorbike to go to and from the hire car place and left it there to pick up when he took the hire car back). Even then at 7 to 8 am someone could see him moving something big and heavy from one car to the other so that seems unlikely. I think it’s more likely he was in a panic and needed to dump the body and get home that night. So he took the most direct route back on the A2. Turned off to Betteshanger, his the body somewhere. Went home - got up early, took the hire car back- picked up his own car (left at the hire car place). Drove back to Betteshanger to put the body in his own car then took it somewhere- Hoads Wood - his own land where he had a right to be and not seem unusual - and tried to disguise or burn it. Probably not very successfully. Went to B&Q to buy the builders bags - went back and put the remains of the body in that and in the stream. He apparently had a few trips out there over the next few days.
The ambulance was ruled out. Someone local said it was at a different house further up the street- the media report from a “source” was incorrect. The comment about his Dad being buried there was just an excuse off the top of his head IMO. But good point he may have been close to his stepdad- do we know if stepdad still alive?
The car business - posted my views above - looking at maps helps.
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After Sarah Everard’s murder, police must take flashing more seriously | News | The Sunday Times
''Police will be told to take offences such as indecent exposure and street harassment more seriously in the wake of Sarah Everard’s murder.''
Sarah Everard murder: Every police force must have female violence unit, says Tory peer
''Specialised units to tackle violence against women must be introduced in all police forces in the wake of Sarah Everard's death, a Conservative peer whose cousin was murdered by a "local sex pest" has urged.
Baroness Gabby Bertin, who sat on the scrutiny committee for the Domestic Abuse Bill, said it was "shocking" that not all forces had departments trained to deal with these crimes given their prevalence.
The former press secretary to David Cameron spoke out after Met PC Wayne Couzens pleaded guilty to murdering Ms Everard, who was kidnapped in London while walking home alone at night earlier this year.
Baroness Bertin revealed that her own cousin was killed by a man who was, until then, considered no more than the "local sex pest".
''Police will be told to take offences such as indecent exposure and street harassment more seriously in the wake of Sarah Everard’s murder.''
Sarah Everard murder: Every police force must have female violence unit, says Tory peer
''Specialised units to tackle violence against women must be introduced in all police forces in the wake of Sarah Everard's death, a Conservative peer whose cousin was murdered by a "local sex pest" has urged.
Baroness Gabby Bertin, who sat on the scrutiny committee for the Domestic Abuse Bill, said it was "shocking" that not all forces had departments trained to deal with these crimes given their prevalence.
The former press secretary to David Cameron spoke out after Met PC Wayne Couzens pleaded guilty to murdering Ms Everard, who was kidnapped in London while walking home alone at night earlier this year.
Baroness Bertin revealed that her own cousin was killed by a man who was, until then, considered no more than the "local sex pest".
arrogantcat
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Mainstream press are reporting allegations of indecent exposure linked to him as far back as 5 years ago. He has also been charged with commuting a similar offence days prior to Sarah’s murder, but this was not investigated at the time (despite clear number plate data) because these crimes are generally dismissed and not taken seriously.
We do not yet know the full extent of any previous misconduct or accusations against him, so it seems premature to say whether any of his superiors could or could not have acted sooner. However, it does seem to highlight yet again how these supposedly “minor” sexual offenders seem to frequently escalate into more violent crimes and should be taken seriously early on.
Angleterre
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that’s my point exactly , you do not know if it is premature to say that the senior officers could have acted sooner . Thank goodness someone giving a reasonable response and understanding.
johnlair
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Sounds plausable.
I didn't know the ambulance was ruled out thanks for that because that played on my mind.. Also there was the photo of a fire in Hoads which got a whole thread pulled ... Are we thinking this could be him nowwe know he attempted to burn her or not?
I do find the timing of him wiping his phone 45 mins before a bit too coincidental like he has just been informed by a colleague he is gonna get arrested and knew beforehand... if that's the case maybe the crooked collegue was looking out for his own back and there was stuff on the phone he didn't want getting out..
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Murdered teen's mum says 'we've learnt nothing' as Sarah Everard's killer jailed
It echoes the case of Libby, raped by Polish dad-of-two Pawel Relowicz, 26, and dumped in the River Hull.
He had spent 18 months patrolling the streets of Hull, peering into women’s windows and pleasuring himself in the street.
Lisa said her heart broke at hearing of the similarities between Libby, 21, and Sarah – murdered by men linked to minor sexual offences.
It echoes the case of Libby, raped by Polish dad-of-two Pawel Relowicz, 26, and dumped in the River Hull.
He had spent 18 months patrolling the streets of Hull, peering into women’s windows and pleasuring himself in the street.
Lisa said her heart broke at hearing of the similarities between Libby, 21, and Sarah – murdered by men linked to minor sexual offences.
Well said .
I'm not sure the fire was at Hoads wood, I think it was another area and dismissed. But yes it does make you think. Can't remember where it was now - Great Chart? Actually yes Great Chart is next to Hoads wood - still not sure that's where the fire was though. He clearly did have a fire if the body was burned but there? Or somewhere else. Yes that is strange that he wiped his phone so soon before they got there. Maybe he knew they were watching the house - also there was a fair bit of publicity and he maybe guessed things were closing in. What doesn't make sense is why he'd wipe his phone and not hide the memory card if he expected they'd come for him. If he'd been warned he probably would have hidden the memory card rather than have to throw it out of the window at the last minute - but it does make you wonder. In a panic maybe he forgot about the memory card. Or it could be he'd wiped his phone so his wife couldn't see a few things he'd been up to. Why would anyone want to protect him if he'd done a crime like that though?
I also feel sorry for his wife and family, but he clearly had a lot of secrets from her and she didn't know a lot of things. All the stuff he bought on Amazon next day delivery. Didn't she question what he was buying and why? Normal type couple conversation. Was it normal for him to keep going out on his own? Maybe it was. You think she'd have had some gut feeling or suspicions but I suppose people push them to one side as it seems unreal. I wonder what his excuse for the hire car was? Unless she didn't know. If he got back at 1.30 am and set off from home around 8.30am maybe she didn't actually see it.
She must have known his behaviour was erratic when he phoned in sick. But presumably just worried about him. Maybe she was just very preoccupied with work and the kids.
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Seattle1
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While technically true, I think we can take guidance from MSM that is reporting on the details we are discussing here under the legal eyes of their publisher.
That being said, I do think there is a good chance that WC may still face charges for alleged indecent exposure, alleged possession of *advertiser censored*, etc., where members should tread under caution. MOO
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