UK - Scarlett Vickers (14) stabbed to death at home in Darlington. Parents charged with murder (5 July '24)

[bringmeacupoft]

Dread to think what went on in that house behind closed doors.

 

[bobbymkii]

@bobbymkii could you share a little context on the procedures of the relevant courts? (Eg. disputing the facts, moving to crown court, etc.) I’m completely unfamiliar with this context.

Well IANAL but if I'm given an opportunity to do a bit of guerilla lawsplaining I'm usually happy to give it a go!

So they've been charged and had their magistrates court appearance, where all cases start. Obviously, murder is way too serious for a magistrates court to deal with so the next hearing according to the media I've picked up is next month at crown court. Seems to be quite a long time until they get to Crown Court, usually it's a lot sooner. I've even seen big murder cases before where the defendant has been in the magistrate's court in the morning and then crown court in the afternoon. There was also (IIRC) mention that they could apply for bail this week.

It's always a bit hush-hush at this stage and difficult to work out exactly what's going on, no indication that I can see about when they'll be expected to enter a plea. I believe they can apply for a hearing to dismiss the charges.

Other things that might happen between now and the next court date in August is a coroner's inquest which will get as far as it can before being suspended until the trial's conclusion. We might get more information made public after their Crown Court hearing next month, we might not! That's unfortunately how transparency (or the lack thereof) works in the England & Wales criminal justice system.

 

[Helen_Stewart]

I assumed it was one of the parents who called the emergency services. Unless Scarlett didn't die immediately and she managed to phone for help.

This is my theory too. She wakes up, hears or sees a commotion, realises it's serious and rings the police. Then goes to try and intervene.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Well IANAL but if I'm given an opportunity to do a bit of guerilla lawsplaining I'm usually happy to give it a go!

So they've been charged and had their magistrates court appearance, where all cases start. Obviously, murder is way too serious for a magistrates court to deal with so the next hearing according to the media I've picked up is next month at crown court. Seems to be quite a long time until they get to Crown Court, usually it's a lot sooner. I've even seen big murder cases before where the defendant has been in the magistrate's court in the morning and then crown court in the afternoon. There was also (IIRC) mention that they could apply for bail this week.

It's always a bit hush-hush at this stage and difficult to work out exactly what's going on, no indication that I can see about when they'll be expected to enter a plea. I believe they can apply for a hearing to dismiss the charges.

Other things that might happen between now and the next court date in August is a coroner's inquest which will get as far as it can before being suspended until the trial's conclusion. We might get more information made public after their Crown Court hearing next month, we might not! That's unfortunately how transparency (or the lack thereof) works in the England & Wales criminal justice system.

Can you think of any reason for such a delay for the Crown Court hearing???

All I keep thinking is that there might be facts we just do not understand or know yet....

<modsnip - off topic>

 

[Lucy6226]

The best scenario here is like others have suggested a tragic accident during an argument or something similar. However the parents have been charged with murder, not manslaughter, therefore we have to presume there is evidence to suggest there was premeditation and intent for CPS to agree with the charge.

 

[Parker Knoll]

It is a long time to move it from the Mags over to the crown for the first appearance - very odd indeed - 28 days is the statutory though it can be longer. We have a young victim here though and they are charged with murder both being in custody.
Just edited to add it looks like they will apply for bail tomorrow ( Wednesday )

 

[bobbymkii]

It is a long time to move it from the Mags over to the crown for the first appearance - very odd indeed - 28 days is the statutory though it can be longer. We have a young victim here though and they are charged with murder both being in custody.
Just edited to add it looks like they will apply for bail tomorrow ( Wednesday )

I always have my beady eye on the listings for Teesside Crown Court as it's the closest court to where I grew up. I even did jury service in there once!

 

[bobbymkii]

Can you think of any reason for such a delay for the Crown Court hearing???

All I keep thinking is that there might be facts we just do not understand or know yet....

<modsnip - off topic>

<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>

I'm certainly at a loss to work out how or why there's such a big gap between the magistrate's and crown court appearances. Wouldn't it be great if we could just have transparency in our justice system rather than having to wildly speculate all the time?

 

[Parker Knoll]

It’s not usually this long bobby you are quite right.

 

[Skigh]

Girl's final TikTok before her parents allegedly stabbed her to death

Scarlett Vickers, 14, is seen wearing a black outfit and playing with her hair as she holds her phone up in the clip, which is captioned: 'Ignore the mess pls.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Helen_Stewart]

It doesn't look like there is anything amiss in that video. She looks like a typical 14 year old girl, spending time in her bedroom. How could such behaviour in an innocuous video be linked to the horror of a few hours later?
So sad.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I think this is some kitchen argument that’s gone horribly wrong.
JMO

 

[bobbymkii]

2pm tomorrow - Teesside CC = court no 8. HIS HONOUR JUDGE J CARROLL presiding

SITTING AT 02:00 pm

For Preliminary Hearing

U20243854

Simon Vickers & Sarah Hall 11DD0225624

(Class 1) Defts by PVL to HMP Durham F-wing/ Low Newton

 

[Dotta]

I think this is some kitchen argument that’s gone horribly wrong.
JMO

But
Wouldn't it be a tragic accident?
Or manslaughter?

Besides,
It was 1 stab.
The stabber seemed to be very precise to kill with only one stab.

JMO

 

[Helen_Stewart]

But
Wouldn't it be a tragic accident?
Or manslaughter?

Both parents have been charged with murder. The CPS obviously have grounds to charge them with this, otherwise they would have been in court on a lesser charge.

 

[Dotta]

Both parents have been charged with murder. The CPS obviously have grounds to charge them with this, otherwise they would have been in court on a lesser charge.

And that was EXACTLY the point of my post.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Let’s see !

 

[bobbymkii]

I'm aiming to keep a particularly open mind while following this one

 

[BreadnLumpit]

But
Wouldn't it be a tragic accident?
Or manslaughter?

Besides,
It was 1 stab.
The stabber seemed to be very precise to kill with only one stab.

JMO

I worked with a young person many years ago, who killed a relative with a single stab wound.

It was an accident. The relatives were arguing heatedly in the kitchen, the eventual victim snatched up a knife from the draining board and lunged at the unarmed one. The unarmed one struggled to disarm his attacker and eventually did but in the physical chaos the original aggressor got a small stab wound.

Trouble was that the small stab wound hit the femoral artery and he bled out in minutes - way before the ambulance arrived.

My young colleague was charged with murder because the law dictated he should be. The matter of murder V tragic accident V manslaughter was left to the jury to decide (they found him not guilty).

Neither precision nor intent can be presumed when someone dies from a single stab wound IMO - sometimes it's just sheer, terrible, devastating bad luck.

 

[Dotta]

I worked with a young person many years ago, who killed a relative with a single stab wound.

It was an accident. The relatives were arguing heatedly in the kitchen, the eventual victim snatched up a knife from the draining board and lunged at the unarmed one. The unarmed one struggled to disarm his attacker and eventually did but in the physical chaos the original aggressor got a small stab wound.

Trouble was that the small stab wound hit the femoral artery and he bled out in minutes - way before the ambulance arrived.

My young colleague was charged with murder because the law dictated he should be. The matter of murder V tragic accident V manslaughter was left to the jury to decide (they found him not guilty).

Neither precision nor intent can be presumed when someone dies from a single stab wound IMO - sometimes it's just sheer, terrible, devastating bad luck.

My point was
that the parents were charged with MURDER, meaning intentionally killing.

The poster I quoted wrote
it might have been an argument in the kitchen.

So
I answered that in such case it would be:
- an accidental tragedy
- manslaughter

If they are charged with murder
there seemed to be no accident/argument.

But
Intentional murder.
And 1 precise stab.

I hope I'm understood now.

JMO