GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #3

[Clio]

I'm sure the report says her arms and legs weren't in the hard suitcase type item her body was found in so maybe it's possible that they could see bruising on the lower body either because

1) the exposed limbs weren't as decomposed as the part that was in the bag, then wrapped in the sheet or

2) the part that was in the sheet was more protected and her arms and legs suffered more decomposition.


If they haven't been able to give a cause of death as yet then that suggests the upper part of her body was more decomposed though.

Not sure she was in a "hard suitcase type item". That was an early report in the Daily Mail. Later reports in most papers state she was wrapped in a black sheet and put in a black bag. Some reports seem to have interpreted the black bag as being a black plastic rubbish sack.

The body of 12-year-old Tia Sharp was found wrapped in a black bedsheet in a black bag in the loft of her grandmother's house, it has emerged.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/13/tia-sharp-body-found-bedsheet-loft?newsfeed=true

 

[YidArmyRach]

But by saying:


You are suggesting that TS's death is as a result of the circumstances they created. If you do believe that the blame lies with the perpetrator, as you say above, you might want to more careful with the way you word things.

I get what she is saying and I don't think she is blaming the mum for Tias death. She's just pointing out that the circumstances created, ie that Tia appears to have lost her bedroom in order that the two new siblings had somewhere to sleep, seems to have led to her seeking other places to stay. The fact that she had a bedroom at her Gran's house means it encouraged her to go there, and that is where she met her death.

Had she had her own bedroom, a wardrobe for her clothes and a bit of personal space, it is quite likely she'd have been happy to stay at home a lot more. JMO obviously.

Poor Tia must have felt really unwanted to be the only one not deemed worthy of a bed. And the fact that she was missing school and falling behind with schoolwork, suggests that nobody really cared about her. As other people have said, why didn't the parents get a sofa bed for themselves in the living room, rather than putting themselves first.

So sad - I bet there are thousands of people out there who would have loved to have given her a decent home.

 

[soozieqtips]

Well, if blood pools into the lower part of the body after death, could that produce marks that look like bruises? Maybe these marks were observed and then this was repeated to other people, who then repeated it some more, and then it got reported!

 

[Adorabella]

Just found this interesting page on bruising: http://www.forensicindia.com/bruises.htm Spark any thoughts?

 

[soozieqtips]

I get what she is saying and I don't think she is blaming the mum for Tias death. She's just pointing out that the circumstances created, ie that Tia appears to have lost her bedroom in order that the two new siblings had somewhere to sleep, seems to have led to her seeking other places to stay. The fact that she had a bedroom at her Gran's house means it encouraged her to go there, and that is where she met her death.

Had she had her own bedroom, a wardrobe for her clothes and a bit of personal space, it is quite likely she'd have been happy to stay at home a lot more. JMO obviously.

Poor Tia must have felt really unwanted to be the only one not deemed worthy of a bed. And the fact that she was missing school and falling behind with schoolwork, suggests that nobody really cared about her. As other people have said, why didn't the parents get a sofa bed for themselves in the living room, rather than putting themselves first.

So sad - I bet there are thousands of people out there who would have loved to have given her a decent home.

Great post which makes a lot of sense.

 

[Adorabella]

And this one that explains more about smothering: http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123

 

[kaos]

Not sure she was in a "hard suitcase type item". That was an early report in the Daily Mail. Later reports in most papers state she was wrapped in a black sheet and put in a black bag. Some reports seem to have interpreted the black bag as being a black plastic rubbish sack.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/13/tia-sharp-body-found-bedsheet-loft?newsfeed=true

Think you may be right. The tabloids seem to be the only ones using a suitcase in their stories rather than the BBC/Telegraph etc.

I think my ideas about which parts were exposed still stand though.

 

[RedOwl]

And this one that explains more about smothering: http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123

That's a great article on the signs that would be visible during autopsy. I can see how it would be extremely difficult to detect especially with decomposition.

 

[YidArmyRach]

Well that's the fault of the council for not rehousing them as they should have done.

At the end of the day, there isn't an unlimited amount of council houses available. It could well be that there weren't any vacant 3 or 4 bedroom houses at that point. Councils simply don't have the money to provide bigger houses for every single family who wants one ... and if they were able to do so, then I guess it would encourage people to have more children in order to get a bigger house? I mean, I'd be tempted to do so, if it worked that way!

The gran had a council house with more bedrooms than she needed - perhaps that is the problem. If people were made to down-size when their children left home, then there might be more bigger council housing available. But thats all a bit off-topic.

 

[kaos]

Just found this interesting page on bruising: http://www.forensicindia.com/bruises.htm Spark any thoughts?

I thought this line from the article was interesting as it might explain why they delayed it even though they must have already been aware at that point of how decomposed the body was.

, and if there is any doubt the pathologist should examine the 'bruise' histologically. However, in the absence of an organising haematoma, histology may only show thepresence of haemosiderin, and even then only after approximately 48 hours.

Hmmm, on reflection, they most likely mean 48 hours after death rather than 48 hours after reaching the autopsy table.

 

[Adorabella]

That's a great article on the signs that would be visible during autopsy. I can see how it would be extremely difficult to detect especially with decomposition.

The smothering info made me wonder whether TS suffered from epilepsy? Presumably it would have been mentioned by now if she did. It would explain smothering and bruises, if she had a fit and fell face down but wouldn't explain the reaction of those who hid her body rather than call the emergency services.

Interesting info also, (albeit disturbing), on the tab for sexual assault which lists all sorts of injuries that would be visible and evidence available....although, I didn't notice bruising of the lower body as a specific. Apart from sexual assault, what would causing bruising? Beatings? Falls?

 

[kaos]

The smothering info made me wonder whether TS suffered from epilepsy? Presumably it would have been mentioned by now if she did. It would explain smothering and bruises, if she had a fit and fell face down but wouldn't explain the reaction of those who hid her body rather than call the emergency services.

Interesting info also, (albeit disturbing), on the tab for sexual assault which lists all sorts of injuries that would be visible and evidence available....although, I didn't notice bruising of the lower body as a specific. Apart from sexual assault, what would causing bruising? Beatings? Falls?

Dr G from the Discovery Channel has this to say about autopsies regarding epilepsy.

We have done several shows where people died from SUDEP (sudden unexplained death in epilepsy). It is a sudden death of an individual with a known history of seizures where a complete autopsy, microscopic slide evaluation and toxicology fail to find the cause of death. We often find that the person has stopped taking their anti-seizure medication or the dosage or medication was recently changed. It is a diagnosis of exclusion when all the other possibilities have been ruled out.
Sometimes you can tell that people have suffered from seizures by looking at the hippocampus portion of the brain, but on most people who have seizures you see nothing. Even if you see old trauma to the brain, it is difficult to tell if it caused seizures or not.

http://health.discovery.com/fansites/drg/ask-drg_02.html

 

[RedOwl]

The smothering info made me wonder whether TS suffered from epilepsy? Presumably it would have been mentioned by now if she did. It would explain smothering and bruises, if she had a fit and fell face down but wouldn't explain the reaction of those who hid her body rather than call the emergency services.

Interesting info also, (albeit disturbing), on the tab for sexual assault which lists all sorts of injuries that would be visible and evidence available....although, I didn't notice bruising of the lower body as a specific. Apart from sexual assault, what would causing bruising? Beatings? Falls?

Suffering from epilepsy could be a possible theory. Although I do think it would have come up by now in the media and I also think they would have just called an ambulance rather than panicked and hid the body.
I think honestly the bruising could be from a number of things. Possibly beatings like you said? If Tia had been playing truant from school, of course we can't take this as confirmed, she may have been being bullied there?

 

[MobyBluff]

If Tia had been playing truant from school, of course we can't take this as confirmed, she may have been being bullied there?

The schools were well into their summer holidays

 

[India99]

Being a local I can tell you that there are very few posters advertising any fair. The fair is not on a normal route Tia would take (between Merton and Croydon and Addington), and I doubt very very much she would know where Ashburton Park is anyway.

And nobody remembers anyone asking about a missing girl because they didn't go to the fair to pretend to be looking for her, so they didn't ask anyone, so why were they there?.....imo

but as we now know, the 130 bus goes right past the fair

and who is "AN" that people keep mentioning ?

 

[RedOwl]

The schools were well into their summer holidays

True. But bullying can go on outside of school.

 

[Adorabella]

If Tia had been playing truant from school, of course we can't take this as confirmed, she may have been being bullied there?

Sadly, you could be right. Bullies/ abusers usually prey on those perceived to be weak and easy targets.

If TS was unhappy at home and/ or being beaten/ abused there, she would have been a prime target for anyone else looking for a 'victim,' whether that was at school or at her G'ma's.

It also seems that TS was petite for her age, so unless she was a tough little girl, may have not had the wherewithall to fight back or stand her ground, if necessary.

On the other hand, she may well have taken after what we know of G'ma (having spent time with her and SH) and been a little too tough and ended up winding people up and getting into trouble that way.

Or may have just developed bruising through playing and getting up to the usual mischief of childhood.

Tragic.

 

[kaos]

but as we now know, the 130 bus goes right past the fair

and who is "AN" that people keep mentioning ?

If you go to either page 1 of this thread or look below the forum at 'tags', the main names are listed there.


E.T.A. I'll have to take that back as this is the first time I haven't seen Destroyer's post listing all the names within the first couple of posts of the thread

 

[Inge Jones]

Councils simply don't have the money to provide bigger houses for every single family who wants one

Because the government encouraged them to sell them at half price and they were not allowed to put the money into building or acquiring new ones. And at the same time they introduced this "assured shorthold" type tenancy that removed any security or stability from families renting privately. IMHO that makes it still the fault of the authorities.

 

[Clio]

but as we now know, the 130 bus goes right past the fair

But, as far as I can tell from looking at the route map, it doesn't go to the Whitgift centre which is where she had supposedly gone - is that right?

and who is "AN" that people keep mentioning ?

The mother of DN, NS's current partner