GUILTY UK - Tia Sharp, 12, New Addington, London, 3 Aug 2012 #3

[Luna15]

I wonder if this indiscretion, if it is true, is known to police and if so might it be disallowed from being told in trial? Like Tabak's fascination with strangulation and weird sexual preferences were. Which seemed bizarre to me: it was like they had to prove his guilt without that big fat motive right there.

Sadly with many families like this in Britain there is very little social services can do. I worked with a girl once who I knew smoked drugs at home, often with friends and boyfriend, and had a young baby there the whole time. Really appalling. Sounds like that isn't half as bad as what the situation may have been like for Tia.

'

We know how the law of our wonderful land works graceholl.... any 'previous known' mustn't be allowed to prejudice a jury.

So are you saying Granny and the rest of the family visiting in would not have smelt anything because they all were off their heads with drugs-does that include Uncle David -the family spokesman?

this is genuinely MY supposition..... some drugs carry a pungent smell..... I notice Granny didn't go far without her ciggies...

 

[Luna15]

I would suggest you edit/delete the relevant posts

well, everyone that's quoted me will have to go to the inconvenience of editing theirs

 

[YidArmyRach]

THe smell would have been very strong after 3/4 days.

I'm wondering why CS/SH's own dogs didn't notice anything. Admittedly, they aren't trained to search for and locate dead bodies, but any dog will have a massively enhanced sense of smell, and you'd expect them to be sniffing the air and perhaps indicating something.

Also, wouldn't they recognise the smell as being Tia and try to find her? My own dogs go mad if they are inside and my boys are in the garden without them, or even if the boys are upstairs and they can't get there. The dogs won't settle, as they think they are missing something, and will do all they can to get to the children.

For example, if we go for a walk in the woods, I'll hold my German Shepherd whilst the boys go off and hide, I won't let her see them at all and they don't make a sound ......... when I let her off the lead, she finds them within a few seconds by following their scent. She's totally untrained, but I bet she'd notice if there was a dead body in the loft.

 

[Skigh]

I'm wondering why CS/SH's own dogs didn't notice anything. Admittedly, they aren't trained to search for and locate dead bodies, but any dog will have a massively enhanced sense of smell, and you'd expect them to be sniffing the air and perhaps indicating something.

Also, wouldn't they recognise the smell as being Tia and try to find her? My own dogs go mad if they are inside and my boys are in the garden without them, or even if the boys are upstairs and they can't get there. The dogs won't settle, as they think they are missing something, and will do all they can to get to the children.

For example, if we go for a walk in the woods, I'll hold my German Shepherd whilst the boys go off and hide, I won't let her see them at all and they don't make a sound ......... when I let her off the lead, she finds them within a few seconds by following their scent. She's totally untrained, but I bet she'd notice if there was a dead body in the loft.

I do not think that SH/CS's dogs were loving family pets.

I think my cat would indicate to someone that there was a problem had I been stuck in the loft!!

 

[graceholl]

Edited out the quotes I'd used from other FMs in my previous posts re: rumours. Just in case anyone was wondering why it says 'edited out'

 

[India99]

I feel incredibly frustrated that I have been away since Tuesday, had no internet access and hardly watched the News, I just haven't had time to read back from page 36 on the last thread, which is where I left it...

anyway something weird happened yesterday... I care for a very elderley relative in S E London, I have to travel from Herts 2/3 days a week...

Yesterday my elderley relative had workmen in the house, and it turns out that one of them lives on the estate that Tia lived on what and his son was a close friend of hers :what: - I dont know how much I can say because obviously everything I heard was 'word on the street' (although I dont doubt it!) but I have been left in no doubt that SH is responsible, he more than likely acted alone, Class A drugs featured HEAVILY ALL AROUND Tia, Social Services failed her miserably!! I find myself not feeling a great deal of sympathy for Tia's mother right now EDITED

I pray to God above that Justice is done for Tia, EVERYONE around her failed her in life, her Mother was right "this should not have happened"...I feel quite sure that Tia is more at peace where she is, than she ever was, or likely would be down here.....

:tears:

erm most of it is still there

 

[ScotsPaddy]

Re The Fair,i know ive crapped on the idea of SH asking travellers for help but,what if he did?,im 50/50 on whether the travellers would tell the police anyway,not to protect SH but thats just what travellers do,they dont talk to police,about anything..

I could quite believe the social services didnt do more,they were in and out of my sons lives for 10+yrs and really did nothing apart from pamper to my ex.
I will add in social services defense that they do have a massive workload and a huge amount of clients that they have to deal with and it is a mainly thankless job..

 

[India99]

Re The Fair,i know ive crapped on the idea of SH asking travellers for help but,what if he did?,im 50/50 on whether the travellers would tell the police anyway,not to protect SH but thats just what travellers do,they dont talk to police,about anything..

I could quite believe the social services didnt do more,they were in and out of my sons lives for 10+yrs and really did nothing apart from pamper to my ex.
I will add in social services defense that they do have a massive workload and a huge amount of clients that they have to deal with and it is a mainly thankless job..

i think if he'd ask travellers to help him get rid of a body, chances are you'd be looking for his too.

travellers protect their kids like you wouldn't believe so i really dont think their attitude would change about somebody elses.

 

[Paulette]

well, everyone that's quoted me will have to go to the inconvenience of editing theirs

Notify a mod, they'll clean em up quickly.

 

[Paulette]

Originally Posted by Skigh
So are you saying Granny and the rest of the family visiting in would not have smelt anything because they all were off their heads with drugs-does that include Uncle David -the family spokesman?

He was the only one in the family that had a good skin & looked healthy. I wondered about the rest of the family - I put it down to poor diet. Geez...

 

[MobyBluff]

Would there be any cctv or number plate recognition. CS could be worried about evidence left in her car.

...so they needed another vehicle that couldn't be traced, a traveller's vehicle perhaps? Just saying... ;-)

 

[MobyBluff]

Re:CS. She alerted police almost straight away. There's no way she'd do that if she could have bought them more time to get the story straight/hide the body. Even if SH was behaving strangely afterwards this could easily have been put down to stress and worry. The only discrepancy is the fair, which could be explained as her making up a story as she felt guilty at not searching hard enough when Tia was first missing.
Initially I wasn't sure but now I'm thinking she's probably innocent.

If the police thought CS was "probably innocent" would they have arrested her on suspicion of murder? I know she was bailed, but the Police have far more information than us and still she is on bail for suspicion of murder.

 

[Adorabella]

G'morning all!

Just caught up on all the posts since last night and having gone to bed with a million thoughts about this going around in my head, have woken up with just one main thought, which is that I think we are possibly being too clever. I think that the most obvious answers are most likely the right answers as the people involved appear not to be the smartest of people and are possibly used to behaving dishonestly as a matter of course.

Fr'instance: an incident occurs in which Tia Sharp dies (not sure that I think it was premeditated), so perhaps she was introduced to drugs by SH and had a very bad reaction. If he was also using at the same time, maybe his thought processes would be addled (if they weren't already) and he did the first thing that came to mind, not necessarily the cleverest: he wrapped her up and put her in the loft. Who knows - perhaps the neighbour was also part of this 'party?' and saw what happened and helped put Tia up in the loft?

G'ma comes home and SH tells her Tia is out shopping - the first thing that comes to mind that removes her from the estate and allows for the possibility that she will later go 'missing.'

Supper time comes and goes - no sign of Tia.

Not sure I was convinced from the interview that a fair was ever visited, but if it was, G'ma may have gone along in good faith looking out for Tia.

No sign of Tia, so they go home to check once more before heading to NS and then have put themselves in a situation where they have to call (and most likely want to - apart from SH) the authorities as by now it's after 9pm (or at least that's what I gathered from the interview).

Body still in loft.

At what point now that the house is constantly inhabited by G'ma and other members of the family plus police/ press can SH do anything about removing the body?

I think he was surviving on hope rather than any thought out process and was just fortunate in the first few days that nothing was discovered. Also, if he was drugged at the time of the 'incident,' it may somehow have become a dream-like memory for him, where he was dissociated from the part he played, which also lessened the guilt, so that he was able to some extent, play the role he had carved out for himself. (Never taken a drug so have no idea what they do...all guess work).

If a visit was not made to the fair, then we have NO proof that G'ma colluded. I think at this point she may have begun to realise more about the situation and spoke with someone about her concerns. Maybe she and DS together said something. Plus, as people have mentioned, there must have been a stench in the air, hence the final search which was brought forward.

I don't think it was any more complicated than that.

Now I am exhausted and need to put the kettle on.

 

[MobyBluff]

you can imagine my shock graceholl!! I dont want to jeopardise anything (it's all 'gossip' anyway) BUT I hope his past indiscretion does come out eventually.... I feel really angry today, she should have been removed from their care, that kid didn't stand a chance, EDITED what makes me absolutely furious is, that thanks to the police not finding her, the truth might never be EDITED .... I felt ashamed at one point for judging them on appearances..... not anymore!!

Arghhhhh!!!! How VERY annoying that I turn off my PC to give my brain a chance to settle before bedtime, to log on this morning to find that Luna is sharing rumours that have been heard - and I missed them. Damn damn damn.

 

[Adorabella]

If the police thought CS was "probably innocent" would they have arrested her on suspicion of murder? I know she was bailed, but the Police have far more information than us and still she is on bail for suspicion of murder.

Isn't this a similar situation to the landlord in the Joanna Yeates case, who was eventually proved to be totally innocent?

 

[MobyBluff]

G'morning all!

Just caught up on all the posts since last night and having gone to bed with a million thoughts about this going around in my head, have woken up with just one main thought, which is that I think we are possibly being too clever. I think that the most obvious answers are most likely the right answers as the people involved appear not to be the smartest of people and are possibly used to behaving dishonestly as a matter of course.

Fr'instance: an incident occurs in which Tia Sharp dies (not sure that I think it was premeditated), so perhaps she was introduced to drugs by SH and had a very bad reaction. If he was also using at the same time, maybe his thought processes would be addled (if they weren't already) and he did the first thing that came to mind, not necessarily the cleverest: he wrapped her up and put her in the loft. Who knows - perhaps the neighbour was also part of this 'party?' and saw what happened and helped put Tia up in the loft? That would explain the neighbours charge of assisting...

G'ma comes home and SH tells her Tia is out shopping - the first thing that comes to mind that removes her from the estate and allows for the possibility that she will later go 'missing.'

Supper time comes and goes - no sign of Tia.

Not sure I was convinced from the interview that a fair was ever visited, but if it was, G'ma may have gone along in good faith looking out for Tia. The fair thing is mind boggling, i repeat my view that without Tia expressing an interest in the fair why would they choose the fair as a place to search for her when there are SO many places she could have gone?

No sign of Tia, so they go home to check once more before heading to NS and then have put themselves in a situation where they have to call (and most likely want to - apart from SH) the authorities as by now it's after 9pm (or at least that's what I gathered from the interview).

Body still in loft.

At what point now that the house is constantly inhabited by G'ma and other members of the family plus police/ press can SH do anything about removing the body?

I think he was surviving on hope rather than any thought out process and was just fortunate in the first few days that nothing was discovered. Also, if he was drugged at the time of the 'incident,' it may somehow have become a dream-like memory for him, where he was dissociated from the part he played, which also lessened the guilt, so that he was able to some extent, play the role he had carved out for himself. (Never taken a drug so have no idea what they do...all guess work). I know the Police have apologised publicly for not finding Tia's body on the first full search but does that mean we should dismiss the possibility that it hadn't been moved back - even though moving a body back into that house with the police and press presence would be difficult - unless it was moved over the low back fence from next door in the middle of the night??

If a visit was not made to the fair, then we have NO proof that G'ma colluded. I think at this point she may have begun to realise more about the situation and spoke with someone about her concerns. Maybe she and DS together said something. Plus, as people have mentioned, there must have been a stench in the air, hence the final search which was brought forward. Was the stench actually next door, could it be that PM was now getting concerned and told them they have to have it back?

I don't think it was any more complicated than that.

Now I am exhausted and need to put the kettle on.

Strong, no sugar, thanks ;-)


I think you'll find a hell of a lot of what you have just said turns out to be on the money, but have asked a few questions above to keep the sleuthing going....

;-)

 

[MobyBluff]

Isn't this a similar situation to the landlord in the Joanna Yeates case, who was eventually proved to be totally innocent?

Quite possibly, but I'm trying to work out what grounds for suspicion the Police had if G'ma was working until 2pm.....

 

[Jackalyn]

Just got back from a break and I am confused. Why is Ashburton park being mentioned when the fair there was on June 2 and also called off because of rain? Why on earth would SH mention it as it would be a dead give away that he did NOT go to any fair and it is in LOWER Addiscombe. The 130 goes along the UPPER Addiscombe bus route and is a fair way away. Also that particular fair associated itself with the Jubilee, and was called off because of the torrential rain. Which fair denied seeing SH and CS? I can't find a fair on any date that fits.

I did think of something. The type of place CS worked in - sometimes in those sort of jobs you cannot leave till the next person arrives and can end up doing a double shift as they do not. You can be very late if you are the only person on that night (a relative used to work in similar and end up in this situation often.) However, there woud be work records to prove the hours CS worked and it would be unlikely she could leave that sort of job to nip home. Surely the police will have checked that?

Also I am fairly sure you can date the date of a death from the degree of decomposition/ tell what the last meal was from stomach contents etc.

 

[Inge Jones]

For those of you who don't know what a decomposing body smells like, I can tell you my experience with a rat under my floorboards. It started off like cabbage cooking, for the first couple of days. Then it got like that cooked cabbage going bad in a dustbin in hot weather. Then until the end of the week it was like an rotting cabbage mixed with strong ammonia that was irritating our eyes.

The rat was under the floor on the lower floor, and sitting in an upstairs room with the doors closed between didn't stop it. We did realise what it must be, but were hoping it would sort of mummify and stop smelling.

By the end of the week we were nearly choking, so we pulled up the carpet and got the boards up. At this stage the rat had a green swollen belly and was lying in a damp patch of leaked fluid but was otherwise recognisable. I picked it up on a shovel and put it in several layers of plastic bag. Then I covered the leaked fluids with cat litter. At this point the smell ceased - so plastic bags that are airtight can stop the smell.

I imagine that fluids can seep out of the bag after a time depending how it is fastened, and at this point, the smell begins to spread.

 

[Adorabella]

Morning Moby - would you like toast with that tea?

Hmm....I think the mention of the fair was said on the spur of the moment. SH was on a roll, he was centre of attention and was trying to embellish his story as he (wrongly) felt that the more info he gave the more convincing it would be. He mentioned the fair (having remembered that there was one advertised in the local paper) but couldn't quite remember where it was...and sometimes it's exactly these moments that begin to unravel the entire story. No idea of route but maybe they drove past a fair (I don't even think they did that but....)?

Regarding moving the body - I honestly don't think that they did, nor that they had an opportunity to. I think acting on the spur of the moment is one thing but moving a decomposing dead body that the world and his wife are on the lookout for is another. Also, I just don't think SH is smart enough to have thought ahead that much.

SH has not been a successful criminal, as far as I can tell, having been charged (is that the correct word) more than 30 times in his 'career.' I just don't think he's that bright (and he clearly has a drug or alcohol problem and was most likely not sober at all throughout the entire week we were watching him, if ever).

I think there was an element of magical thinking going on - that even when the body was found, which it always was going to be, that he thought having given such (ahem) convincing performances, he may get away with it but with his history he probably didn't expect to get away with it.

Also, if he didn't 'murder' Tia and her death resulted from taking drugs for example, there may be less guilt than if he had actively killed her. He cleaned up the 'mess' but didn't feel responsible for it. Does that make sense? He may also have witnessed other deaths from drugs if he's been involved with them for some time and be less shocked by such things. Would account for the fact that he could sit and give interviews underneath where the body was rotting.

I think the only things the rest of the family are guilty of are neglect of Tia (in so many ways) that hanging out with her G'ma's criminal/ druggie boyfriend was preferable to having nowhere else to go and not joining the dots sooner.