GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #3

[Bravo]

see everybody back here tomorrow have a safe Halloween!

You as well. Happy Halloween everyone :seeya:

 

[minor4th]

Question for the medical people on this board.

I know that if a person is found dead inside a burning building but has no soot/ash in his windpipe or lungs that he was dead before the fire began.

This last doctor said cause was combination of bad heart and drugs. Right?

Michele wasn't dead when she was submerged in the tub by MacNeill. Her lungs according to CPR people had several cups of water in them. To the point that two CPR'ers had to go get their clothes changed.

Why didn't this doctor say drowning was a contributing factor?

I don't think anyone has made that conclusion that the water came from her lungs. It was reported that the vomited or regurgitated the water - which led me to believe it was water she swallowed. Either way - she wasn't dead when she was submerged in water, like you said.

 

[renatae]

Actually they are:

Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O. or DO) is a professional doctorate for Physician and Surgeon offered by medical schools in the United State. Holders of the D.O. degree have attained the ability to become licensed as Osteopathic who have equivalent rights, privileges, and responsibilities as a Physician with a doctor of medicine degree in medicine (M.D). D.O. physicians are licensed to practice the full scope of a Medical Doctor.
Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even though their educations are roughly equivalent, their choice of course of study and passing of boards leads to licensure as either DO or MD.

ETA: Should have said "where they go to school" instead of "course of study."

 

[Apollo]

Is Dr. Perper on the witness list?

tia

Yes---he's coming up tomorrow.

 

[YESorNO]

I am concerned about the Arnica question....sounds like a juror who is trying to play detective....IMO

Where did the juror get the "arnica" info?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

You as well. Happy Halloween everyone :seeya:

Happy Halloween.. I'll most likely be on the laptop. Dh takes the kids out, I hand candy out so I am stuck here... With my fresh baked Oatmeal cookies, candles and coffee. It is not so bad..

 

[Nore]

Great point.

-----
I heard the Doctor tell DT.. he wasnt sure of the amount of water that was in her body. Didnt anyone tell them of the EMT's having to change clothes because of amount of water?

 

[seattlechiquita]

Where did the juror get the "arnica" info?

I think it was mentioned during Alexis' testimony.

p.s. I puffy heart Arnica.

 

[Apollo]

Where did the juror get the "arnica" info?

From Alexis's testimony (or that's where I got it from anyway)

 

[Isabelle]

Intraosseous vascular access was first introduced by Drinker in 1922 as a method for accessing noncollapsible venous plexuses through the bone marrow cavity to systemic circulation. The method was abandoned with the development of intravenous catheters until the 1980s, when intraosseous access was reintroduced, particularly for rapid fluid infusion during resuscitation.[1]

http://reference.medscape.com/article/80431-overview

Intraosseous vasc access was included in Pediatric advanced life support when I last took it. Gives me the heebeejeebes!

 

[Zuri]

Question for the medical people on this board.

I know that if a person is found dead inside a burning building but has no soot/ash in his windpipe or lungs that he was dead before the fire began.

This last doctor said cause was combination of bad heart and drugs. Right?

Michele wasn't dead when she was submerged in the tub by MacNeill. Her lungs according to CPR people had several cups of water in them. To the point that two CPR'ers had to go get their clothes changed.

Why didn't this doctor say drowning was a contributing factor?

This is a good question. I wish the autopsy report was available. His cause of death was "undetermined" which is so ambiguous IMO and answers zero. I need to relisten to his testimony and I will also ask Dr. Zuri. Sorry I don't know.

 

[CUCKOOHEAD]

I don't think anyone has made that conclusion that the water came from her lungs. It was reported that the vomited or regurgitated the water - which led me to believe it was water she swallowed. Either way - she wasn't dead when she was submerged in water, like you said.

When you die your system shuts down. Undigested food in the stomach remains undigested. I thought that if any water or fluid is expelled during CPR it is being flushed from the lungs.

 

[Isabelle]

ME unable to determine cause of death, esp when it comes to the possibility of drowning. Michele did have a fair amount of water either in her lungs or stomach that was expelled with resuscitation. If Michele was not breathing and in the process of dying , due to drugs, when her head was held underwater, she may have had what is called agonal respirations that caused her to take in water, but not of a sufficient amount to look like drowning.

 

[Apollo]

Here's the highlight that I'll remember from today: That nasty nasty comment the Defense Attorney made to Alexis after cross. It wasn't just the comment but the look on his face when he said it and the look he continued to have when he sat down. Plus the raised voice. I'd make a terrible juror because I'd hold it against him and his client.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Totally OT: I just ate mac and cheese + a hot link for lunch and holy shhhhh I feel super heavy and sleepy. Ok, carry on.

 

[MagicRose99]

Even though their educations are roughly equivalent, their choice of course of study and passing of boards leads to licensure as either DO or MD.

The point is: "The fact is that both DOs and MDs are fully qualified physicians licensed to prescribe medication and perform surgery"

DOs and MDs are Alike in Many Ways

• Students entering both DO and MD medical colleges typically have already completed four-year bachelor's degrees with an emphasis on scientific courses.
• Both DOs and MDs complete four years of basic medical education.
• After medical school, both DOs and MDs obtain graduate medical education through internships, residencies and fellowships. This training lasts three to eight years and prepares DOs and MDs to practice a specialty.
• Both DOs and MDs can choose to practice in any specialty of medicine—such as pediatrics, family medicine, psychiatry, surgery or ophthalmology.
• DOs and MDs must pass comparable examinations to obtain state licenses.
• DOs and MDs both practice in accredited and licensed health care facilities.
• Together, DOs and MDs enhance the state of health care available in the U.S.

http://www.osteopathic.org/OSTEOPATHIC-HEALTH/ABOUT-DOS/WHAT-IS-A-DO/Pages/default.aspx

 

[minor4th]

When you die your system shuts down. Undigested food in the stomach remains undigested. I thought that if any water or fluid is expelled during CPR it is being flushed from the lungs.

I really don't know.

 

[CUCKOOHEAD]

Totally OT: I just ate mac and cheese + a hot link for lunch and holy shhhhh I feel super heavy and sleepy. Ok, carry on.

Sounds delish! Now don't you have a couple of bags of candy for the kids later on? Check your supplies and I say eat a few to check out their freshness. I ate a few of the large tootsie rolls yesterday. I could have painted my house before nightfall. :floorlaugh:

 

[digitalwindows]

There are some facts that they are not going to be able to explain away when it comes to Michele's death. There was no reason for the amount of drugs to be in Michele's system at her time of death. There was no reason whatsoever for Michele to have Ambien in her system at the time of her death. There was no reason whatsoever for Michele, who knew her sensitivity to narcotics, to attempt to take a bath when home alone when she was under the influence of all of the medications that she had in her system. If the jury remembers the above then all of the other nonsense that the defense is trying to "prove" will not matter at all, IMO.

Very well put! From your fingertips to God's ears. That is exactly what the Michelle Macneill's loved ones are hoping happens! I hope this jury has the nerve to convict this man on this evidence. I think they will. You just never know how a jury is going to take the evidence.

 

[RabidBadger]

ME unable to determine cause of death, esp when it comes to the possibility of drowning. Michele did have a fair amount of water either in her lungs or stomach that was expelled with resuscitation. If Michele was not breathing and in the process of dying , due to drugs, when her head was held underwater, she may have had what is called agonal respirations that caused her to take in water, but not of a sufficient amount to look like drowning.

Bingo.

Oversedation from the drug cocktail producing respiratory depression.