VA - Amy Bradley, 23, Petersburg, 24 March 1998 - #3

[Sillybilly]

:wink: http://web.archive.org/web/20040903105016/http://www.kayerose.com/Articles/articles40.html

That archived page is the KRM lawfirm that represented Royal Caribbean. Do we have a legal government resource for the case?

 

[Hiandmighty]

That archived page is the KRM lawfirm that represented Royal Caribbean. Do we have a legal government resource for the case?

Not that I have found, but I did link a CNN article with information a few pages ago....

 

[Sillybilly]

I'm guessing that is due to age, not a conspiracy. A lot of older articles will get taken down. I'll bet we could find them using the Wayback Machine, if we had the original links to start with.


I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I just want the facts. I'm not interested in discrediting anybody; I just want to theorize what might have happened with Amy. But people need to be willing to look at ALL of the facts, not just the ones that fit the narrative that they like best. And we need to separate the actual facts from speculations and opinions. I mean, I'm sorry, but some guy glaring at Amy from the top deck does not equal "he was planning to kidnap her." I mean, the poor guy could have had the sun in his eyes.

I'm totally open to the idea that Amy could have been abducted and murdered, or abducted and taken off the ship. I'm also open to the idea that she fell overboard, because I believe in being open to every possibility.

I wasn't definitely suggesting a conspiracy wrt MSM articles not being available .. just pointing out how difficult it is to provide MSM links to support information that we've previously had access to. (I do however know that it can be arranged to have info removed from the big ol' web, as we seem to experience in many other cases ... there one day, gone the next.)

I also was not suggesting that you were discrediting theories (just jumping off your post re the MSM articles). Like you, I am open to possibilities, but IMO there is little to substantiate an accident or suicide theory, while there is a lot that appears to substantiate the theory of foul play (unless of course we discount the numerous and sundry sources previously referred to).

 

[Hiandmighty]

Well, let me give you a counter-point.

In terms of falling overboard or drowning, it seems in most articles (and discussions) that possibility was immediately dismissed because Amy was a trained lifeguard.

So that's it? Lifeguards don't drown? It's such an overlooked possibility in my opinion, especially from my point of view as a boater, as I discussed pages ago.

One example of a lifeguard who drowned recently: http://abc7.com/news/newport-beach-lifeguard-drowns-during-rescue-attempt/161931/

I quoted an article that stated Amy felt seasick, which means the seas were on the rough side. If she fell in, she is in danger, no matter how close to shore they are. Sea search and rescues are very hard, she would have had no flotation devices and it is possible she sunk or was carried out to sea even farther than where ever her point of entry was.

That's all I'm saying. There is plenty of meat in this theory and the fact that she was a trained lifeguard means nothing here. Lifeguards do drown. People do drown. Close to shore. In the middle of an ocean. In a lake. In a river. In shallow water. In a swimming pool. It happens all the time.

 

[Sillybilly]

Well, let me give you a counter-point.

In terms of falling overboard or drowning, it seems in most articles (and discussions) that possibility was immediately dismissed because Amy was a trained lifeguard.

So that's it? Lifeguards don't drown? It's such an overlooked possibility in my opinion, especially from my point of view as a boater, as I discussed pages ago.

I suppose lifeguards can drown (although I'm not aware of any in that regard), but did Amy change her clothes, take her cigarettes and lighter, and go up the elevator with AD, drink or not drink a dark liquid handed to her by AD, not come back down the elevator with AD, but fall into the water from the disco? Combine that with the missing pics, the various reported sightings (right down to 100 or so who think she's doing well and the others that found her to be under duress), the FBI info, the sketch artist, the forensic analyst.

As to your prior reference to an hysterical and frantic mother, (you're talking here to a parent who has lost 2) ... mom's tend to be that way when their babies suddenly disappear. To say that witnesses would tell a parent anything just because they are intimidated by the situation, IMO is ludicrous. If you are aware of this having happened elsewhere, I'd appreciate reading about it.

 

[Hiandmighty]

I'd love it if anyone can provide a point where it was discovered she changed clothes. I noticed in the early articles, it doesn't mention a change of clothes, but I can't really pin point where it started to be in the reports.

My point about the witnesses and the distressed mother- eyewitness reports are notoriously unreliable (I assume I don't have to provide a link for that since it is common knowledge) and then throw in a frantic and desperate mother (yes, she had every right to be).... All I'm saying is maybe the did see her and maybe they didn't. Or maybe they saw her and the timing was off. I guess it could be another of the hundreds (thousands?) of unsubstantiated eyewitness reports the Bradleys have gotten over the last 17 years.

That is the part that is awful for this family. 17 years later and Amy is still no where to be found.

I don't presume to know how that feels for the Bradleys. I imagine it is the most horrific thing that can happen to a parent, and frankly, I don't know how they are even able to stay upright much less get through a day.

I know they believe she is alive and they want her to be alive, but the sad reality is... That doesn't mean she is alive. She is either alive or she is dead. They are both possible at this point.

Until Amy turns up (IF she ever turns up), anything is possible.

 

[Dushi]

I'm guessing that is due to age, not a conspiracy. A lot of older articles will get taken down. I'll bet we could find them using the Wayback Machine, if we had the original links to start with.




I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I just want the facts. I'm not interested in discrediting anybody; I just want to theorize what might have happened with Amy. But people need to be willing to look at ALL of the facts, not just the ones that fit the narrative that they like best. And we need to separate the actual facts from speculations and opinions. I mean, I'm sorry, but some guy glaring at Amy from the top deck does not equal "he was planning to kidnap her." I mean, the poor guy could have had the sun in his eyes.

I'm totally open to the idea that Amy could have been abducted and murdered, or abducted and taken off the ship. I'm also open to the idea that she fell overboard, because I believe in being open to every possibility.

Thank you

 

[Sillybilly]

I'd love it if anyone can provide a point where it was discovered she changed clothes. I noticed in the early articles, it doesn't mention a change of clothes, but I can't really pin point where it started to be in the reports.

My point about the witnesses and the distressed mother- eyewitness reports are notoriously unreliable (I assume I don't have to provide a link for that since it is common knowledge) and then throw in a frantic and desperate mother (yes, she had every right to be).... All I'm saying is maybe the did see her and maybe they didn't. Or maybe they saw her and the timing was off. I guess it could be another of the hundreds (thousands?) of unsubstantiated eyewitness reports the Bradleys have gotten over the last 17 years.

That is the part that is awful for this family. 17 years later and Amy is still no where to be found.

I don't presume to know how that feels for the Bradleys. I imagine it is the most horrific thing that can happen to a parent, and frankly, I don't know how they are even able to stay upright much less get through a day.

I know they believe she is alive and they want her to be alive, but the sad reality is... That doesn't mean she is alive. She is either alive or she is dead. They are both possible at this point.

Until Amy turns up (IF she ever turns up), anything is possible.

IIRC, it was in the Vanished episode ... her family had noticed that she changed clothes. (Sorry, I can't view again due to my bandwidth overages now costing me $250 per month )

No scenario can be considered a reality until/unless it can ultimately be proven one way or another. If it can be proven Amy went overboard accidentally and can never be found, end of story, no crime sleuthing involved there. If, as her family believes, she didn't go overboard, then indications are that foul play was involved, and I think we should support them in that possible reality by aiding them in their quest to find their daughter.

As an aside ... what I don't understand are the insinuations (found elsewhere, paraphrased here) that it is supposedly known what happened to Amy, we will be surprised by the simplicity of it all when we find out, leaking information could endanger her, but that forums will be of no value in finding her. We've sleuthed for years, and without new information, hard as heck to know what to even sleuth on.

 

[Hiandmighty]

Oh I agree. If it is "dangerous" to Amy for forums to discuss details, why doesn't her family just ask WS to shut down all threads regarding Amy? I woud think if they have credible evidence supporting the danger aspect, I know I personally wouldn't want to endanger anyone in peril... Seems to me WS would agree and it seems reasonable.

For those who want to explore a "going overboard" theory, I found this interesting article about what to do IF you find yourself overboard on a cruise ship/ferry:

http://gadling.com/2013/07/02/cruise-survival-skills-falling-overboard/

(Be sure to watch the YouTube video on this page if you can)

 

[88keys]

IIRC, it was in the Vanished episode ... her family had noticed that she changed clothes. (Sorry, I can't view again due to my bandwidth overages now costing me $250 per month )

It was in something I quoted a page or two back. Her father was the one who said she had changed clothes. I'm wondering how he knew that. Was there a pile of clothing on the floor? Missing shoes?

As an aside ... what I don't understand are the insinuations (found elsewhere, paraphrased here) that it is supposedly known what happened to Amy, we will be surprised by the simplicity of it all when we find out, leaking information could endanger her, but that forums will be of no value in finding her. We've sleuthed for years, and without new information, hard as heck to know what to even sleuth on.

Yes. This. Exactly. If it's already known what happened to her, and it's so simple, why are we bothering to sleuth in the first place? And why do people keep posting the same info over and over again? It seems like every theory we come up with is shot down by those who are supposedly on in the inside, but then we are told not to give up. Frustrating...and suspicious...

 

[88keys]

Well, let me give you a counter-point.

In terms of falling overboard or drowning, it seems in most articles (and discussions) that possibility was immediately dismissed because Amy was a trained lifeguard.

So that's it? Lifeguards don't drown? It's such an overlooked possibility in my opinion, especially from my point of view as a boater, as I discussed pages ago.

Also, people forget that, if she or anyone else went overboard, they fell from a great height. The fall itself could be fatal. At the very least, it probably would have knocked them unconscious. People don't realize that hitting water at a high rate of speed or from a great height is like hitting concrete. It's not like jumping into a swimming pool.

 

[Sillybilly]

It was in something I quoted a page or two back. Her father was the one who said she had changed clothes. I'm wondering how he knew that. Was there a pile of clothing on the floor? Missing shoes?

<rsbm>

I can only assume (yeah ) that the clothing she was wearing earlier (would be known by her brother and then her dad when he saw her on the balcony) was found in the cabin after she disappeared.

 

[Hiandmighty]

Oh, and I hear you about the bandwidth limits. My ISP started doing that and it is making me crazy!!!

Like I have said several times, I am new to WS and came for Sheila Mack. I found Amy Bradley in a mention on a Hannah Graham post. It seemed such a one-sided discussion like no one was able to freely discuss an overboard theory and in looking up everything I could read on Amy, all the articles say her family dismissed an overboard theory because she "is a trained lifeguard." Period. The end. Not entertaining the idea.

And here we are 17 years later with no Amy. Maybe the ONE thing they refused to consider is the thing that happened.... I want to discuss the idea because it is very very possible it could be what happened. It is a valuable angle to discuss and since it seems like no one had discussed it before, why not discuss it???

What else can we talk about? Innuendo that Amy's rescue will happen at any moment by a joint FBI and Interpol recovery?

I'd rather discuss the overboard theory. Why not? I mean, if we are waiting for her rescue, can we at least bide our time talking about possibilities?

 

[Hiandmighty]

Also, people forget that, if she or anyone else went overboard, they fell from a great height. The fall itself could be fatal. At the very least, it probably would have knocked them unconscious. People don't realize that hitting water at a high rate of speed or from a great height is like hitting concrete. It's not like jumping into a swimming pool.

She could have hit the ship itself going down and sustained a head injury before she hit the water. She could have had the gasp reflex, causing immediate drowning. She could have broken her neck or back hitting the water. She could have gotten sucked under the ship long enough to drown.

People fall off their boats and drown 1/4 mile offshore.

she would have had no personal flotation device. This is critical to survival.

Plenty of possibilities here....

 

[Hiandmighty]

This link discusses in water survival and defines "cold water" as water below 91 degrees F. As I mentioned pages ago, Southern Carribbean water is actually colder than Western Carribbean water and at Curaçao, averages around 80 degrees F in March.

http://www.mita.org/files/pdf/mita_in_water_survival.pdf

And here is a slightly outdated cruise critic q and a about falling overboard. It discussed technology that detects large items that go overboard and posters recount what happened when a person went overboard on their cruise:

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=5677

 

[trenchmouth]

She could have hit the ship itself going down and sustained a head injury before she hit the water. She could have had the gasp reflex, causing immediate drowning. She could have broken her neck or back hitting the water. She could have gotten sucked under the ship long enough to drown.

People fall off their boats and drown 1/4 mile offshore.

she would have had no personal flotation device. This is critical to survival.

Plenty of possibilities here....

Or have you thought she could have been abducted by AD and taken off the ship? Just throwing that out there for consideration.

 

[Hiandmighty]

http://www.insideedition.com/investigative/6287-woman-falls-overboard-on-cruise-ship-treads-water-until-rescue

This woman fell overboard and hit a lifeboat on the way down and survived, badly injured and was rescued.

Interesting perspective... She says she shouldn't have survived and is suing Carnival.

Oh wait, hold up.. This link has an infrared photo of her in the process of going overboard! http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/the-moment-sarah-kirby-plunged-from-a-carnival-cruise-ship/story-fnizu68q-1226806932077

"Kirby swam till she was exhausted, floated and coughed up water from waves that "would crash into her face, believing that her death was imminent" from drowning or sharks.

She said she had to wait 16 hours before she received medical treatment.

Kirby stayed in hospital for three weeks suffering severe injuries including broken bones, lung contusions, hypothermia, heart arrhythmia and blood clots in her eyes, arms, and legs."

The scale of person to boat-- person is so small.




I just had a heart wrenching and sickening thought: Maybe the noise her dad heard that he ascribed to as her closing the cabin door was the noise of her hitting a lifeboat on the way down from falling overboard?

 

[Hiandmighty]

WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT NICE GIRL IN CABIN NUMBER 8564?

The Bradleys were in cabin 8564 on Rhapsody of the Seas. That is Starboard, mostly toward aft but still kind of midship.



There are likely lifeboats below this cabin.

(Her cabin is aqua, on the right,and 3 below the second handicapped grey cabin sorta by the midship elevators)

 

[Hiandmighty]

Here is the starboard side of Rhapsody of the Seas. Amy's cabin was the 15th one from the back. Deck 8 is above the life rafts.

View attachment 60547

Her cabin did indeed have a life boat below it: (the second life boat from the left)

View attachment 60550

(The second photo is blurry because I enlarged it from the first photo).


If she fell and hit a life raft on the way down and was injured as much or more than Sarah Kirby, how does the fact that Amy is a "trained lifeguard" dismiss a drowning? It doesn't at all. Trained lifeguard status doesn't matter here in the end.

For scale, each life boat can fit about 200 people for smaller ships and up to 360 people for the larger ships IIRC. So they look small compared to the ship but they aren't small.

 

[Little Jedi]

To say that witnesses would tell a parent anything just because they are intimidated by the situation, IMO is ludicrous. If you are aware of this having happened elsewhere, I'd appreciate reading about it.

Personally I'd feel slightly intimidated under these circumstances.

*Friday March 26th,1998 - 3AM*

" I witnessed 2 young girls, probably around 19 or 20 years old, walk toward the stern of the boat on the starboard side. Minutes later a young man ran from where the women had walked toward the bow of the boat. Soon, a woman with blonde hair and another gentleman and at least one man from Royal Caribean began to congregate on what may have been the 6th deck across from where I was standing.

They began to question the 2 young girls.
It was around this time time that it became obvious to me that the people I was watching was the family of the missing girl.
I was curious as to why this meeting was taking place in the middle of the night and being wide awake I decided to eavesdrop to find out what I could. Apparently the 2 girls had seen Amy Bradley, the missing girl, during the early morning hours of the day she vanished. They were trying to find out anything and everything that the two girls had seen.
What I witnessed was the older woman was immensly distraught. I over heard her saying, “please, think very carfully did you see anything else? Are you sure you didn’t hear anything else, are you sure you didn’t see anything else.” The poor women was so frantic I just remember everyone trying to get her to calm down and be cool.

Later I found out her name was Iva Bradley."


I think whatever time these eye-witnesses stated would be very questionable.

* I also wouldn't call 5:30-6am "early morning hours"

http://chrisfenwick.com/home/2010/3/1/amy-bradley-is-missing.html?currentPage=2