Identified! VA - Annandale, WhtFem 245UFVA, ~60, 'NO CODE, DNR, No Penicillin', Dec'96

[carbuff]

Okay, done and done. I'll post any responses. In the mean time I'm trying to find an email address for the FFX Co. Cold Case Dept. b/c I'm too impatient to wait for a phone call that may or may not come from Lt. Holland of FFX Co.

I'd give him a reasonable amount of time -- say a week -- before following up. Expecting answers is good, but nagging is generally counterproductive in the long run.

 

[CherBearSTL]

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/767dfia.html

Barbara Elms

Matches in height and weight... she had a walkman at the time of disappearance...had a history of disappearing and battled with alcohol and prescription drugs.



Comparison with our JD

Wow! This is an excellent possibility.

Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using Tapatalk 2

 

[astridxx]

Wow! This is an excellent possibility.

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The only thing that concerns me is Barbara didn't wear glasses and JD did. (I guess eye sight can change with time, though). Granted, it does say in the case report for Barbara that she had been attacked with a chemical before she disappeared -- so maybe that damaged her eyes to the point of her needing glasses.

Also, I saw no mention of a scar anywhere on Barbara's body. Heck, Barbara isn't even in the NAMUS database!


Rule Barb out. http://www.iowaonline.state.ia.us/mpic/Controller.aspx?cmd=personDetailCommand&id=258

She's no longer on the MP list.




Wait I'm confused -- I clicked on the Iowa Clearinghouse link at the bottom of her DN page and it said "this person is no longer on the missing persons list"... but then there's this:

http://www.iowaonline.state.ia.us/mpic/Controller.aspx?cmd=personDetailCommand&id=16916

 

[astridxx]

"The pack was from the 90’s… spanned a number of years, so I can’t tell you anymore than that. Without specific days/dates, there’s no way of knowing when it was purchased – or received as a gift? REI products are only sold by REI…
Sorry I can’t be of more help!"

From the store manager...

 

[astridxx]

Around when can I expect to hear from any one of the 3 or 4 agencies I've emailed about possible matches?

 

[Snufamonbobball]

Around when can I expect to hear from any one of the 3 or 4 agencies I've emailed about possible matches?

I hate to be of no real help here, but some agencies respond very quickly and with much enthusiasm, and with others you might not ever hear from at all-even with follow up.

Many agencies are just plain overwhelmed with more current cases, and just don't have the man power to do much with cold cases, so it can be very frustrating but you just have to be patient and consistent.

I have a dollar store yearly planner that I use. I write down whom I talked with, the time and then I write down a reminder for about 8 weeks later that I need to follow up, if I haven't heard anything. I also will write down (or print out) the contact information, the PM information and the corresponding Namus or Doenetwork files. I also email the investigators with all the corresponding information, so they can look into it without actually having to talk directly with me (some don't like to talk with the general public), but they still have all the information and can look into it at their discretion.

I wish it all happened super fast, but sometimes it's just plain slow. So be patient. One tip I received was to always try and include the NCIC#'s and information on what methods can be used for identification (dna, dentals).

 

[astridxx]

Whoaaaaa look at that! A is Jane Doe, B is Judith Geurin. Almost a straight drive!

 

[webrocket]

I had to go back a few pages to find the links for the UID so I am putting them here for easy reference.

https://identifyus.org/cases/6279
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html

as for Barbara Elms, I like the facial similarities and other demographics. however, given Barbara's history of mental illness I do not see her having the ability to plot out her own suicide with such precision. also since Barbara had no income, I'm not sure where she would have gotten the money for the designer clothes the UID was wearing at the time of her suicide

having said all that, as we know in these cases ANYTHING is possible.

 

[ThePhantom]

I was going to suggest that she may have gotten her nice clothing from one of the many thrift stores in the area, which commonly have high end goods donated by well to do souls. However, I went back and re-read her attire and it all seemed well matched and put together. This lady reminds me of someone who worked for many years at a low/mid level government position, or possibly as an executive assistant for someone who retired. Perhaps she had a career, it came to an end, she didn't have family or family who cared about her, and decided her life no longer had a purpose. The 8 inch scar on her abdomen could have been from a hysterectomy. If most of her adult life was spent working, and she was forced to retire and had no other interests or friends, she might have decided there was nothing to live for. Has anyone ever seen her dental chart? I bet her teeth were properly taken care of throughout her life. Sixty can be a hard age for a woman, especially if the person is introverted and keeps to themselves. There are tons of apartment buildings in Annandale and the surrounding area, filled with government workers, military employees coming and going, and many people who are here only temporarily. In other words, it can be a lonely area if one isn't inclined to make connections within the community.

 

[EyesOnSunday]

Please forgive me if this has already been discussed (this is my first time looking at this case) but does anyone else feel that the circumstances of her "suicide" are strange?

1. Specifically asks that no autopsy be done
2. Requested cremation (potentially to prevent the possibility of exhumation down the road)
3. Typewritten notes
4. She TAPED A PLASTIC BAG OVER HER HEAD. It is so incredibly difficult whether you are suicidal or not to resist ripping that bag when you begin suffocating. There was a case recently where a mother took her son in to the woods and ZIP TIED heavy plastic over there heads so they would not be able to tear them off. I know she was drunk, etc. but come on.


I know that all of these things "make sense" if it was actually a suicide but IMO they also make sense if it was a murder.

Either she truly did not want to be identified or someone else tried to prevent anyone from looking deeply enough to discover her identity.

Maybe I am looking too deeply in to this or missing some information but something seems weird.

 

[astridxx]

A lot of good points made in the past few threads that ill respond to tomorrow. Right now I'm on my phone and its too labor intensive to reply to everything LOL

I got a call from Lt Holland or SOMEONE at FFX Co major Crimes unit around 6p but I was in a weird unfamiliar neighborhood and couldn't answer because my navigation was on. Whoever it was didn't leave a message so ill call tomorrow.

 

[astridxx]

I had to go back a few pages to find the links for the UID so I am putting them here for easy reference.

https://identifyus.org/cases/6279
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html

as for Barbara Elms, I like the facial similarities and other demographics. however, given Barbara's history of mental illness I do not see her having the ability to plot out her own suicide with such precision. also since Barbara had no income, I'm not sure where she would have gotten the money for the designer clothes the UID was wearing at the time of her suicide

having said all that, as we know in these cases ANYTHING is possible.

The thing about Barbara though is that we don't know what KIND of mental illness she had. Unless she had the mental functioning level of a 3 year old I think she'd be able to plan her suicide the way JD did. But, I do see your point. The $$ though, could have come from anything -- drugs, prostitution, under the table work. I don't see our JD as doing anything like that but, it is a possibility.

 

[astridxx]

I was going to suggest that she may have gotten her nice clothing from one of the many thrift stores in the area, which commonly have high end goods donated by well to do souls. However, I went back and re-read her attire and it all seemed well matched and put together. This lady reminds me of someone who worked for many years at a low/mid level government position, or possibly as an executive assistant for someone who retired. Perhaps she had a career, it came to an end, she didn't have family or family who cared about her, and decided her life no longer had a purpose. The 8 inch scar on her abdomen could have been from a hysterectomy. If most of her adult life was spent working, and she was forced to retire and had no other interests or friends, she might have decided there was nothing to live for. Has anyone ever seen her dental chart? I bet her teeth were properly taken care of throughout her life. Sixty can be a hard age for a woman, especially if the person is introverted and keeps to themselves. There are tons of apartment buildings in Annandale and the surrounding area, filled with government workers, military employees coming and going, and many people who are here only temporarily. In other words, it can be a lonely area if one isn't inclined to make connections within the community.

Yeah there are several thrift stores in the DC area, even higher end consignment stores. I have not seen her dental chart but I'll ask about that and eye color today when the Lieutenant calls back (I left a voicemail last night).

And I agree that the DC metro area is VERY transient so no one would really think twice about someone who went missing. If she WAS an executive assistant or had a decent job I'd say she came here from another state. I just don't think an employer here wouldn't have learned of her suicide by now -- you know, with all the water-cooler talk that goes on.

 

[astridxx]

Please forgive me if this has already been discussed (this is my first time looking at this case) but does anyone else feel that the circumstances of her "suicide" are strange?

1. Specifically asks that no autopsy be done
2. Requested cremation (potentially to prevent the possibility of exhumation down the road)
3. Typewritten notes
4. She TAPED A PLASTIC BAG OVER HER HEAD. It is so incredibly difficult whether you are suicidal or not to resist ripping that bag when you begin suffocating. There was a case recently where a mother took her son in to the woods and ZIP TIED heavy plastic over there heads so they would not be able to tear them off. I know she was drunk, etc. but come on.


I know that all of these things "make sense" if it was actually a suicide but IMO they also make sense if it was a murder.

Either she truly did not want to be identified or someone else tried to prevent anyone from looking deeply enough to discover her identity.

Maybe I am looking too deeply in to this or missing some information but something seems weird.

First let me start by saying I AM SORRY MY REPLIES HAVEN'T BEEN MERGED TOGETHER. I have no idea how to do that. I hope it's not super annoying.

Now, interesting theory. If she DID follow the Final Exit steps then I'm sure she had no problem taping that bag -- you know if she TRULY wanted to die. She was so heavily under the influence of alcohol and valium that she had the courage to do it, I'm sure. I think the book describes like, starting to fall asleep from the effects of the tranq and the alcohol -- then tie off the bag (jeez just thinking about that is making me dizzy). She could have had a friend help her, but I think it's unlikely.





As far as the evidence presented is concerned, I'm going to ask about:

1.) eye color [I have never seen that mentioned ANYWHERE]
2.) dental records [good condition? Fake teeth? Fillings?]
3.) type of bag over head [?? like a thank you/retail bag? An oven bag?]


Anything else anyone want to know??

 

[astridxx]

Rocky from the Doe Network said no one has reviewed the Geurin/PVMGJD match before so they'll look at it and if it's a positive match they'll contact me.

And he also said Barbara Elms has already been submitted.

 

[carbuff]

Re: the clothes -- if she was down to the end of her money and her hope, it's also possible that she bought them on credit card or with a fraudulent check (the woman from NY had a history of check-kiting), knowing she'd never get caught.

 

[ThePhantom]

I have a question - since she left a note saying "no autopsy" -- is that enough for a coroner not to perform one, even though it was an unattended death? Did they put her DNA into any of the missing person's databases? Thanks

 

[astridxx]

I have a question - since she left a note saying "no autopsy" -- is that enough for a coroner not to perform one, even though it was an unattended death? Did they put her DNA into any of the missing person's databases? Thanks

Yes.

Fingerprints: Available
Dentals: Dental chart is available.
DNA: Available​

http://doenetwork.org/cases/245ufva.html

I don't think they ever performed one though, I think they respected that wish. All I know is FFX Co paid for her cremation and she sits on a shelf in their main room, watching over them (ie; not in a storage locker somewhere with evidence)



I'll ask exactly how worn her clothes were, too. Probably won't make a difference, but, doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[Nixster13]

I cant specify what religions don't do the DNRs ht I have read that Christians are often against it. Not speaking for everyone. Just what I read on Google. I DO know that Jehovah's Witnesses are totally against blood transfusions. I was asked if I was a Jehovah's Witness last year when I went in for surgery. I was confused as to why and the surgeon explained that if I happened to hemmorage (sp) he needed to know if my religious beliefs permitted blood trandfusions.

 

[ThePhantom]

Hmm...so no family members have consulted with law enforcement about giving a DNA sample, meaning either they aren't aware such a thing is possible, or, Jane Doe has no family members, or, she does have family members and they don't care about her whereabouts, or, her family members assumed she doesn't want them to know her whereabouts.

I can't imagine not pursuing a missing relative -- unless -- Jane Doe was totally estranged from her family and made it clear she didn't want anything to do with them.

I'm just thinking aloud here -- we have a middle aged woman who had her picture prominently displayed in local newspapers and most likely on TV -- probably once a year for several years. Now it's been almost sixteen years and no one seems to be knocking on LE's door asking them to investigate their missing persons files. Would police automatically put a family's DNA into a system if they so requested? Could their be a "hiccup" in the process? What could prevent family members from doing this? If Jane Doe had friends looking for her, what could prevent them from looking up Missing Persons websites?

Do you think anyone has been looking for her?