VA - Bethany Stephens, 21, mauled to death by her 2 dogs, Dec 2017

[Zelda1010]

[/B]

BBM- I understand what you are saying, I couldn't not feed an animal that was on my property. However, as you pointed out, we don't know the details of the situation with her Father. So I feel it's unfair to judge him, I mean he discovered his daughter's body in an unimaginable, horrific, tragic situation. I can't imagine how he is dealing with Bethany's death right now. Poor man, my thoughts are with him.

Thanks for your response and the reminder he found his daughter in that condition. I am trying to understand instead of judge, even if my thoughts weren't worded well. I came to the thread late and try to roll & scroll when the breed debate starts, but then I may miss plenty of important ideas or pertinent info.

I think the sheriff is perhaps not an animal lover; and almost certainly not a pit lover. It seems to have colored the information and how it is presented.

I got the impression dad saw her leave with the dogs and was confused why he didn't seem aware she didn't return with them the same day. But maybe he left for work. I'm shocked that someone could leave animals unattended because I'm an animal lover. Some people in this world are not, but still couldn't let an animal go hungry in their presence. Some people fear dogs and some people fear this breed. It would not be reasonable or responsible to ask a person who is afraid to care for the animal (or even go near the kennel, I suppose).

I am still kind of shocked by the sheriff telling us how he did that Dad was housing the dogs but completely uninvolved with Bethany's comings/goings or the dogs' care.

Actually, I wish he would have said THAT instead! That is not shocking. I still might've questioned if anyone knew how far away the kennels are from his home that he was not suspicious when the dogs weren't returned. Even if he didn't usually physically see Bethany, I'd expect him to be at least aware if the dogs were there. Unless the kennels were out of sight and ear shot.

Shocking, appalling, heartbreaking.

 

[Trident]

I see that the problems with the data quoted continually from that website are being ignored. I also see that the fact that I assess each individual dog and euthanize for aggression no matter what the breed being ignored. I use a chart I developed to help me get past the love I have for these dogs and make objective decisions based on the chart, past experiences, what I've seen happen in other similar situations, and in conjunction with advice from other rescuers, shelter operators, dog trainers, and at least one vet.

I see that the experts quoted in many of these articles are also being ignored in favor of some highly emotional reactions based on preconceived notions and extremely shaky "research and stats."

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Before I can take anyone seriously, in any field, I need to see some verification and/or credentials, especially on the internet - otherwise one opinion is as good as another. In my opinion, of course.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Before I can take anyone seriously, in any field, I need to see some verification and/or credentials, especially on the internet - otherwise one opinion is as good as another. In my opinion, of course.

I would be happy to go through the verification process, which could be done instantly because I have 501(c)3 and Articles of Incorporation scanned for quick access for routine grant applications. But I'll say it seems a bit over the top to me to be posting with a V for verified from here on out simply because I operate an animal rescue when I have encountered dozens of animal rescuers in the WS threads. I feel like the mods might laugh at me for requesting to be verified for such a thing. I think of verification more for things like LE, attorneys, and case insiders.

ETA - Have submitted for verification.

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[Jade]

A lot has been made of pit bulls originally being bred to fight or take down large prey such as bulls. I'm going to list some of the other breeds that were originally bred for the same reasons, just as a point of reference.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bull Terrier (dog fighting)

>>>>>>>>

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The originator of the Bull Terrier was breeding for a gentleman’s companion:

At the start of the 19th century the "Bull and Terrier" breeds were developed to satisfy the needs for vermin control and animal-based blood sports. The Bull and Terriers were based on the Old English Bulldog (now extinct) and Old English Terriers with possible other terriers…. the "Bull and Terrier" eventually divided into the ancestors of "Bull Terriers" and "Staffordshire Bull Terriers",
In the mid-19th century James Hinks started breeding Bull and Terriers with "English White Terriers" (now extinct), looking for a cleaner appearance with better legs and nicer head.

Hinks himself had always aimed at a "gentleman's companion" dog rather than a pit-fighter—though Bullies were often entered in the pits, with some success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Terrier

The ‘New Bull Terrier’ first appeared in its present form at a Birmingham show in May 1862. It was shown by James Hinks, a dog dealer, who is generally accepted as the original breeder of the Bull Terrier, whose family has being associated with Bull Terriers until the present day.

http://thebullterrierclub.org/history/

 

[Deleted member 158085]

The originator of the Bull Terrier was breeding for a gentleman’s companion:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_Terrier



http://thebullterrierclub.org/history/

From both The Complete Guide to Dogs by Sheldon L Gersstenfeld and Jacque Lynn Schultz as well as the Royal Canin Dog Encyclopedia by the following veterinary contributors (too many to list, so including screen shot of inner page), they were bred for dog fighting.

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ETA - Also according to the Book of Dogs, edited by Patricia Sylvester.

 

[Jade]

From both The Complete Guide to Dogs by Sheldon L Gersstenfeld and Jacque Lynn Schultz as well as the Royal Canin Dog Encyclopedia by the following veterinary contributors (too many to list, so including screen shot of inner page), they were bred for dog fighting.

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ETA - Also according to the Book of Dogs, edited by Patricia Sylvester.

That information is neither complete nor comprehensive as evidenced by my links.

I own a Bull Terrier and I can read as well.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

That information is neither complete nor comprehensive as evidenced by my links.

I own a Bull Terrier and I can read as well.

I'm sure it's not comprehensive, as these are clearly overviews of breeds. However, I still believe it is correct.

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[Knox]

Where has anyone said they were judging her decision and would not have helped her with the dogs? As a rescue, I pointed out that she did what she thought she had to because this breed is so difficult to place (a lot of people pose as the perfect home while intending to fight them, so it takes longer to find a proper home for them).

I also stated that as a rescue I have worked with trainers to keep the dog in their current home, and other rescues do the same. Rescues are aware that changes happen in life and they do put the animals first. I spend a heck of a lot of time on the phone counseling people every week to get to the heart of the problem and hook them up with professionals who can help them if they are wanting to just fix the problem and not relinquish the cat or dog.

But I also take the animal off their hands immediately if I am able to if it is clear that the dog is suffering and they've had it. Rescues take the dogs and cats that humans have often screwed up and spend an incredible amount of time rehabbing those animals. I'm not sure why rescues are being dinged here. I see nothing that shows she contacted a rescue and got turned down or got criticized by them.

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First, thank you for trying to solve the humans problem with the dog, in order to keep them in place.

Second, I agree that well meaning people get a dog with good intentions. But either the dog is not a good fit for the home and family, or the newness wears off and the "cute puppy" is not so fun anymore.

That actually happened with my son this past summer. They bought an expensive Border Collie, thinking it would be great company for the kids. The kicker, my DIL (who was all for it initially & blasted pics on Facebook for a month) doesn't even like dogs. Collies love to run and JUMP. They did not have adequate fencing, and live on acreage with lots of weeds. Keeping his coat free of weeds and tangles was a twice a day job, then tracking him down because he jumped the fence and left the property. Pretty soon he wasn't even allowed in the house anymore (he was causing her allergies to flare up). The end result was my son gave him back to the breeder within 8 months, who was pizzed that she had a lot of work to do in order to make him suitable for adoption. He was a great dog, just did not get the time, training and attention he needed.

My daughter on the other hand, has a Australian Shepherd who is 9. She raised her from a pup, and that dog is remote control I swear. If she hears disapproval in your voice, she makes this funny little face and sits down in front of you waiting for loves. The only difference in the two dogs was the commitment level.

 

[jamicat]

That is simply untrue.


Many have been deliberately bred as guards’ expectant to attack humans.

Prolific unscrupulous backyard breeders looking for these traits with some puppies ending up in shelters is why some of us are very cautious.

A PB in attack mode does not differentiate prey.

The proceeding statement is corroborated with links and quotes in posts on this thread.

Nope. I’m in Pitbull country. Sadly. I’ve pulled many a Pitbull in attack mode way from other dogs. We have a problem in that there is no leash law here and too many people let their dogs run loose and they get away. By far the most common dog here are the pit mixes both in homes and the shelters. And strays. Also, there are dog fighting rings here The vets, LE in the area along with many of us concerned about the situation have done extensive research on the situation, and looked at the stats on pits

I am not a Pitbull advocate. I am an animal advocates, and a community safety advocate. The pits do not tend to attack adults. People aggression is not one of their traits. They were bred to be fighting dogs but submissive and good with people. Most pit mixes are people friendly but have issues with other animals. I am tinier and and much older than Bethany but have not hesitated to grab a pit after prey. I would not be so quick to break up a dog fight however. Pits actually make poor guard dogs except by presumed reputation.

The preponderance of Pit mixes among people not carefully caring for their dogs is what leads to more human bites reported for these dogs . And because the bites are too serious to ignore whereas a small dog bite you might let go. You don’t see big men make police reports that they were bitten by a Bichon Frise or chihuahua. I was able to access records of attacks, bites along with estimated dogs in our area. The pit mix info is difficult to get accurately because fewer of them are licensed and registered whereas most pure bred dogs are. The more upscale areas tended to have more registered dogs. Walking down certain streets in my narea, where few if any dogs are registered, I could see many dogs. Mostly mixes and mostly pit mixes. Official shelter records back this up. We have gotten the local shelters to insist on the dogs being licensed, registered as well as neutered and inoculated upon adoption but a year after that, there is no control and pit registration goes to nearly nothing after that.

Where Pitbull mixes have huge numbers in terms of problems is in attacking other dogs and small animals. I feel that the size and quick movements of small children can also trigger that prey instinct. No dogs should be around young kids unless under adult control IMO but most people take that chance. Dogs who show very low energy, docile B.B. dispositions, , low prey drive and good reputations, we tend to be lax about.

 

[Zelda1010]

Post mortem not yet done. Investigation still open.
Preliminary examination does indicate the dogs attacked her, and personally, I believe it’s the most likely thing that happened.

However LE has made several statements that are not true in this case already.

Bethany’s Body is in such ripped up and devasted shape thst it is difficult without close examination to rule out anything. The dogs were eating her, but that does not necessarily mean they killed her. That LE released that grisly info to dispel other cause of death theories was a red herring or stupidity. The dogs were eating dead meat because they were hungry. She had been dead about a day by then according to the ME in cursorary exam.

Pit bulls are not bred to attack humans. Fighting dogs that attack handlers or any people do not last long. Given that there are far more pit mix dogs around, it makes sense that there are more bite and attack reports that involve them. They also are dogs that can inflict great harm when they bite which gives them s lot more negative press. Also the people did neighborhoods that own pits tend not to give them optimal care. I know where the high number of pits are on my area. You can walk down the streets and you will see any number of them tied outside. Not the case in the areas where Pitbulls are rare in households. A dachshund or chihuahua that bites, abc these breeds do tend to bite s lot, simply do not do the damage that the jaws of an attacking Pit would do.

I agree that pit mix dogs have dangers that owners need to address more vigilantly then many other breeds and mixes , but i do not believe Bethany’s death was because she had that breed over some other large powerful dogs that were left neglected including unfed, cold, isolated outside after being inside pampered pets all their lives.

The case really didn't catch my eye until I read about the press conference and heard about the nod to social media speculation. I don't see how this description of happening upon a grisly scene dispels the speculation he was supposedly seeking to dispel. I, suddenly, had a heck of a lot of questions, so I scurried over here to see if I could find out more, particularly this person who could be described as her enemy. Only to find the breed specific nonsense was dominant here, sadly.

I do see how letting us know that the beloved pets had been recently neglected and it appears to have had deadly consequences, is an important message to the public.

Something about the sheriff's sharing of the gruesome details made me think something hinky was going on, instead of reassuring me otherwise. And he did say they continue to look into all leads, maybe there will be more to this in the end. Maybe not. I would hate for anything to be overlooked because of a blind spot due to the breed of dogs found feeding on a mutilated body a day after their owner (the owner of the body) died.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

ugh, woke up to this this morning (local story about volunteer killed by dog boarded on behalf of a rescue): http://www.azfamily.com/story/37112966/pd-woman-dies-after-being-mauled-by-dog-at-phoenix-kennel

Too busy to start a thread and not sure it needs one. =(

ETA: the dog was an Akita.

 

[jamicat]

A reason why I think this killing particularly belongs on this forum is that I think LE has jumped too quickly to the easy and simple solution. I admit it is the most likely scenario, but am disturbed that more care was not taken to investigate this more thoroughly and statements by LE not more carefully vetted

I frequently take my dogs to private properties out in the country and let them run freely. The instant they are released, they run with the wind at full speed away from me and to enjoy their freedom. I am vulnerable at that point if anyone should approach me, as the dogs are hundreds of yards away and focused in reveling in their freedom. As Bethany might have been.

So, yes, the first suspects are those dogs since we all know they were definitely with her there. And she has dog bites and scratches on her consistent to an attack, clothes torn from her, no sign of rape, and the dogs were eating her.

But that still is not definitive proof that the dogs were what took her down. A careful autopsy and examination by someone experienced in the forensics of the case is in order before this case is closed. I am assuming she doesn’t have s bullet in her chest or head as cause of death which would have made it s sure thing that the dogs did not kill her

That the police officers made some public incorrect statements in this case bothers me greatly. There was no need to announce the grisly fact that the dogs were eating her, because that means nothing in terms of whether they killed her. She was dead meat to them, and they may not have been adequately fed, given the length of time they were out there before found and how they were abused and neglected before the outing. So, yes, that they fed off the body, horrifyingly as it sounds, is whAt hungry animals would likely do, whether they made the kill or not.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

ugh, woke up to this this morning (local story about volunteer killed by dog boarded on behalf of a rescue): http://www.azfamily.com/story/37112966/pd-woman-dies-after-being-mauled-by-dog-at-phoenix-kennel

Too busy to start a thread and not sure it needs one. =(

ETA: the dog was an Akita.

Had a close call with an Akita myself. He had been on the run for some time and became human aggressive and hellishly cat aggressive during that time. His personality never returned to normal and his family, who had been despondent when he went missing, were never able to trust him again. But they did find a way for him to safely live out his natural life span anyway. It still made me nervous, but I had no say in the decision.

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[Deleted member 158085]

A reason why I think this killing particularly belongs on this forum is that I think LE has jumped too quickly to the easy and simple solution. I admit it is the most likely scenario, but am disturbed that more care was not taken to investigate this more thoroughly and statements by LE not more carefully vetted

I frequently take my dogs to private properties out in the country and let them run freely. The instant they are released, they run with the wind at full speed away from me and to enjoy their freedom. I am vulnerable at that point if anyone should approach me, as the dogs are hundreds of yards away and focused in reveling in their freedom. As Bethany might have been.

So, yes, the first suspects are those dogs since we all know they were definitely with her there. And she has dog bites and scratches on her consistent to an attack, clothes torn from her, no sign of rape, and the dogs were eating her.

But that still is not definitive proof that the dogs were what took her down. A careful autopsy and examination by someone experienced in the forensics of the case is in order before this case is closed. I am assuming she doesn’t have s bullet in her chest or head as cause of death which would have made it s sure thing that the dogs did not kill her

That the police officers made some public incorrect statements in this case bothers me greatly. There was no need to announce the grisly fact that the dogs were eating her, because that means nothing in terms of whether they killed her. She was dead meat to them, and they may not have been adequately fed, given the length of time they were out there before found and how they were abused and neglected before the outing. So, yes, that they fed off the body, horrifyingly as it sounds, is whAt hungry animals would likely do, whether they made the kill or not.

I feel like if two labs had been found eating her, this investigation would have been approached differently.

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[jamicat]

From both The Complete Guide to Dogs by Sheldon L Gersstenfeld and Jacque Lynn Schultz as well as the Royal Canin Dog Encynclopedia by the following veterinary contributors (too many to list, so including screen shot of inner page), they were bred for dog fighting.

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ETA - Also according to the Book of Dogs, edited by Patricia Sylvester.

Please bear in mind too, that very few Pitbulls in shelters and in areas like mine where they are the most common dog, are pure Pitbulls as defined as the 4 breeds making up that category of dog. Most are mutts with some mix of those breeds in them

As an example, the Bull Terrier, is a recognized breed that is expensive to get. I see very very few , maybe even none of these pure bred dogs but I sure do see many pit mixes. How many Pure bred pedigreed bull terriers are there reported in attacks on humans? Not many. It’s the Pitbull mix category that has those numbers, and that includes a lot of mutts with a streak of some sort of pit bull in them.

 

[Trident]

I feel like if two labs had been found eating her, this investigation would have been approached differently.

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I feel any dog found eating a human being, unless they had been cooped up with him/her for 3/4 days, should be shot on sight.

 

[jamicat]

Thanks for your response and the reminder he found his daughter in that condition. I am trying to understand instead of judge, even if my thoughts weren't worded well. I came to the thread late and try to roll & scroll when the breed debate starts, but then I may miss plenty of important ideas or pertinent info.

I think the sheriff is perhaps not an animal lover; and almost certainly not a pit lover. It seems to have colored the information and how it is presented.

I got the impression dad saw her leave with the dogs and was confused why he didn't seem aware she didn't return with them the same day. But maybe he left for work. I'm shocked that someone could leave animals unattended because I'm an animal lover. Some people in this world are not, but still couldn't let an animal go hungry in their presence. Some people fear dogs and some people fear this breed. It would not be reasonable or responsible to ask a person who is afraid to care for the animal (or even go near the kennel, I suppose).

I am still kind of shocked by the sheriff telling us how he did that Dad was housing the dogs but completely uninvolved with Bethany's comings/goings or the dogs' care.

Actually, I wish he would have said THAT instead! That is not shocking. I still might've questioned if anyone knew how far away the kennels are from his home that he was not suspicious when the dogs weren't returned. Even if he didn't usually physically see Bethany, I'd expect him to be at least aware if the dogs were there. Unless the kennels were out of sight and ear shot.

Shocking, appalling, heartbreaking.

I am heartsick that a human being was killed, regardless of how. That her own dogs likely killed her makes it even more horrifying. I have deep sympathies towards her families and those who cared for her, as I know they are in deep shock, pain and grief. This is a terrible thing that happened

However, both Bethany and her father are guilty of abusing and neglecting those dogs. Bethany worked with animals and had to know what she was doing to them was cruel punishment. They were beloved house dogs suddenly caged outside. Visited by her “about 5 times a week “. Housed at someone’s place who has specifically said “not my responsibility “ so adamantly that It’s doubtful he cared for them at all. She should have turned them into a shelter if she could not place them with anyone. What she did was wrong

As for the father, to allow living creatures to stay on ones property with out proper care and specifically the way those two dogs are housed was wrong and cruel.

That many dogs live this way is no excuse. That these dogs were abruptly transitioned into this setting was abuse to them.

LE’s statement that the dogs were “a bit neglected “ a huge understatement. They were grossly neglected and abused.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Please bear in mind too, that very few Pitbulls in shelters and in areas like mine where they are the most common dog, are pure Pitbulls as defined as the 4 breeds making up that category of dog. Most are mutts with some mix of those breeds in them

As an example, the Bull Terrier, is a recognized breed that is expensive to get. I see very very few , maybe even none of these pure bred dogs but I sure do see many pit mixes. How many Pure bred pedigreed bull terriers are there reported in attacks on humans? Not many. It’s the Pitbull mix category that has those numbers, and that includes a lot of mutts with a streak of some sort of pit bull in them.

I very much agree. In fact, many that are labeled as pit mixes probably aren't. It is extremely difficult at times to tell if it's boxer or pit in the mix. Shelters are notorious (at least in the South) for slapping incomprehensible labels onto dogs. The most common mistakes I see in breed identification are

Block headed dogs labeled as pits

Any dog with a black spot on its tongue labeled as chow

Any black and tan dog labeled as shepherd or rottie, depending on the shelter employees general view of things



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[bronk4]

A reason why I think this killing particularly belongs on this forum is that I think LE has jumped too quickly to the easy and simple solution. I admit it is the most likely scenario, but am disturbed that more care was not taken to investigate this more thoroughly and statements by LE not more carefully vetted

I frequently take my dogs to private properties out in the country and let them run freely. The instant they are released, they run with the wind at full speed away from me and to enjoy their freedom. I am vulnerable at that point if anyone should approach me, as the dogs are hundreds of yards away and focused in reveling in their freedom. As Bethany might have been.

So, yes, the first suspects are those dogs since we all know they were definitely with her there. And she has dog bites and scratches on her consistent to an attack, clothes torn from her, no sign of rape, and the dogs were eating her.

But that still is not definitive proof that the dogs were what took her down. A careful autopsy and examination by someone experienced in the forensics of the case is in order before this case is closed. I am assuming she doesn’t have s bullet in her chest or head as cause of death which would have made it s sure thing that the dogs did not kill her

That the police officers made some public incorrect statements in this case bothers me greatly. There was no need to announce the grisly fact that the dogs were eating her, because that means nothing in terms of whether they killed her. She was dead meat to them, and they may not have been adequately fed, given the length of time they were out there before found and how they were abused and neglected before the outing. So, yes, that they fed off the body, horrifyingly as it sounds, is whAt hungry animals would likely do, whether they made the kill or not.

chances are very low that the dogs would've let someone harm her
..sure, it's possible what you say--but a very, very low possibility

 

[jamicat]

As for the monthly cost for a dog being several hundred. Disagree. I own 5 dogs, a dozen cats, 5 horses, 6 pot belly pigs, 30 chickens, and a finch. If I paid hundreds for ONE dog....there would be lots of animals needing a home ASAP! An animal can be well taken care of without involving hundreds a month. Even with heartworm, flea treatment, and their food, no where near what was estimated. Heck my horses don't even cost hundreds a month!

That’s very nice that you and some others have been able to care so well for animals so inexpensively. Many if not most cannot. And even those who can, are one incident from a high bill. Unless you are going to euthanize or get rid of any pet who incurs unexpected expenses. It happens with children , cars, houses as well as with pets.

I have two dogs and am trying to get enough money to fence in a large yard so that they can run free in the back yard. No small cost.

One dog has been extremely healthy but the other one has had skin issues, injuries, and some health problems that just happened. Had to pay the vet for them. Plus with the bugs here, vaccines are essential on top of the required rabies shot. Also annual licensing, fee for use of dog park, dog leashes and collars best suited, training courses for both, and food. Because of skin Allergies, I can’t go cheap with the food. I also need to pay for their care if I am away.

So, yes, pets can cost a lot. Other dogs I’ve had, did get expensive as they got older and needed medical intervention. It happens.

I am working with an elderly woman whose dog ate something that caused blockage. Expensive surgery and medical care. This dog, a few years old, is her beloved companion but neither she nor her family could afford the medical emergency. Heck, she has trouble meeting her own medical needs. My fence fund took a hit when this happened, and I doubt I’ll get all my money back from this