VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #2

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dangrsmind said:
Juggalos in Oshkosh (b'gosh):

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/article/20091018/OSH0101/910180459
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Wow ... I'm really shocked at the fact that the city seems to think that this group of kids is a hazard ... AND puts them in the same catagory of a gang as the Gangster Disciples or Latin Kings!!! Honestly, I'm surprised ... the police even admit there is basically no trouble (just those pesky skateboarders!). I do have to say, though, I'm concerned that parents will let their 12 and 13 year olds go ... can you say this sounds like the beginnings of Emma?

This is the sort of thing that will case the kids to feel harassed, and then they will rebel to make even more of a statement. Could the situation be better? Sure, but it could also be a he## of a lot worse!
 
heroine,that's what I've been trying to say all along,just because a couple of Mormons commited crimes that has nothing to do with being Mormon....murder is commited by individuals from all diffrent kinds of backgrounds,different religions,listening to different music.
something went terribly wrong with sam and it wasn't horrorcore.
 
claudicici said:
heroine,that's what I've been trying to say all along,just because a couple of Mormons commited crimes that has nothing to do with being Mormon....murder is commited by individuals from all diffrent kinds of backgrounds,different religions,listening to different music.
something went terribly wrong with sam and it wasn't horrorcore.
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Yes, my lady, I do understand what you're trying to say. I feel like I'm on trial now....haha....
I still feel he was influenced, not by the music, but the rituals etc.
But I also agree that he had to be one sick kid either way. Because if he was that influential then he def. should have had his head checked long ago.
 
Heroine said:
The Dead Goat has nothing to do with mormonism. It's plain and simply a bar, one that at this time is not even open...
http://www.deadgoat.com/Dead_Goat/Welcome.html
You don't have to by law be Mormon to live in Utah.
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I wasn't trying to say the bar was associated with the church. We had actually heard that you couldn't get alcohol in Utah without going to a members only club, and had brought our own. Remember this was before you could research places on the Internet easily.

We were wandering around near the main temple when we came upon the garden. I didn't know anything about Mormon beliefs and just sort of wandered in and checked it out. Then we found the bar across the street blasting metal...it was just a typical little dive bar with a pool table or two. But after finding the sphinx and altar in the garden, and I think there is stone circle too, we were a bit freaked about finding a metal bar with the name The Dead Goat. We were prepared to end up on that altar. ;)

The next night one of the desk people at out hotel referred us to one of the member's only places which had "instant membership" for out of town visitors. Not nearly as much fun as the Dead Goat.
 
Heroine said:
Here is where you can find our beliefs....
http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/the-restoration-of-truth
...not to mention, i'm pretty sure if i tried hard enough I could find some damning evidence about every church. name your religion and I'm sure I can dig up some dirt. There will always be non-believers of something who will spend there lives trying to make others look bad.
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Even the "Church of Horrorocore" and "Temple of Juggaloism"...
 
Heroine said:
Yes, my lady, I do understand what you're trying to say. I feel like I'm on trial now....haha....
I still feel he was influenced, not by the music, but the rituals etc.
But I also agree that he had to be one sick kid either way. Because if he was that influential then he def. should have had his head checked long ago.
Click to expand...

Wasn't trying to put Mormonism or you on trial. Apologies if I made you feel that way.
 
claudicici said:
heroine,that's what I've been trying to say all along,just because a couple of Mormons commited crimes that has nothing to do with being Mormon....murder is commited by individuals from all diffrent kinds of backgrounds,different religions,listening to different music.
something went terribly wrong with sam and it wasn't horrorcore.
Click to expand...

In fact if you want to look at what social groups commit most crimes you end up looking at mostly social-economic status, ethnic background, drug use, and mental illness. Pretty much any other effect is going to be dwarfed by these and you need to eliminate these effects in order to discover a new causal factor. For example with juggalos there is often low socio-economic status and drug use to consider as well as the fact that a person is a member of this group. Most murders are committed as the result of an argument or in association with another crime such as a robbery.

And also, FWIW, occult related crime is incredibly rare and most reported cases turn out to be fake or the occult aspect has little to do with the actual reason for the crime. However there are exceptions...
 
wadahoot said:
Wow ... I'm really shocked at the fact that the city seems to think that this group of kids is a hazard ... AND puts them in the same catagory of a gang as the Gangster Disciples or Latin Kings!!! Honestly, I'm surprised ... the police even admit there is basically no trouble (just those pesky skateboarders!). I do have to say, though, I'm concerned that parents will let their 12 and 13 year olds go ... can you say this sounds like the beginnings of Emma?

This is the sort of thing that will case the kids to feel harassed, and then they will rebel to make even more of a statement. Could the situation be better? Sure, but it could also be a he## of a lot worse!
Click to expand...

Back in my day a lot of people used to hang out at this pinball place called the Silver Ball. Parents didn't "let" their kids go there, the kids lied and cut school and went there anyway.
 
dangrsmind said:
Back in my day a lot of people used to hang out at this pinball place called the Silver Ball. Parents didn't "let" their kids go there, the kids lied and cut school and went there anyway.
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Yeah, that happened with us, too, of course, back then. But another thing that often happened and threatened to happen, with more or less effective results, was that your own parents or someone else's parents found out about it, they all told each other, and you were grounded or lost your car privileges or whatever. There's a lot more throwing of hands in the air these days, and saying "Well, they're just going to do it anyway, so I will abdicate my responsibilities as their parent." People expect the schools to raise their children these days. That is so whacked.
 
tapu said:
Yeah, that happened with us, too, of course, back then. But another thing that often happened and threatened to happen, with more or less effective results, was that your own parents or someone else's parents found out about it, they all told each other, and you were grounded or lost your car privileges or whatever. There's a lot more throwing of hands in the air these days, and saying "Well, they're just going to do it anyway, so I will abdicate my responsibilities as their parent." People expect the schools to raise their children these days. That is so whacked.
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Our experiences are quite different then. I'm a parent of two teenagers, and I barely expect the schools to educate them. The school certainly isn't going to do anything that could be construed as "raising" anyone and there are kids in the schools here that are homeless or close to it.

Also, way way back in the day, my ex-wife's parents found out what she was up to (not very different from Emma minus the devil worship and violent content) they decided on "tough love" and put her out on the street. She was 14. They later had her arrested as a runaway (false) and sent her to boarding school. Did not end well.

Bad parenting is not a new invention.
 
dangrsmind said:
Our experiences are quite different then. I'm a parent of two teenagers, and I barely expect the schools to educate them. The school certainly isn't going to do anything that could be construed as "raising" anyone and there are kids in the schools here that are homeless or close to it.

Also, way way back in the day, my ex-wife's parents found out what she was up to (not very different from Emma minus the devil worship and violent content) they decided on "tough love" and put her out on the street. She was 14. They later had her arrested as a runaway (false) and sent her to boarding school. Did not end well.

Bad parenting is not a new invention.
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?? Well, no, I'm not saying that YOU expect the schools to raise your children, or that one SHOULD expect the schools to. I'm railing against that, and the general trend toward parent abdication. And putting your kid out on the street is another way to abdicate--the ultimate way. I'm pretty sure we're coming from the SAME place. Except that, I guess you think that there's not more parental abdication now than there was for previous generations? I tend to disagree. I think it's the norm now to birth a kid and throw them into the fray with nothing taught at home w.r.t. morals (and I don't mean Christian morals--just a human sense of morality) and nothing done with regard to rules of behavior and discipline. I think there was more parental responsibility taken at some time, but ****, even if there wasn't, the point is that that's where the responsibilities and the power and the joys, if you're doing it right and ever gave a **** about it in the first place, lie.
 
tapu said:
?? Well, no, I'm not saying that YOU expect the schools to raise your children, or that one SHOULD expect the schools to. I'm railing against that, and the general trend toward parent abdication. And putting your kid out on the street is another way to abdicate--the ultimate way. I'm pretty sure we're coming from the SAME place. Except that, I guess you think that there's not more parental abdication now than there was for previous generations? I tend to disagree. I think it's the norm now to birth a kid and throw them into the fray with nothing taught at home w.r.t. morals (and I don't mean Christian morals--just a human sense of morality) and nothing done with regard to rules of behavior and discipline. I think there was more parental responsibility taken at some time, but ****, even if there wasn't, the point is that that's where the responsibilities and the power and the joys, if you're doing it right and ever gave a **** about it in the first place, lie.
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The world is different. I don't know how I would go about answering the question of greater or lesser morality to my satisfaction. However focusing on one thing like horrorcore, which I agree is clearly more grotesque and violent than previous musical forms other than perhaps death metal, as an indication of the whole picture misses the mark IMO. Maybe horrorcore is a sign of declining moral values (whatever that means idk really) but what about the decline nationally in violent crime that is happening at the same time? Maybe horrorcore actually reduces crime. What about the declines in racism in sexism that have also gone along with your decline in "morality"? There's just no indication in my mind that our current "less moral" world is worse than the alternatives.
 
dangrsmind said:
Back in my day a lot of people used to hang out at this pinball place called the Silver Ball. Parents didn't "let" their kids go there, the kids lied and cut school and went there anyway.
Click to expand...

Oh, my ... I grew up in a VERY liberal college town in the 60-70s, so I know a LOT of what you speak! (Silver Ball is probably a fairly common name of places back then, but you didn't grow up in C'dale did you?!)

I would think though, that a girls 12 and 13 wouldn't be regularly at an evening 'event' without parental notice, especially since they were dumb enough to let their pictures be taken, along with name and age! :waitasec:

As for parenting, I'm with y'all on that topic. I volunteered at my son's school (up to 20 hours a week) from K-12 and saw it all. He and I set our boundaries, so that I didn't 'cramp his style' but being there, knowing the players, and keeping a pulse on trends and gossip helped a LOT. He's a great kid (21-years old), Eagle Scout, college dorm RA, and has had the honor of being dumped by girls because he was 'too nice!' As I've said before on this forum, parenting is THE hardest job EVER - IF you are truly intensely parenting and not standing by and watching them take in calories and never knowing a thing about your child.

I happen to think Mark and Debra were parenting hard and well, but made the mistakes of being their child's friend and equating love with leniency and spoiling Emma.
 
So has Sam been charged with the three other murders yet?
Any word out there down Farmville way?

I can see why people are frustrated and flabbergasted at Mark for accompanying his daughter to such an event, his being a Christian and all...because they believe so heavily in the evil of Satan - being the prince of the physical world - he should have known better than to open the door. Of course Christians don't have any super power, but they are supposed to be aware of the power of evil and not get tangled up in it without some back up.

I'm rather surprised myself and then I digress because I've seen what a guilt driven divorced parent will do - or a parent desperate to try and slavage the relationship. They bend more than Gumby.

The thing I have the most trouble with is them letting Sam visit (he was 20 years old) and stay at their home knowing that Emma met him online. I wonder, did they check up on him on the internet? Surely they did, but then what? Seems like an odd move to make if you've seen what they guy is all about. Just the fact that he was 20 and Emma was 16 SHOULD have been a deal killer - just sayin.
 
ziggy said:
So has Sam been charged with the three other murders yet?
Any word out there down Farmville way?

I can see why people are frustrated and flabbergasted at Mark for accompanying his daughter to such an event, his being a Christian and all...because they believe so heavily in the evil of Satan - being the prince of the physical world - he should have known better than to open the door. Of course Christians don't have any super power, but they are supposed to be aware of the power of evil and not get tangled up in it without some back up.

I'm rather surprised myself and then I digress because I've seen what a guilt driven divorced parent will do - or a parent desperate to try and slavage the relationship. They bend more than Gumby.

The thing I have the most trouble with is them letting Sam visit (he was 20 years old) and stay at their home knowing that Emma met him online. I wonder, did they check up on him on the internet? Surely they did, but then what? Seems like an odd move to make if you've seen what they guy is all about. Just the fact that he was 20 and Emma was 16 SHOULD have been a deal killer - just sayin.
Click to expand...

No new news out of Farmville......sorry
 
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