VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #2

[gxm]

Welcome AndresEscobar and asamford23! It's great to see new members dropping in.

****

Okay, I've always loved prime numbers and don't have an especially keen interest in the occult so can someone give me the short story on the link. To me, 23 is simply a great number… almost as wonderful as 17.

 

[tapu]

Welcome AndresEscobar and asamford23! It's great to see new members dropping in.

****

Okay, I've always loved prime numbers and don't have an especially keen interest in the occult so can someone give me the short story on the link. To me, 23 is simply a great number… almost as wonderful as 17.

For chrissakes!, GXM, don't bring up 17!! Are you trying to get us all killed??

 

[dangrsmind]

Welcome AndresEscobar and asamford23! It's great to see new members dropping in.

****

Okay, I've always loved prime numbers and don't have an especially keen interest in the occult so can someone give me the short story on the link. To me, 23 is simply a great number… almost as wonderful as 17.

From Crowley's book of lies:

23
ΚΕΦΑΛΗ KΓ (23)
SKIDOO
What man is at ease in his Inn?
Get out.
Wide is the world and cold.
Get out.
Thou hast become an in-itiate.
Get out.
But thou canst not get out by the way thou camest in.
The Way out is THE WAY.
Get out.
For OUT is Love and Wisdom and Power.12
Get OUT.
If thou hast T already, first get UT.13
Then get O.
And so at last get OUT.

COMMENTARY (KG)
Both “23” and “Skidoo” are American words meaning “Get
out.” This chapter describes the Great Work under the figure
of a man ridding himself of all his accidents.
He first leaves the life of comfort; then the world at large;
and, lastly, even the initiates.
In the fourth section is shown that there is no return for one
that has started on this path.
The word OUT is then analysed, and treated as a noun.
Besides the explanation in the note, O is the Yoni; T, the
Lingam; and U, the Hierophant; the 5th card of the Tarot, the
Pentagram. It is thus practically identical with IAO.
The rest of the chapter is clear, from the note.

http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/liber333.pdf

See also:
http://the-number-23.blogspot.com/2007/02/religion-sects-and-occult.html

 

[dangrsmind]

double post deleted

 

[gxm]

For chrissakes!, GXM, don't bring up 17!! Are you trying to get us all killed??

LOL!

The funny thing is that I usually use the nic gxm17. But when I signed up here, I decided to shorten it.

 

[dangrsmind]

LOL!

The funny thing is that I usually use the nic gxm17. But when I signed up here, I decided to shorten it.

17 is associated with the full moon.

In the treatise "De Iside et Osiride," Plutarch says Osiris was killed on the 17th Day of the Moon and hence when the moon was at the full--and from that reason, Egyptions abominate that number.

This is the myth Crowley was invoking when he declared the "Aeon of Horus".

Consider also stories of werewolves hunting under the full moon and the fact that witches often perform rituals on the full moon.

 

[dangrsmind]

Here's what a police officer actually said about one "juggalo" related case.

Amherst Police Chief Peter Lyons said his department is trying to “get a handle on” how much influence gangs may have in town. He said he prefers to focus on a person’s behavior, though, as opposed to whom he or she associates with.

Lyons encouraged residents to report any information that could help the ongoing investigation but urged them to not add to the “rumor mill.”

“It’s also important that we remind ourselves that we still live in a very safe community,” he said. “We should not lose sight that statistically we live in the right place.”


http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091020/NEWS01/910209987/-1/XML15

 

[dangrsmind]

 

[AndresEscobar]

Here's what a police officer actually said about one "juggalo" related case.

Amherst Police Chief Peter Lyons said his department is trying to “get a handle on” how much influence gangs may have in town. He said he prefers to focus on a person’s behavior, though, as opposed to whom he or she associates with.

Lyons encouraged residents to report any information that could help the ongoing investigation but urged them to not add to the “rumor mill.”

“It’s also important that we remind ourselves that we still live in a very safe community,” he said. “We should not lose sight that statistically we live in the right place.”


http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091020/NEWS01/910209987/-1/XML15

(dangrsmind: I know you're also arguing against the juggalo connection stuff)

I realize there is a rush to assume that violent music is creating some sort of rash of murderous zombies, but this juggalo stuff is tenuously related to those murders, it's irrelevant to these murders. After a search of anyone's home, computers, etc., they're bound to find something that, looking back in hindsight, could be attributed to the creation of violent behavior. Sure, it's a nice trick for the media, but it's not legally significant.

Do me a favor: go through your ipod, DVD collection, DVR and book collection and see what has violent themes in it.

 

[Kano]

I dont see why this even debated... Everyone knows you get out exactly what you put in!

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s847460.htm

http://www.musicalenglishlessons.com/bibi/essays/visualviolence+music.htm

http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.publhealth.26.021304.144640

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=1edae5deeb4dc35febed919841a3dd2d

I think we all know i could sit here and link studys and articles that match my point of view all day, it called social mental conditioning.. And a really basic fact of life.. Does it say that if you buy an ICP cd you are going to be a killer? No.. Does it say if you circle your mind with thoughts of brutality and death you will be conditioned to it more so then a person who does not? Yes.. Its really basic facts of life and not worth debate.

 

[Kano]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1920753,00.html

 

[dangrsmind]

I dont see why this even debated... Everyone knows you get out exactly what you put in!

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s847460.htm

http://www.musicalenglishlessons.com/bibi/essays/visualviolence+music.htm

http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.publhealth.26.021304.144640

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=1edae5deeb4dc35febed919841a3dd2d

I think we all know i could sit here and link studys and articles that match my point of view all day, it called social mental conditioning.. And a really basic fact of life.. Does it say that if you buy an ICP cd you are going to be a killer? No.. Does it say if you circle your mind with thoughts of brutality and death you will be conditioned to it more so then a person who does not? Yes.. Its really basic facts of life and not worth debate.

1. This article is the paper I've been referencing repeatedly. The problem is that this research shows an impact of violent lyrics on most people, but we observe no impact of this effect in the real world. Most people don't become violent after listening to violent songs and if they did it would be measurable and noticeable.

2. Not a scientific article. This is link is entirely opinion and without any references to support the statements made there. Not worth further comment.

3. Article is not about music but rather violent television and movies and how they influence young children. TV news is discussed for example. Also this paper doesn't exactly support your argument:

"Obviously, not all observers of violence are affected equally at all times by what they observe. Research has shown that the effects of media violence on children are moderated by situational characteristics of the presentation, including how well it attracts and sustains attention, personal characteristics of the viewer including one’s own aggressive predispositions, and characteristics of the physical and human context in which the children are exposed to violence. Of course, these factors all interact with each other. For example, how realistic a violent scene will seem to a child depends on the form and content of the scene, the child’s experiences and propensities to accept what one sees, and probably other viewers present when the child observes the scene."

(emphasis mine)

Violent cartoons and children's programming (i.e. Power Rangers) are more concerning than horrorcore if you read what this article is saying carefully.

4. This article is in reference to psychopaths. There is no one debating whether some people who suffer from particular mental disorders may be more susceptible to influence from violent lyrics. The point is that most people are not susceptible in this way. Charles Manson was influenced by the Beatle's song "Blackbird" as well as other songs none of which had violent lyrics. Crazy people do crazy things.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I dont see why this even debated... Everyone knows you get out exactly what you put in!

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s847460.htm

http://www.musicalenglishlessons.com/bibi/essays/visualviolence+music.htm

http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.publhealth.26.021304.144640

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=1edae5deeb4dc35febed919841a3dd2d

I think we all know i could sit here and link studys and articles that match my point of view all day, it called social mental conditioning.. And a really basic fact of life.. Does it say that if you buy an ICP cd you are going to be a killer? No.. Does it say if you circle your mind with thoughts of brutality and death you will be conditioned to it more so then a person who does not? Yes.. Its really basic facts of life and not worth debate.

But I think you're missing my point. You can go back after someone committed some crime and very easily find some sort of violent media they enjoyed. It's easy. You on your iPod have a song by an artist that could be construed as violent. You own or have rented a DVD that was violent. You own or have borrowed books that are violent. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy and easy for the media.

Regardless, it's not interesting. We can all sit around and debate whether listening to horrorcore MADE McCrosky prone to violence or McCrosky listened to Horrorcore BECAUSE he WAS violent. We can't ever know for a fact, so who cares? It's probably a combination of both.

But, trashing horrorcore for being too violent and pinning these murders on it isn't very interesting. It's mostly self congratulatory and patting ourselves on the back. Buying into this rush to outrage doesn't solve anything.

BTW, thought I'm not contesting that violent music may have a violent effect on some people, two of those links are abstracts. You can copy and paste links all you want, but when the articles are not accessible it's far from convincing. Some of those other articles are dubious as well (musicalenglishlessons.com? an australian newspaper?).

 

[dangrsmind]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1920753,00.html

Interesting article, but I am confused how it is relevant exactly.

If you are talking about desensitization to violence here, I'd say violent video games and TV were a greater risk here than horrorcore music. Modern video games include realistic dynamic depictions of violent actions against people largely without consequences while films and television offer ultra-realistic special effects depicting blood and gore. In contrast, a horrorcore song is a narrative and any images of the events described are constructed in the mind's eye by the listener. The third link from your other recent post specifically suggests that media with more vivid representations of violence are likely to have stronger effects and I note that the perpetrator in this case did play violent X-box games and watched violent horror movies. All media have an effect certainly, but we know the murderer also consumed at least these other violent media as well as horrorcore music.

 

[Kano]

Not missing the point at all, and not saying it will make everyone go crazy.. I am saying IT IS a fact that it conditions people.. Sorry, but it is.. I dont see why you all even debating it.

 

[Kano]

Interesting article, but I am confused how it is relevant exactly.

If you are talking about desensitization to violence here, I'd say violent video games and TV were a greater risk here than horrorcore music. Modern video games include realistic dynamic depictions of violent actions against people largely without consequences while films and television offer ultra-realistic special effects depicting blood and gore. In contrast, a horrorcore song is a narrative and any images of the events described are constructed in the mind's eye by the listener. The third link from your other recent post specifically suggests that media with more vivid representations of violence are likely to have stronger effects and I note that the perpetrator in this case did play violent X-box games and watched violent horror movies. All media have an effect certainly, but we know the murderer also consumed at least these other violent media as well as horrorcore music.

It just more proof of mental conditioning and what you put in what you get back out. Someone fills there head with trash, thats what they get.. Someone fills there head with bad info, thats what they know.. It really doesnt take a genious to figure it out.

And no thats not saying it makes people go crazy and kill etc, but the conditioning there and yeah, it does effect people.
You could always find a psychologist and argue with them over it. *shrugs* Might be better then arguing it on a web slueth board..

And the point of all the links.. Well, i can find something to support about anything i want to think on the subject.. You can also, so i am saying most of your links not valid.

 

[claudicici]

...we were not discussing whether or not the entertainment industry has an influence on people's mind...we were discussing whether or not a certain small underground record label directly and knowingly caused violence...

 

[claudicici]

...I was wondering if we have anymore info about Sam's parents split....his mom seemed to be very protective and it said she wanted to be close to him that's why she worked at the school,yet she left him to live with his dad after the split....do we know why she left? Could it be because of another man?....that could have been very traumatic for sam and could be a reason he snapped when he found tm's from another guy on emma's phone...

 

[tapu]

Because that's what we do here. I like hearing from people that don't agree with me, it challenges my tiny male brain.

Well, yeah, otherwise we'd all just be on Facebook.

 

[dangrsmind]

It just more proof of mental conditioning and what you put in what you get back out. Someone fills there head with trash, thats what they get.. Someone fills there head with bad info, thats what they know.. It really doesnt take a genious to figure it out.

And no thats not saying it makes people go crazy and kill etc, but the conditioning there and yeah, it does effect people.
You could always find a psychologist and argue with them over it. *shrugs* Might be better then arguing it on a web slueth board..

And the point of all the links.. Well, i can find something to support about anything i want to think on the subject.. You can also, so i am saying most of your links not valid.

What are you saying then?

I agree violent music has a measurable effect on people in the sense that it "primes" them for aggression. I posted a link to the article that describes this research multiple times. The point is other effects such as social norms, fear of punishment, etc, are much stronger than the effects of music in almost all cases. Listening to violent music might cause aggressive driving, but it won't make you kill someone.

I don't think you are using the word "conditioning" to mean the same thing I do. Consider Pavlov's dog. He's conditioned to salivate when a bell is rung. Ring the bell, the dog salivates every time. At least until it gets the idea that no food is going to be presented again. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

If horrorcore was conditioning people in this way, I'd expect a much stronger response i.e. every time I hear an ICP song I would reach for my axe. (actually the song that conditioned me was Pink Floyd's Careful with that Axe Eugene but I digress) However this isn't what happens and it is not what we observe in the real world. The effect of music (and there is one) is much more subtle than you are trying to argue here.

I used to work on military training systems and yes you can teach people to kill. And you can train most people to overcome their tendency not to kill when confronted with the opportunity. This has been done and measured in laboratory settings. But the process required is not as simple as sitting around listening to music and smoking weed. Again, based on the actual research in this field, TV and video games are much more worrisome than horrorcore music.

I'm going to pretend that I think your suggestion that I argue with a psychologist isn't a poorly disguised personal insult like your previous "random guy on the web" comment. Here I go...

As a matter of fact my mother is a PhD in psychology and has over 40 years of therapeutic experience as well. I'm going to see her today and I'll ask her about this subject. I will let you know if she argues with me, but yeah don't hold your breath.