VA - Couple & two teens found murdered, Farmville, 15 Sept 2009 #8

[dangrsmind]

You write about "No Angel" and you get it for a week. No PC is the price you pay.

Who's up next?

WB Blou.

 

[dangrsmind]

Found on kitchen table:
Dairy Queen Receipt
Dairy Queen wrapper
Kroger Receipt
Food Receipt (unk) I assume that means unknown
Empty Newport Cig box
Rock Star Energy Drink
Red Bull
Note to Melanie

Interestingly also found in the kitchen...the wood maul

The ball peen hammer was collected from the front bedroom where the womens bodies were.

Also note, the only thing mentioned from the back yard was:
keys w/ doll ring - back yard at bench

Just want to point out that Melanie was known to smoke Newports. Not sure about anyone else involved.

 

[dangrsmind]

This is totally speculation, but since you mention the key I keep trying to find a reason for it to be out there. (even if it's not related) I'm pretty sure it was Emma's keys since it had a doll ring. Which then leads me to believe that it's probably house keys considering Emma didn't have a car. This kinda makes me think could he have possibly been kicked out already by either Deborah or Emma and he had a key to get back in? I know far fetched, but that could explain why he waited until they were sleep to kill them.
Maybe he got kicked out for one reason or another and he somehow stole Emma's keys or maybe Emma even gave them to him and while everyone was asleep he made his way back in and well you know the rest kinda....
Hey, it may sound a bit off, but not impossible and it gives us something else to think about eh?
It at least leads me to believe someone at some point was locked out, because regardless of why it was there I usually don't leave my house keys outside so anyone can unlock my door and come right in.
What I'm trying to say is regardless there was a plan set for those keys and I don't think it was for driving purposes or an accident that they were just left on the bench. Using my imagination can bring me to many conclusions; like, I keep wondering is it possible that Sam was intending to stay in VA and if he hid the keys he would have a possible reentry to a bath and food? Or did Sam overhear the 3 talking about him and how he had to leave? At any rate, with what Sam ended up doing you would think his world just unfolded somehow.

Your posting reminds me of something I had been wondering about a few weeks back. It seems that one of the mysteries of problems with the "crime of passion" theory is the killing of Dr. Kelly and Mr. Niederbrock. It occurs to me that we don't actually know if Dr. Kelly actually let Sam stay at the house on their return to Virginia. If Emma and Melanie were not looking forward to riding back with Sam from STFW, imagine how they felt knowing he going to be staying at Emma's house for another week.

WARNING TOTAL SPECULATION AHEAD

One of the things that has been bugging me about the basic scenario as we have discussed it is that the weapons are tools that were probably stored in a shed outside the house. We don't know this for sure of course, but if true he had to exit the house to locate and retrieve the weapons and then quietly re-enter the house.

Here's an alternative: perhaps the girls lobbied mom to kick him out and maybe she did it. Perhaps this was discussed on the way back in the car with dad present to give it a little extra force for Sam. This theory would explain the murders of Dr. Kelly and Emma's dad IMO.

Now he's stuck in Farmville with nowhere to stay and not enough money to get a hotel room or get home. He can't call his parents to get more money. Perhaps he lurks around the yard and house at night entering the shed and finding the weapons there. Possibly he also had Emma's keys somehow which explains why they were found outside the house...

Anyway, as I said, all of this is pure speculation. But if true, it does help to explain the violent murders of the parents in addition to the girls.

 

[DoctorZ]

Your posting reminds me of something I had been wondering about a few weeks back. It seems that one of the mysteries of problems with the "crime of passion" theory is the killing of Dr. Kelly and Mr. Niederbrock. It occurs to me that we don't actually know if Dr. Kelly actually let Sam stay at the house on their return to Virginia. If Emma and Melanie were not looking forward to riding back with Sam from STFW, imagine how they felt knowing he going to be staying at Emma's house for another week.

WARNING TOTAL SPECULATION AHEAD

One of the things that has been bugging me about the basic scenario as we have discussed it is that the weapons are tools that were probably stored in a shed outside the house. We don't know this for sure of course, but if true he had to exit the house to locate and retrieve the weapons and then quietly re-enter the house.

Here's an alternative: perhaps the girls lobbied mom to kick him out and maybe she did it. Perhaps this was discussed on the way back in the car with dad present to give it a little extra force for Sam. This theory would explain the murders of Dr. Kelly and Emma's dad IMO.

Now he's stuck in Farmville with nowhere to stay and not enough money to get a hotel room or get home. He can't call his parents to get more money. Perhaps he lurks around the yard and house at night entering the shed and finding the weapons there. Possibly he also had Emma's keys somehow which explains why they were found outside the house...

Anyway, as I said, all of this is pure speculation. But if true, it does help to explain the violent murders of the parents in addition to the girls.

The only problem I have with this being discussed on the ride back is the MySpace comment where Emma added Sam says Hi. I think the kicking out would have occured the same day/night of the murders if this scenario did occur.

The keys being outside is interesting. If you hide a spare key you don't put a keychain on it usually.

 

[tapu]

The only problem I have with this being discussed on the ride back is the MySpace comment where Emma added Sam says Hi. I think the kicking out would have occured the same day/night of the murders if this scenario did occur.

The keys being outside is interesting. If you hide a spare key you don't put a keychain on it usually.

Yeah... and you don't put it on a bench.... hmmmm

 

[JBean]

Please make sure the conversation is not about posters, about who is who, about who is reading or about the identity of anyone reading or posting.

 

[dangrsmind]

The only problem I have with this being discussed on the ride back is the MySpace comment where Emma added Sam says Hi. I think the kicking out would have occured the same day/night of the murders if this scenario did occur.

The keys being outside is interesting. If you hide a spare key you don't put a keychain on it usually.

Good point. We don't exactly know when the murders occurred of course, but it seems likely it was the evening of September 15th. So if you are correct, they could have told him to find a hotel room the next day after returning from Michigan. Of course they might have just let him stay in the house too, but he was "broken" up with Emma at STFW and making out with KinkySuicide. It was a pretty small event and venue, so I assume the girls knew about this. Did they tell mom and then perhaps she told Sam to find himself a hotel room? Impossible to say given the available information unfortunately.

 

[AndresEscobar]

This is totally speculation, but since you mention the key I keep trying to find a reason for it to be out there. (even if it's not related) I'm pretty sure it was Emma's keys since it had a doll ring. Which then leads me to believe that it's probably house keys considering Emma didn't have a car. This kinda makes me think could he have possibly been kicked out already by either Deborah or Emma and he had a key to get back in? I know far fetched, but that could explain why he waited until they were sleep to kill them.
Maybe he got kicked out for one reason or another and he somehow stole Emma's keys or maybe Emma even gave them to him and while everyone was asleep he made his way back in and well you know the rest kinda....
Hey, it may sound a bit off, but not impossible and it gives us something else to think about eh?
It at least leads me to believe someone at some point was locked out, because regardless of why it was there I usually don't leave my house keys outside so anyone can unlock my door and come right in.
What I'm trying to say is regardless there was a plan set for those keys and I don't think it was for driving purposes or an accident that they were just left on the bench. Using my imagination can bring me to many conclusions; like, I keep wondering is it possible that Sam was intending to stay in VA and if he hid the keys he would have a possible reentry to a bath and food? Or did Sam overhear the 3 talking about him and how he had to leave? At any rate, with what Sam ended up doing you would think his world just unfolded somehow.

Interesting speculation here. The idea of Sam getting kicked out is interesting. Obviously, Sam had Mark's keys when he was driving Mark's car, which would presumably have a key to the house on them.

However, prior to Mark's death, the keys he would use would most likely have been Emma's. It's certainly possible that Emma gave Sam her keys to use. It's almost certain that Emma's keys would be the ones with which Sam was most familiar as he would have seen her use them to lock and unlock the doors and therefore would know which one would lock and unlock the doors.

The question is then why are they seemingly tossed or placed on the bench on the back of the house?

Generally, when I unlock my door my motion brings me into the house. Therefore, to place them outside I would have to backtrack. So, it doesn't follow that Sam would have opened the door and would have tossed them back on the bench. :twocents:

However, this is in a rural area. I know that lots of people who live in rural areas leave their doors unlocked. Or have extra keys in the back.

It also seems that the doors were locked when Mel's father showed up, otherwise he would presumably have entered the home.

It's certainly possible that Sam ditched Emma's keys after he took Mark's keys.

Just some scattered thoughts. :snake:

 

[dangrsmind]

Please make sure the conversation is not about posters, about who is who, about who is reading or about the identity of anyone reading or posting.

Jbean, I am wondering if you can also mention the Websleuths policy on users that create numerous multiple accounts, sock puppets, etc. Thank you in advance.

 

[dangrsmind]

Interesting speculation here. The idea of Sam getting kicked out is interesting. Obviously, Sam had Mark's keys when he was driving Mark's car, which would presumably have a key to the house on them.

However, prior to Mark's death, the keys he would use would most likely have been Emma's. It's certainly possible that Emma gave Sam her keys to use. It's almost certain that Emma's keys would be the ones with which Sam was most familiar as he would have seen her use them to lock and unlock the doors and therefore would know which one would lock and unlock the doors.

The question is then why are they seemingly tossed or placed on the bench on the back of the house?

Generally, when I unlock my door my motion brings me into the house. Therefore, to place them outside I would have to backtrack. So, it doesn't follow that Sam would have opened the door and would have tossed them back on the bench. :twocents:

However, this is in a rural area. I know that lots of people who live in rural areas leave their doors unlocked. Or have extra keys in the back.

It also seems that the doors were locked when Mel's father showed up, otherwise he would presumably have entered the home.

It's certainly possible that Sam ditched Emma's keys after he took Mark's keys.

Just some scattered thoughts. :snake:

The keys could have been on a hook in the shed. And it is worth remembering that we don't really know who's keys these were. The doll key chain => Emma's keys connection is also speculation.

 

[AndresEscobar]

Good point. We don't exactly know when the murders occurred of course, but it seems likely it was the evening of September 15th. So if you are correct, they could have told him to find a hotel room the next day after returning from Michigan. Of course they might have just let him stay in the house too, but he was "broken" up with Emma at STFW and making out with KinkySuicide. It was a pretty small event and venue, so I assume the girls knew about this. Did they tell mom and then perhaps she told Sam to find himself a hotel room? Impossible to say given the available information unfortunately.

I'm wondering if after they broke up Sam hung around a bit, eventually patience wore thin and he was kicked out that tuesday night.

 

[AndresEscobar]

The keys could have been on a hook in the shed. And it is worth remembering that we don't really know who's keys these were. The doll key chain => Emma's keys connection is also speculation.

I agree. It's possible Emma just put the keychain on there or even Debra had a thing for dolls as well.

 

[DoctorZ]

The keys could have been on a hook in the shed. And it is worth remembering that we don't really know who's keys these were. The doll key chain => Emma's keys connection is also speculation.

More speculation here:

The back door could have had the kind of lock that requires a key on both sides. I'm sure Sam kept the doors locked while he was in the house. He could have unlocked the door, put the key in the pocket of his hoodie, sat on the bench, the key falls out. Maybe Mark pulled up, Sam heard it and went inside grabbing the wood on the way.

 

[JBean]

Jbean, I am wondering if you can also mention the Websleuths policy on users that create numerous multiple accounts, sock puppets, etc. Thank you in advance.

well that is a bannable offense. if you know or suspect that someone has multiple hats here then you should report it privately, but not reference your suspicions on the board.
Users are allowed one account.

 

[AndresEscobar]

More speculation here:

The back door could have had the kind of lock that requires a key on both sides. I'm sure Sam kept the doors locked while he was in the house. He could have unlocked the door, put the key in the pocket of his hoodie, sat on the bench, the key falls out. Maybe Mark pulled up, Sam heard it and went inside grabbing the wood on the way.

Yeah. We also don't know where Mark was killed.

 

[dangrsmind]

WICKED INTENT RADIO / WICKED UNDERGROUND RADIO HAS OFFICIALLY CLOSED ITS DOORS. WE WOULD LIKE TO THANK EVERYONE FOR THE YEARS OF SUPPORT YOU'VE SHOWN US!

http://www.wickedintentradio.net/

 

[AndresEscobar]

WICKED INTENT RADIO / WICKED UNDERGROUND RADIO HAS OFFICIALLY CLOSED ITS DOORS. WE WOULD LIKE TO THANK EVERYONE FOR THE YEARS OF SUPPORT YOU'VE SHOWN US!

http://www.wickedintentradio.net/

The economy is getting better. Maybe they got real jobs.

 

[DoctorZ]

The economy is getting better. Maybe they got real jobs.

No way, they would never sell out like that. I want to see a resume that references the WICKED .

 

[ziggy]

I'm with the last part of Andres speculation: upon deciding to take Mark's car and split, maybe Sam locked up the house using Emma's keys because he had them when he was going in and out of the house to make trips to Kroger or wherever (after the women were killed but before Mark) and he sat on the bench for a few minutes prior to leaving the scene for good and then realized he shouldn't keep those keys, left them there on the bench and left in Mark's car with Mark's keys.

I think the search warrant said "keys" plural. That doesn't sound like a spare key. Sounds like a set of keys left behind.

 

[AndresEscobar]

I'm with the last part of Andres speculation: upon deciding to take Mark's car and split, maybe Sam locked up the house using Emma's keys because he had them when he was going in and out of the house to make trips to Kroger or wherever (after the women were killed but before Mark) and he sat on the bench for a few minutes prior to leaving the scene for good and then realized he shouldn't keep those keys, left them there on the bench and left in Mark's car with Mark's keys.

I think the search warrant said "keys" plural. That doesn't sound like a spare key. Sounds like a set of keys left behind.

I guess it's important to note that the type of pants Sam wore had lots of pockets and pocket space, so it wouldn't be as cumbersome to carry a couple sets of keys in the pockets.