VA - Hannah Elizabeth Graham, 18, Charlottesville, 13 Sept 2014 - #13

[popsicle]

INTENT=INTEND?
Because you can=That you will?

That word bothers me. Intent to defile, like saying because he wants to be with her he will. idk Not saying he is or isn't guilty I just don't like it when the police can make up stuff to get or hold you. jmo idk

wait...what?

 

[cady]

Im thinking something in his car.

Yeah......some sort of evidence. We don't know yet. JMO

 

[Hiandmighty]

IMO, the only way for Hannah to have made this string of bad decisions she would have to be seriously impaired. Or seriously upset about something. None of the footage IMO show her to be severely drunk. She was walking with way to much zip. Only in the Mcgradys portion of the tapes does she appear impaired. Could someone at one of the parties slipped something into her drink and she left before it hit her? Could she have smoked something in the moments between surveillance tapes? Time frame short to be so impaired as the LE states. Unless the kids were drinking all afternoon? Smh. I'm so not getting her motivations for this night. Sorry for rambling. I'm new here. This case has me nuts. Praying for Hannah.

I've wondered if someone from the first party put something in her drink which made her act all disoriented like she appeared on the tapes. (And flushed in the still shots of her in the hallway)

 

[Eileen730]

Was she known to hang out at this mall?

 

[MuddyTires]

I feel the intent to defile is an attempted rape!

defile = sexual molest. Thus, while an attempted rape may satisfy the intent to defile aspect of abduction with intent to defile, it's not necessary. In addition, under Virginia law, attempted rape requires more than just the intent to molest.

 

[popsicle]

They must believe that they have evidence of INTENT. In a trial, specific intent must be proven.....JMO

This is important. I just confirmed police received the forensics report, which led to the defile charge
by Neal Augenstein via WTOP 7:56 PM yesterday

Not sure how someone gets this as making up evidence...

 

[jamicat]

Expanding on this thought. Mine is a very unpopular opinion for sure. This latest charge doesn't come as a surprise at all, does it? Just about everyone here assumed Hannah got in his car. Most assumed they would find something in the car/apartment to show Hannah was with JM after they left the bar. What LE cannot know, imo, is whether she went willingly or participated in any sex willingly. The 'abduction with intent to defile' charge in Virginia is interesting to me. When I was young and going to clubs, just about every guy that took a girl home would have been guilty of this. Telling a girl he'd take her home, then putting the moves on her.

Ok, sure...things look really bad for JM, but I'm not as willing as all you guys to pin every murder in Virginia on him. And really, while we are almost certain she is dead, until they find her body it's not fair to assume JM killed her.

Not everyone here is out with pitchforks and torches to get JM. The charge does not come as a surprise, no, because unfortunately things work out a certain way, in certain scenarios, and this is unfolding pretty much as typical. The odds from the get go, when Hannah was considered missing, sadly, was that someone abuducted her, picked her up and did her harm. That she was disoriented, confused, lost, in a haze and did not show up where she was planning to go and was in contact with friends at that destination giving signs she was trying to get there is a factor. So, it was no surprsie she was picked up by someone who might have wanted to take advantage of her situation. That it's been over a week since she's shown up makes it statistically likely she is not alive. I wish LE had been able to question JM earlier, just in case, he did drop her off alive, somewhere remote, If she was alive and hurt at then, time was of the essence. LE should have bent over backwards even at the expense of getting a conviction later on to get info on her whereabouts as it should have been all about Hannah. Maybe they did. I made some critical remarks that it did not so appear, but we may never know that part. I'd really be upset with LE right now if I were Hannah's family, because I do suspect that not all that could have been done with JM to get info was done. If Hannah is found and was possilby alive this weekend or later....well, I'd be upset.

Without a body, it's still going to be difficult to get a conviction for a murder charge in this case unless the forensic evidence as well as circumstantial is overwhelming as in the Alexis Murphy case. That JM seems to be neglgent, sloppy, messy from the way he keeps his car and his paperwork, there is probably a good chance, he was careless in clearing out evidence of having Hannah in his car. BUt he HAD to have known he was seen by a number of people with Hannah that night and by people who knew her. He HAD to know that LE had his car as a target with that search warrent. Yet, he did not behave cautiously. He has said very little to LE, in part to the legal advice he did get, and with an experienced attorney who already spoke to him and who is no doubt following this case with more inside info than we have, he is likely to say much of anything. He does not have to do so. That often is another reason not to charge a person--when you need info, it's easier to get BEFORE he is a suspect when Miranda rights kick in. Doubt JM will say much even at trial.

No doubt other possibliities will be presented such as consensual sex if there is forensic evidence of that activity. Attorney can maintain client did have consensual sex and then dropped her off at some locale and that she so insisted and seemed just fine. Until and unless body is found, it could be a possiblilty. BUt GPS features on phones and phone records are going to make certain scenarios impossible and highly unlkely. DA has to show proof beyond a reasonable doubt, not dot every i, cross every t and prove that it's the only possiblility to get a conviciton, but there may be men on the jury who pick up drunk girls all of the time, put the moves on her and often score, who may feel this was just another one fo those cases. And it might well have been, except Hannah never made it back. The charges might not even be there if Hannah had made it back. A line is crossed even beyond that of whether something is rape or not when the person disappears or is found injured, or dead.

As for the other cases, LE has DNA on file and that can be determined definitively. This forum has been good about not mixing the cases since it's just speculation at this point. For those case, it either is, or isn't , and hangs on a DNA match, not circumstantial evidence, liklihoods, looking like things. Hopefully posters refrain from overt discussion until and unless evidence shows the match.

This forum is really more for the victims and their loved ones, as it overtly says. I have to refrain from some of my opinions because I frankly am more an advocate for the rights of those accused, and am becoming increasingly concerned with how MSM and people, due the internet, social media are being whipped into frenzies before the facts are all in and the case is not clear. Looking at the facts carefully, I could not see anything other than a NOT GUILTY verdict for Casey Anthony, and unless i"m missing a lot of info, had I been on that jury, I'd have said the same It would have been a misstep in a justice system otherwise, looking at it objective and from the standoint of facts, not raw emotion. And I do believe personally that CA was in some way responsible for her baby's death. So, I agree that the DA still has an uphill climb to secure a conviction even with public opinion on his side.

GIven the released facts, I did feel there was a realistic chance that JM was not the perp. There had to be Hannah evidence with his things, and evidence of some sexual activity, IMO for those charges. Not just a "i gave her a ride, so yes, she was in the car" type of thing. Not just loose hairs, clothing, fibres. So at this point, it's hard to be a rationale person looking at the charges that LE put off making as long as they did, as convinced as they were that they had there man, to not assume that JM did not go down the typical path of these sort of cases.

And as far as any new development, for Hannah to be alive, is what I'd love to be next. Oh, how I so hope.

 

[Foxfire]

Retired DC Homicide detective Rod Wheeler to chime in on the Hannah Graham abduction after the commercials -- Fox News - Fox & Friends..

 

[Suthrnqt]

Oopsie!!

 

[Mrs. Gladden]

I hope those who have negative things to say about his tactics and emotions, are never in the position of this family. My guess is, they would change their tunes. I think he's seen and read the criticisms of him. He's working so hard, and has to look the Graham's in the face.

I can't even bear to think (at all) about being in the place of Hannah's parents.

I have had a problem with the tactics for several reasons. Some I have posted on, others not. If I have understood the presentation of what these tactics are trying to evoke, Longo is trying to get JM to come in to talk to them. In human nature, you often run into people that the harder they're pushed, the harder they refuse to comply. This seems to be the case here.

I've judged his tactics against other cases. Maybe that's fair, maybe not. All I can say is I really don't know how I would feel if it were me. I know without a doubt that I wouldn't want the police to cross a line, in any way, so a future conviction might be jeopardized.

 

[Bravo]

I respectfully disagree with your assessment, but don't dismiss your theory as impossible, just far less likely. I, myself think based on what I have learned in reading and taking it all in, I believe LJ fits the likely predator category far more than the un-lucky/random accident followed by extremely bad decisions group... In fact, I have a healthy suspicion that LJ has been a longtime predator. I think LJ, who likely lost his near perfect alibi as a long time cab driver, got sloppy when he didn't have the comfort and convenience of a cab to meet and or stalk prey, either inside or outside the cab. So what I'm saying in a nutshell is I think he got sloppy, because it wasn't his typical ritual and I believe he slipped up this time (praise God). Now we just need to find the perp before he harms anyone else.

I agree. At age 32 this wasn't his first rodeo. It's always been in the back of my mind as to why a 32 year old man is well known in an area where many younger students hang out. I pray they find him ASAP!

 

[ninij9]

Great question. We know so little really about her. I think that's because focus is on finding her. But I believe it has been suggested she was unfamiliar with downtown as in her freshman year she lived on campus.

 

[jamicat]

I've wondered if someone from the first party put something in her drink which made her act all disoriented like she appeared on the tapes. (And flushed in the still shots of her in the hallway)

No one needed to put anything in her drinks. It's been something that LE and others have freely said that she was likely to have been heavily intoxicated. UVA should be putting some pressure on those student "dinners" and other events that Hannah had left in that condition. She made herself vulnerable and flagrent breaking of underage drinking and/or other mind alterning substanced were in the picture. She and her friends put her in that confused state with alcohol and she under the legal drinking age. And yes, it's possible that she did have a drink or a smoke or take some drugs off tape at anytime. But it was a given that hse drank too much. Really those students at that party.....letting a drunk walk out on her own at that time of the night, There shoud be reprimand at very least for that. It's just that it pales, in the seriousness of what happened afterwards and what might have happened.

 

[Clover1099]

The "same car" is a shot of news footage recorded by reporters covering the case, not cctv :facepalm:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59792

This connection between the Alexis Murphy case and the burnt orange car is important and has everything to do with the HG case IMO. There is only one person who knows if there is a connection JM. I would be so relieved to have a serial killer off the street. As someone said this morning, probable cause is a low bar to pass, but I think LE in this case have to pursue this suspect. The differences of opinion on this board alone suggest a fair trial is possible. (Me -55 y.o. female attorney in VA with 19 y.o. daughter at VCU).

 

[Foxfire]

In virtually every serial predator/killer abduction case that I have researched in the past six years, there has been one common denominator that crops up again and again; meth/molly, either directly or indirectly. Time will tell in this case..jmo

Just an FYI:

What Is MDMA (Ecstasy or Molly)?
http://teens.drugabuse.gov/drug-facts/mdma-ecstasy-or-molly

 

[Elainetk]

I've wondered if someone from the first party put something in her drink which made her act all disoriented like she appeared on the tapes. (And flushed in the still shots of her in the hallway)

I have said all along that she may have been roofied as her behavior was somewhat bizarre. Could have been reason she was lost/disoriented.

 

[Elley Mae]

Police have been tight-lipped about the investigation and did not specify how they determined there was probable cause to charge the suspect under the felony abduction statute, which can include abduction with "intent to defile."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/09/2...sity-virginia-student-charged-with-abduction/

The Charlottesville Daily Progress reported that officers left the apartment carrying several items. Pleasants did not identify the items, but said police found what they were looking for and are testing the items at the state lab.

 

[Foxfire]

I have said all along that she may have been roofied as her behavior was somewhat bizarre. Could have been reason she was lost/disoriented.

As was MH...

 

[Waddles]

welcome bearmama!

:balloons:

 

[Perplexed 123]

This connection between the Alexis Murphy case and the burnt orange car is important and has everything to do with the HG case IMO. There is only one person who knows if there is a connection JM. I would be so relieved to have a serial killer off the street. As someone said this morning, probable cause is a low bar to pass, but I think LE in this case have to pursue this suspect. The differences of opinion on this board alone suggest a fair trial is possible. (Me -55 y.o. female attorney in VA with 19 y.o. daughter at VCU).

Maybe, but only the cctv footage, what's the point in circling the one in the news report? There has already been posters comparing this to JM's car, spoiler, placement of plates. It serves no purpose other than confuse.