VA - Nicole Lovell, 13, Blacksburg, 27 January 2016 #4 *Arrests*

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I agree murderers don't have to have a motive but even in their sick mind they usually do.

I honestly think we are looking in to the face of pure evil when it comes to these two defendants. Many times those who are evil know how to mask what they are really like. They are good at tricking others into believing they are good and use that to their advantage.

Imo, the motive in this case is the sickest of all motives and that was they both wanted to murder someone they found who had no value (according to these two psychopaths ) in order to satisfy their own desires. I believe this murder was nothing but a thrill kill to satisfy their own sick fantasies. I believe both of them trolled the net looking for who they perceived as the perfect victim and Nicole was the vulnerable one they chose. Often psychopaths who resort to murder know how to lure a victim by saying all the right words to pull them in. Look at how many girls got into Ted Bundy's car willingly only to never be seen again.

Snipped by me for focus.

OceanBlueEyes, I so agree with you about their motivations.

I keep coming back, as do others here, to the case of Leopold & Lowe. If any of you here haven't read about them, take some time to do so as their crime was very similar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_and_Loeb

I have a strong sense of "othering" in relation to this crime and the motivation of DE and NK.

By “othering”, we mean any action by which an individual or group becomes mentally classified in somebody’s mind as “not one of us”. Rather than always remembering that every person is a complex bundle of emotions, ideas, motivations, reflexes, priorities, and many other subtle aspects, it’s sometimes easier to dismiss them as being in some way less human, and less worthy of respect and dignity, than we are.

DE and NK came from exclusive backgrounds - privileged, upper middle class, high achieving, early schooling at expensive private Christian academies - that cultivated the belief that they're better than most other people, particularly those who are poorer and of lower socioeconomic status. Growing up in that kind of sheltered environment, particularly where conservative religious schooling is involved, kids are taught early on that they must separate themselves from others who are sinful, less worthy.

I wouldn't have believed it had I not seen it in some of the kids my own children grew up with. The transition from strict Christian schools to public schools is somewhat difficult, even when the public school kids are of the same socioeconomic background. One of my son's friends used to get in fights with the other kids when he came to play. Turns out, his parents and teachers had told him that public school kids were dangerous and violent and to be afraid that they would carry weapons and harm him. He had been told that most public school kids carry knives, etc. Ridiculous, especially as this is an upper middle class community, not a hotbed for criminal types. These kids eventually adapted to public school, but not until they rejected many of the social lessons they had been taught at that Christian school.

DE and NK, like Leopold and Loeb, grew up in a privileged environment where they were told they were extraordinary, "better" than most people and that they would grow up to be influential leaders in society. They likely were taught to identify strongly with other people like themselves and to reject others less worthy. At the extreme level, people who grow up in this environment believe they're above society's usual rules and norms. In people like DE and NK, this kind of warped thinking leads into the desire to commit crimes for the thrill of it, and also to validate their own belief that they were part of a superior group of people. It's said they enjoyed crime shows, so one of them probably developed the idea (again, like L & L) of committing the "perfect" murder. They chose someone who was an "other", someone they felt was beneath them, to victimize. Like the little fella who thought my son and his friends were all violent and carrying knives, DE & NK probably thought NL was one of those sinful, unChristian, low income girls who were sexually promiscuous and somehow deserved to be tricked and exploited.

If DE & NK are like L & L, one was the leader, the other a follower who had to be persuaded to participate in the worst parts of the crime. It will be up to LE to find out which one was the leader.
 
Or the trunk

I agree. I think NK was in the car when DE picked Nicole up. I also think she participated in the murder. Perhaps she was sitting in the back seat and reached forward putting her arm around Nicole in the front as to restrain her while DE slit her throat, or she (NK) actually slit Nicole's throat while DE held Nicole in her seat. I think they were both in on it. At that point, they moved Nicole's body to the trunk and went to the Walmart to purchase cleaning supplies.

Does anyone know if DE's Lexus is in the custody of the police and FBI. You would think it would be, but I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere. I would think that LE would be combing the car from top to bottom to collect as much forensic evidence as possible.
 
Or the trunk

Right. Why would they plan all of this for him to pick her up afterwards. It's obvious they are dumb but I don't for once second believe that NK help conspire this and not be fully be involved in every aspect of the abduction and murder.


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I have a strong sense of "othering" in relation to this crime and the motivation of DE and NK.

DE and NK came from exclusive backgrounds - privileged, upper middle class, high achieving, early schooling at expensive private Christian academies - that cultivated the belief that they're better than most other people, particularly those who are poorer and of lower socioeconomic status. Growing up in that kind of sheltered environment, particularly where conservative religious schooling is involved, kids are taught early on that they must separate themselves from others who are sinful, less worthy.


I didn't really follow that case, but I wonder if similar theories were used in Ethan Couch's affluenza defense?
 
With DE not talking other than to state "The truth will set me free" and NK only giving LE a version of events that says she was not present for the actual murder but that it occurred because she helped plan it, her charges reflect what prosecutors can prove, by her own statements.

So while her version of events is all we have right now and it is substantiated via phone records, texts, pings, etc. I doubt LE are taking it at face value. Their investigation continues, if they can prove she was more involved that what she admits, more charges could eventually follow. This is still a very active investigation by all appearances.
 
Many years ago I had a neighbor who had been a cutter and a burner (she burned herself with cigarettes). She was the weirdest, scariest person ever but I intentionally developed a friendship because she had the most adorable little boy and I wanted to keep an eye on him because she gave me spine chills. These self-harming people are odd, really odd. She said she wounded herself to learn how to control pain. She fantasized about living with a circus and performing as a sword swallower/fire eater and had gender identity issues. Honestly, she scared me and gave me goosebumps if I was alone with her in her house, which was rare. Really creepy. NK is cray-cray too.

BTW the little boy never showed signs of physical abuse. If anything she left him to play alone in his crib too much (hours on end), and fed him cold formula, milk and food since birth but otherwise he was fine and healthy, clean and seemed happy.
 
I agree. I think NK was in the car when DE picked Nicole up. I also think she participated in the murder. Perhaps she was sitting in the back seat and reached forward putting her arm around Nicole in the front as to restrain her while DE slit her throat, or she (NK) actually slit Nicole's throat while DE held Nicole in her seat. I think they were both in on it. At that point, they moved Nicole's body to the trunk and went to the Walmart to purchase cleaning supplies.

Does anyone know if DE's Lexus is in the custody of the police and FBI. You would think it would be, but I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere. I would think that LE would be combing the car from top to bottom to collect as much forensic evidence as possible.

I agree that NK was in the car. I cannot imagine that the murder took place in the car, though, because of the blood and the risk of tearing through the upholstery. Perhaps one of them rendered NL unconscious, and then removed her from the car before stabbing her to death, placing her in the trunk afterwards. Stabbing is so violent. I cannot wrap my head around it, unless the person is filled with rage. Yet this all seems so methodical. I wonder if either NK or DE was driven to madness, like the narrator in "The Tell Tale Heart" by Edgar Allan Poe. In that story, it was the victim's eye, with a film over it, that caused the narrator's rage.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/fbi-profiler-analyzes-virginia-murder-mystery-36708746


Not sure if this has been posted but it made me second guess my personal
Thoughts on the real manipulator in this case. My opinion all along has been that NK was the same if not more involved in the making of this devilish happening. Watching this former profiler speak on DE and his ability to mislead people easily. . Idk .. ?!?! I still lean more toward NK due to the lack of soul in her eye. JMO... It's crazy to see how this case has progressed from little to no info-------> information overindulge. [emoji15]

Like you, my opinion all along has been that NK was the mastermind. However if the FBI profiler is correct, and if DE has been shown to be a master-manipulator, then maybe I am reading the clues incorrectly.

My reasons for suspecting NK as the mastermind is her emotional attachment to every detail, her exuberance and the amount of information she is choosing to share, and the soulless look in her eyes.


Consider this scenario


NK co-directed theater productions in high school (i.e., seeks out drama)
NK has trouble adjusting to college, seeks psychotherapy
NK discusses 'cutting' in middle school and high school, thoughts of suicide as well as being bullied
DE starts tutoring NK in math, a friendship develops
NK needs an emergency appendectomy, DE takes her to hospital
NK becomes more enamored with DE
Psychiatrist is helping NK work through her past issues to 'begin to love herself'
NK creates online profile with DE's image, seeks out a middle schooler to confront her past
NK catfishes NL, because NK is a 'mean girl' or is somehow trying to reconcile her teenage issues
NK confides in DE that she is psychotherapy
NK decides she needs to murder NL to 'kill' her past and 'begin to love herself'
NK comes clean with DE, explains that she created fake profile as part of working through issues
NK and DE discuss how to break it off with NL (NK is really plotting murder, DE sees it just as 'helping' his friend and being honest with NL)
DE contacts NL to arrange a meeting using the profile NK made (Jan 24-27)
NK accompanies DE to meet NL under the guise of 'coming clean'
NK slashes NL's throat while DE is driving
DE panics, agrees to hide NL's body


Fire away.

I keep thinking NK was the one to catfish NL. I would imagine that law enforcement will know soon, if not already.

If the charges against NK are upgraded, we may have our answer.

I still have a difficult time believing that the murder took place in the car. In all of their plotting, DE and NK must have discussed the amount of blood involved with this sort of death. I imagine the cleaning supplies were to remove the blood from their bodies, after the crime was committed outside, and the trunk, if it was planned to be used for transport. It seems that they would have purchased a tarp or something to protect the trunk of the car, as well, if the plan was to hide the body there for a while.

If NK did what you suggest and used DE's likeness without his permission, wouldn't DE go straight to the police? Maybe not.

I am beginning to agree that there is no understanding a crime like this one. No scenario makes sense to me.

What one piece of information do you feel would be most helpful in piecing together this mystery?

For me, I most want to know whether forensic evidence supports that DE is the one who was behind the inappropriate communication with NL. I would also like to know whether or not NK has a boyfriend separate from DE.
 
With DE not talking other than to state "The truth will set me free" and NK only giving LE a version of events that says she was not present for the actual murder but that it occurred because she helped plan it, her charges reflect what prosecutors can prove, by her own statements.

So while her version of events is all we have right now and it is substantiated via phone records, texts, pings, etc. I doubt LE are taking it at face value. Their investigation continues, if they can prove she was more involved that what she admits, more charges could eventually follow. This is still a very active investigation by all appearances.


Exactly. LE will now be very busy weeding out fact from fiction by collecting hard evidence that ties either one or both of them to Nicole, to the actual murder, to certain locations at certain times, etc, to build their case.

Hard evidence = autopsy, online posts/conversations, ip addresses, phone pings, car locations based on gps, cctv images, credit/debit card purchases, murder weapon, other items (cleaning supplies, Nicole's blanket, etc), fingerprints, dna (bodily fluids), hair and fibers, etc.

Further they will be interviewing lots of people to find witnesses that further cement forensic evidence.

They need a strong case based on hard facts as these two will try to confuse the jury by pointing the finger at the other.
 
Or the trunk
Jeebus, I hope they didn't torture/ laugh..at this innocent

...what kind of time frame have we established ?

Anyone know the whereabouts of DE and NK up until their arrests ?
 
I didn't really follow that case, but I wonder if similar theories were used in Ethan Couch's affluenza defense?

I haven't followed that one closely, either, but I found this about the "affluenza" defense:

What Is ‘Affluenza’? The Ethan Couch Defense

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/12/29/what-is-affluenza-the-ethan-couch-defense/

The term “affluenza” was popularized in the late 1990s by Jessie O’Neill, the granddaughter of a past president of General Motors, when she wrote the book “The Golden Ghetto: The Psychology of Affluence.” It’s since been used to describe a condition in which children — generally from richer families — have a sense of entitlement, are irresponsible, make excuses for poor behavior, and sometimes dabble in drugs and alcohol.

Some might think affluenza is a form of narcissistic personality disorder, but it doesn't really fit. It's just an excuse for indulging your own desire for thrills and fun times without concern for others.

DE & NK seem to be in a different league. Ethan Couch and people like him kill people because of their own recklessness and selfishness, but that's different from planning and executing a murder for the thrill of it. Both crimes do probably come from some distorted sense of economic and social entitlement and narcissism.

ETA: US law doesn't recognize narcissism as a legal defense.
 
She's da bomb isn't she? :loveyou: :bombshell:



http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/dav...the-course-cross-country-runner-says/37845942

This article makes it sound like he took Nicole to Keepers' dorm. He gave her a "side hug" and took her to have her throat slit. No, wait, he went to go get Keepers and then THEY went to cut Nicole's throat. Sickos!


Just jumping off your post...

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/dav...the-course-cross-country-runner-says/37845942

In the above link it is reported that:

"Keepers told investigators that she saw him kill Lovell and put her in his Lexus."

Soooo... Keepers WAS there when NL was murdered... According to NK....

(I am behind in reading... So this was news to me...

I figured NK was there... But I didn't think she had admitted it...)

:waitasec:
 
Just jumping off your post...

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/dav...the-course-cross-country-runner-says/37845942

In the above link it is reported that:

"Keepers told investigators that she saw him kill Lovell and put her in his Lexus."

Soooo... Keepers WAS there when NL was murdered... According to NK....

(I am behind in reading... So this was news to me...

I figured NK was there... But I didn't think she had admitted it...)

:waitasec:


Just summarizing, according to NK, she planned the murder with DE, then watched the murder happen, then helped clean up and dispose of the body.

Where was she when she watched? :thinking:

I don't believe her, but even if her version was true I believe she should still be charged with murder 1, right? She planned it, possibly helped to execute it (for example by providing the knife), and did nothing to stop it nor reported it, then helped hide the body.
 
wdbj7 is the only news org reporting that Natalie Keepers claims to have witnessed or been present during the killing. All other orgs reporting on this case have quoted the prosecutor as saying NK adamantly denies having been present during the murder. I tend to think wdbj7's reporting is inaccurate about this. JMO
 
wdbj7 is the only news org reporting that Natalie Keepers claims to have witnessed or been present during the killing. All other orgs reporting on this case have quoted the prosecutor as saying NK adamantly denies having been present during the murder. I tend to think wdbj7's reporting is inaccurate about this. JMO

Some of the DAs quoted words are confusing. In one he is to have said at the hearing 'she murdered someone she didn't even know.'
 
They settled on a plan, according to Pettitt: “He would take her to a remote location and cut her throat.”
....
Property owners along Craig Creek Road in Blacksburg said police arrived sometime Saturday, Jan. 30. Authorities appeared to focus in on one parcel in particular, where a large family home sits atop a hill and at the end of a long, winding gravel driveway in the midst of thick woods. It is entirely surrounded by the national forest.
....
Dru Jones, who owns a vacant piece of land across the road, said neighbors told her that police arrived Saturday, and officials later called her to see if it was okay to park on her property. On Sunday, Jan. 31, at about 10 a.m., Jones paid a visit herself and saw a few police cars, a crime scene van and men in camouflage uniforms and orange vests combing the woods across the road. Jones said they left Tuesday.
....
Along Craig Creek Road at night, it would have been thickly dark — there are no street lamps — and the hillsides would have been covered in snow.
....
Where police searched is densely wooded, though winter has stripped many trees of their leaves. There is a sloping hillside and tangles of fallen branches and tree trunks.

More at link....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...va-tech-where-nicole-lovell-was-to-be-killed/
 
wdbj7 is the only news org reporting that Natalie Keepers claims to have witnessed or been present during the killing. All other orgs reporting on this case have quoted the prosecutor as saying NK adamantly denies having been present during the murder. I tend to think wdbj7's reporting is inaccurate about this. JMO

At this point (and things can change with new details), I don't believe Natalie was there for the actual murder. I think she made the comment to investigators that she was excited about being involved in something secretive and special -- referring to perhaps cyber stalking Nicole (?) because I think DE asked her to help him find out more about NL. I think the prosecutor used her words against her and in a different context jmo.

Obviously things got WAY out of hand, and DE and NK talk ways to get rid of Nicole. I think Natalie may have been flattered by DE, regardless of her boyfriend status. He was her tutor, she looked up to him. They were friendly, too...he immediately took her to the emergency room when she needed medical attention ASAP. He was her hero in a way. Maybe in a warped way, she felt she owed it to him to help him dispose of the body. Idk it's crazy.
 
They settled on a plan, according to Pettitt: “He would take her to a remote location and cut her throat.”
....
Property owners along Craig Creek Road in Blacksburg said police arrived sometime Saturday, Jan. 30. Authorities appeared to focus in on one parcel in particular, where a large family home sits atop a hill and at the end of a long, winding gravel driveway in the midst of thick woods. It is entirely surrounded by the national forest.
....
Dru Jones, who owns a vacant piece of land across the road, said neighbors told her that police arrived Saturday, and officials later called her to see if it was okay to park on her property. On Sunday, Jan. 31, at about 10 a.m., Jones paid a visit herself and saw a few police cars, a crime scene van and men in camouflage uniforms and orange vests combing the woods across the road. Jones said they left Tuesday.
....
Along Craig Creek Road at night, it would have been thickly dark — there are no street lamps — and the hillsides would have been covered in snow.
....
Where police searched is densely wooded, though winter has stripped many trees of their leaves. There is a sloping hillside and tangles of fallen branches and tree trunks.

More at link....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...va-tech-where-nicole-lovell-was-to-be-killed/


Just adding:
It was three days after full moon, so if it wasn't cloudy I would think there would have been a little bit visibility from the moon itself and from the moon light reflecting off the snow.
 
Prosecutor Mary Pettit is also quoted as saying about Natalie Keepers when arguing against bail that she "is in the same position as the person who carried out the murder,"

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-blacksburg-bail-20160204-story.html

That gives me the impression that NK has not admitted to witnessing the murder. Now of course that doesn't mean she wasn't there or did not witness or participate. I do not believe she has admitted it to LE as the wdbj article suggests.
 
wdbj7 is the only news org reporting that Natalie Keepers claims to have witnessed or been present during the killing. All other orgs reporting on this case have quoted the prosecutor as saying NK adamantly denies having been present during the murder. I tend to think wdbj7's reporting is inaccurate about this. JMO

Thanks for that information, ticya! :seeya:
 
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