GUILTY VA - Nicole Lovell, 13, murdered, Blacksburg, 27 Jan 2016 #8

[flourish]

There seems to be a lot of overlap, but I had read this before:



Is It Narcissism or Sociopathy? -
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/201707/is-it-narcissism-or-sociopathy

Hmm... I guess I don't understand the original post criticizing another poster and stating as fact that those two personality disorders are actually mental illnesses when the article just provided doesn't actually support that.
Shrug.

 

[VanillaRose]

I've always understood them to be mental illnesses, if not, my apologies. When I look it up, there seems to be conflicting info, as nature and nurture affect people to varying degrees, but imo I don't see how you can say there is no mental component then say someone is a sociopathic narcissist *shrugs*

 

[VanillaRose]

I just realized we both ended with a shrug, haha. I swear I wasn't trying to copy you or be smart. I didn't notice until after I posted my reply.

 

[flourish]

I've always understood them to be mental illnesses, if not, my apologies. When I look it up, there seems to be conflicting info, as nature and nurture affect people to varying degrees, but imo I don't see how you can say there is no mental component then say someone is a sociopathic narcissist *shrugs*

Not having those classified as mental illnesses isn't my doing lol... I only wish I had that kind of power! I don't argue there isn't a mental component, I argue that narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy are personality disorders not mental illnesses, as that's how they are currently classified.

That isn't what the post I responded to said, though... It was calling out another poster's reference and "correcting" their post stating those are mental illnesses when they factually are not classified as such.

We can all shrug ☺

ETA I don't have time to peruse my dsm ATM but maybe another time.

 

[Hoosgirl]

Remember how the defense in opening statements claimed that all DE wanted to do was wipe the phone, not kill? They must have totally been holding out hope that the messages wouldn't come in. Check out this quote:

A download from Keepers’ phone shows a Kik chat in which Eisenhauer — under his online handle “Doctor Tombstone” — says, “Actually, an idea came to mind. What we do is break in, swap out depression meds for like, cyanide caps, put them by her bed, take her iPhone and iPad and destroy them. It’s only a matter of time before she takes a pill.”

http://www.galaxgazette.com/content/eisenhauer-pleads-no-contest-murder

A wee bit more than just wiping the phone.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[cujenn81]

Babies are not born as 'narcissistic sociopaths. Babies LEARN to be sociopathic narcissists from their upbringing and
parenting mistakes.
Babies and very young children are like a blank slate. It's the pieces of the puzzle what is put on that slate that
makes up the whole adult child. Whether parents are poor role models, or they are negligent or abusive- all of this
combines to form the personality of the adult child.
Most parents today who have raised deviant children have made the above mistakes and failed to correct little
problems when the child is little.
IMO, there is too little time and education by parents spent in raising their children. Parents allow children to raise themselves with too little effort by the parents in building good adults.

This is unequivocally untrue.

Research shows anti-social personality disorder (aka "sociopaths") is most likely due to BOTH genetic and social factors, but nearly all scientific studies suggest there's a strong genetic influence.

Not only that, but any trauma that occurs that disrupts the central nervous system (which could generate the release of certain hormones) or head trauma (which could disrupt the prefrontal cortex) can also play a significant role in the development of ASPD.

The cause of sociopathy (or even psychopathy) is not black and white, and to place the blame solely on the shoulders of the parents is an incredibly short-sighted and narrow way of looking at things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cujenn81]

Aren't narcissism and sociopathy personality disorders as opposed to mental illnesses?

Personality disorders and mental illnesses are not opposing types of illness. Personality disorders are a specific type of mental illness. Where mental illness is a broad category (encompassing mood, personality, anxiety, psychotic disorders, etc.), a personality disorder (ASPD, narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, etc.) is a subtype within that broad category. I think you may be thinking of the difference between a personality disorder and a MOOD disorder.

The primary difference between PD'S & MD's is that one indicates an individual who exhibits abnormal personality traits (which cannot be treated with medicinal therapy) vs. an individual who exhibits abnormal mood changes (which CAN usually be easily managed with medicinal therapy).

However, they are both mental illnesses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[VanillaRose]

When I replied, not only did I think they were mental illnesses but googled to confirm and what I read that night indicated they are, like this site:

Narcissistic vs. Antisocial or Sociopathic Personality Disorders

What is a personality disorder?

This is the definition give by the Mayo Clinic:

A personality disorder is a type of mental illness in which a person has trouble perceiving and relating to situations and to people, including themselves.

I didn't realize there was any debate until you replied. Again, my apologies if I was hasty in my words.

 

[Elainera]

Add that to the not so swift list.

But, it was NK who told them where Nicole's body was.


This may be why he was searching for lakes near Blacksburg found on his computer...

http://www.galaxgazette.com/content/breaking-eisenhauer-pleads-no-contest-murder

Eisenhauer told B.B. he was worried because when they sent him off to college, his parents told him “not to mess up.”

He began talking to B.B. about ways to “get rid of his problem.”

“One idea that B.B. recalled was Eisenhauer’s suggestion that he drive his car into the water with Nicole in it; he was a good swimmer, so he would swim out and leave Nicole in it,” said Pettitt.

He eventually told B.B. that he was going to do it, and his phone would be off; the next day he said Lovell was dead.

bbm The more I read about the conversations between BB and DE the more I'm perplexed that she wasn't arrested as well. At the very least this girl knew that DE was going to hide a dead body! If these texts took place before NL was killed she might have been able to prevent it had she gone to LE with them.

I find this so shocking.

 

[JanetElaine]

bbm The more I read about the conversations between BB and DE the more I'm perplexed that she wasn't arrested as well. At the very least this girl knew that DE was going to hide a dead body! If these texts took place before NL was killed she might have been able to prevent it had she gone to LE with them.

I find this so shocking.

I guess we're still not sure of her current age? But if she was 13 at the time, and 'involved' (gag) with David, she could have been jealous. At that age of course they know right from wrong, but they're also not capable yet of *really* seeing the consequences, especially over the long term. It wouldn't surprise me if at the same time BB was in favor of any solution to get 'the competition' out of her way, as well as her brain not being able to grasp that David planning to murder Nicole would mean Nicole would be actually dead, for good. Yes, she knows dead is dead, but I'm not sure at that age she'd be able to grasp the severeness of someone planning a murder as it would also be very far out of her scope of reality. I'm not finding the words I'm looking for but I hope I've been able to somewhat convey what I mean. I'm not ready to crucify BB... there are numerous examples of grown adults who knew someone was planning murder and froze/had no idea what to do/had no idea they were serious/etc.. Or, BB could be a heartless so-an-so, of course. But, I can see where it could be she's not, and the whole situation was so ridiculously out of (her) reality that it didn't even sink in.

 

[watergirl62]

I guess we're still not sure of her current age? But if she was 13 at the time, and 'involved' (gag) with David, she could have been jealous. At that age of course they know right from wrong, but they're also not capable yet of *really* seeing the consequences, especially over the long term. It wouldn't surprise me if at the same time BB was in favor of any solution to get 'the competition' out of her way, as well as her brain not being able to grasp that David planning to murder Nicole would mean Nicole would be actually dead, for good. Yes, she knows dead is dead, but I'm not sure at that age she'd be able to grasp the severeness of someone planning a murder as it would also be very far out of her scope of reality. I'm not finding the words I'm looking for but I hope I've been able to somewhat convey what I mean. I'm not ready to crucify BB... there are numerous examples of grown adults who knew someone was planning murder and froze/had no idea what to do/had no idea they were serious/etc.. Or, BB could be a heartless so-an-so, of course. But, I can see where it could be she's not, and the whole situation was so ridiculously out of (her) reality that it didn't even sink in.

This study focuses on adolescents and suicide, but I think it may be relevant to what you are saying.

+++++

The research suggests that there is a significant developmental lag between the intensification of emotional and behavioral states that accompany the hormonal changes of puberty in early adolescence and the mastery of cognitive and emotional coping skills that are enabled through cortical development during late adolescence and early adulthood. This lag leaves vulnerable adolescents prone to increased moodiness with biased interpretations of experiences, self-criticality, poor judgment, and emotion-focused coping.

These features of adolescent development may also contribute to the increase in suicidal ideation that has been observed as youth move through the middle school years.

Young adolescents are particularly vulnerable to perceiving problems as overwhelming and to seeking “all or nothing” solutions. Given the earlier timing of their pubertal development, girls are most vulnerable, and indeed studies indicate that girls report more suicidal ideation and attempts than boys.*

+++++

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819538/

IMO After hours of monitoring the online activity of an 'emo' tween, there is definitely a tendency to romanticise death and suicide and cutting, etc in some peer groups. IMO There is a huge gap between the fantastical dark romanticism and reality, but they can't really conceptualize tbat in middle-school years, yet some are drawn to it like moths to a flame. Nothing wrong with the curiosity, but it does require heart-felt guidance and open discussion. IMO

Sent from my LG-H740 using Tapatalk

 

[2Hope4]

There was a defense team mole posting here from inside the court room. Planting seeds of defense theory and spin but they couldn't become a VI or they would have to testify. Whatever. Game over. [emoji57]

I wonder if we'll see some of the same when NK goes to trial? With DE we didn't hear anything about him before trial. News was only reporting on what she said, or did. But have we had any posters in support of her? I can't remember, it's been a long time.

 

[Cryptic]

Does anybody know if DE was charged with Capital Murder (death penalty potential) or, if the specific murder charge is an LWOP level charge?

 

[watergirl62]

Does anybody know if DE was charged with Capital Murder (death penalty potential) or, if the specific murder charge is an LWOP level charge?

From July 2016

She (Pettitt) also said if convicted, Eisenhauer faces life without parole plus fifteen years, while Keepers could serve life plus five years.

Eisenhauer's charges are not a capital offense because there is no evidence that there was sexual activity following the abduction, Pettitt said.

http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/D...tion-to-death-of-Nicole-Lovell-388291032.html

 

[Cryptic]

From July 2016

She (Pettitt) also said if convicted, Eisenhauer faces life without parole plus fifteen years, while Keepers could serve life plus five years.

Eisenhauer's charges are not a capital offense because there is no evidence that there was sexual activity following the abduction, Pettitt said.

http://www.wdbj7.com/content/news/D...tion-to-death-of-Nicole-Lovell-388291032.html

Thanks for the information. Virginia seems to have the same death penalty standards as Texas in that there must be two felonies committed in the course of the crime before a defendant can be charged with capital murder.

 

[Really?]

Thanks for the information. Virginia seems to have the same death penalty standards as Texas in that there must be two felonies committed in the course of the crime before a defendant can be charged with capital murder.

Then there are two. Kidnapping ...holding against her will....and murder!

 

[watergirl62]

VA:
Capital offenses include willful, deliberate, premeditated killing: In connection with abduction for extortion of money or pecuniary benefit; for hire; committed while confined to state correctional facility; armed robbery; rape, sodomy; law officer for purposes of interfering with official duties; multiple murders; victim in commission of abduction, intended to extort money or for pecuniary benefit; controlled substance; outrageously or wantonly vile, horrible or inhuman; continuing serious threat to society; willful killing of a pregnant woman by person who knows woman is pregnant; any person under 14 by a person 21 and older; act of terrorism.

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/virginia-law/virginia-capital-punishment-laws.html


TX caital homicide:
Victim is peace officer or fireman in official duty; while committing/attempting to commit kidnapping, burglary, robbery, aggravated sexual assault or arson; obstruction; retaliation; for remuneration or employs another; while escaping; incarcerated and victim is employee or inmate; murder more than one person during same criminal transaction or scheme or course of conduct; victim under 6 years.

http://statelaws.findlaw.com/texas-law/texas-capital-punishment-laws.html



Correct. It looks like VA specifies reasons for abduction and in Texas kidnapping in and of itself would automatically make it a capital offense.

 

[Cryptic]

Then there are two. Kidnapping ...holding against her will....and murder!

As the victim voluntarily met DE on the night of the murder, the prosecutor might have felt that it would be too difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was then abducted by DE later that night.

 

[Yellow]

I have not been following this case in a while. Who is this BB? Another 13 year girl he was carrying on with I gather?

 

[Yellow]

He was a nice-enough looking, athletic, intelligent young man who likely had endless opportunities in both HS and his short college stint to hook up with any number of age-appropriate willing females.

He knew what he was involved with when he searched out and groomed this vulnerable young early adolescent

At a school like VT, there would be hundreds if not thousands of young girls to hook up with. College kids do it all the time. Why not go with NK? He definitely could have gotten an age-appropriate girl. No, something sick made him want to go with a young girl. It wasn't because he just wanted to hook up. On a big campus like VT, there would be many chances to hook up with a girl then never see her again if that's your modus operandi.

He sought he out deliberately because he wanted an innocent young virgin girl. So glad he will be put away for life now.