GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #6

[Schmaley]

So, I have spent the last day and a half reading through lots of old material. Whew.

At this point, IMO, I agree with those who say this was not an intentional homicide. I do not believe they ever intended to kill Noah. But I don't like calling it an accident, either. I will say it was not intentional but I think reckless actions were taken which demonstrated a disregard for his life, and for Baby A's. Actions that any reasonable adult would know put their lives at great risk.

IMO, I don't know how well either of them were equipped to be parents (especially AW) but I think the lack of skill and sound judgement was exacerbated by drug use.

I think Noah was placed in the tank and I think there was someone else involved. I think one or more people close to them at least knew what happened and/or were involved afterwards.

And that's that I think about that. Guess I fell off the fence, huh?

Agreed.
Still surprised she was on drugs because I have given it a substantial amount of thought and tried to entertain every scenario and i have kept returning to the fact that baby A is still an infant which means that she had to be using around the labor and thus wouldn't she be withdrawing when she was in the maternity ward? And I felt like her breastfeeding still seemed a sign of some maternal instinct and even made sense why the nap happened. I remember being much more tired on days when my babies would have nursed throughout the night. I think it is stupid and thoughtless to be on drugs as a mother but furthermore be giving your baby milk that is laced with whatever you had.

My thoughts are all over the place and my feelings are quickly being replaced with facts. Glad A is out of that environment.

 

[ANonyMs]

And I felt like her breastfeeding still seemed a sign of some maternal instinct and even made sense why the nap happened. I remember being much more tired on days when my babies would have nursed throughout the night. I think it is stupid and thoughtless to be on drugs as a mother but furthermore be giving your baby milk that is laced with whatever you had.

But we don't know if she was breastfeeding or not - that is just one of the ways Baby A could have continued to ingest the opiates. I would hope that was it but there is another possibility - intentionally administering.

For our members with more medical knowledge - do any of the possible opiates that cause Baby A's syndrome come in a form that can be accidentally absorbed through skin contact? Or second hand smoke inhalation? Heroin can be smoked. Second hand smoke could also cause nasty respiratory issues.

Edited to add: yep....looks like it is possible... http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/141833.pdf

 

[courtneyb]

But we don't know if she was breastfeeding or not - that is just one of the ways Baby A could have continued to ingest the opiates. I would hope that was it but there is another possibility - intentionally administering.

For our members with more medical knowledge - do any of the possible opiates that cause Baby A's syndrome come in a form that can be accidentally absorbed through skin contact? Or second hand smoke inhalation? Heroin can be smoked. Second hand smoke could also cause nasty respiratory issues.

Edited to add: yep....looks like it is possible... http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/141833.pdf

Fentanyl patches could be absorbed through the skin, and are becoming a more commonly abused street drug, at 100 x the strength of morphine.

Second hand smoke from smoking heroin would not register sufficient levels for a diagnosis of NAS, unless they were deliberately blowing it in her face to get her intoxicated.

Smoking heroin is usually one of the first routes heroin users try, then snorting, then to the needle. Smoking heroin is one of the least effective ways to "get high".. It wastes a lot of the drug. That's why most heroin addicts end up injecting as their route of preference.

I really don't believe she was breastfeeding. It's hard, it's work, it's time consuming, it creates a strong maternal bond. Babies and Mommies that have that type of bond doesn't equate with a baby left home alone, sick, untreated. Since I don't believe that, then I guess I have to believe she was being given drugs somehow.

 

[LaLaw2000]

I want to believe his death was accidental,too. But putting their own child in a septic tank is despicable,IMO.

Doing a little catching up here..............

BBM:

The very action of putting their son in a septic tank is why I don't think it was an accident. It was either through neglect or overdosing, IMO. If it had been an accident, why hide the body and especially in such a horrible, horrible place? How can any parent bear to even think of their child being in such a place, much less placing their child there? Why the cover up for an accident unless it involved their illegal drugs?

I haven't commented very much because it makes me physically ill to think of where Noah was placed. I look at that precious little face and if I were to start to run to the bathroom, I'd be throwing up by the time I got there.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for either parent. No punishment is too severe as far as I'm concerned.

This entire post is just MOO.

 

[Schmaley]

I thought I read somewhere that she was nursing her! That blows out that theory.

 

[courtneyb]

I thought I read somewhere that she was nursing her! That blows out that theory.

I haven't read that anywhere. But, then again, I haven't read that she wasn't. I just don't think she was.

 

[LaLaw2000]

In Louisiana, babies and expectant mothers are only tested if there is an admission or suspicion of drug use. If positive, it is reported to CPS and each case is handled on a case to case basis. Some babies will be able to go home with the mother if a safety plan is in place.

I see you live in South Louisiana, courtneyb. I live in North Louisiana and I can tell you that babies are tested here. One of my nieces is an RN on that floor of one of our local hospitals here and she talks about the increased number of babies born addicted. It is discovered through blood testing in addition to the routine testing. Addicted babies are not allowed to go home with the mother until she has successfully completed a drug program or is at the very least going to a relatives home with the baby.

MOO

 

[Zuri]

Was CPS involved with this family prior to March? For some reason I am thinking this was not the first time, but I may not be remembering correctly. Also, do family members live close by? And how involved were they with these children and parents? I am just shocked that no one seemed to raise alarm prior to Noah's death. Or did they?

 

[courtneyb]

In my ob/gyn's office, there is a sign on each exam room door stating their right to test if drug use is suspected. I just had a baby 7 months ago and was never tested, nor my baby. Or my other 3 kids. I am an RN also, and it is common to test if there is suspected use or admitted abuse. If a pregnant mother is tested and tests positive, there is a safety plan implemented involving regular drug screens, counseling, etc., so that mom is able to take the baby home at birth if she complies and there are no other CPS issues.

I wonder why the difference.. Did your niece say the testing is mandatory and on everyone? It's not here..

Maybe they have the right to implement the testing as much as they see fit, as needed?


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[LaLaw2000]

The testing is done along with the routine testing according to my niece. I will ask her again, but we had this conversation because we were talking about the methamphetamine problem here and the number of Mother's using it even right up to the very birth.

 

[ANonyMs]

Was CPS involved with this family prior to March? For some reason I am thinking this was not the first time, but I may not be remembering correctly. Also, do family members live close by? And how involved were they with these children and parents? I am just shocked that no one seemed to raise alarm prior to Noah's death. Or did they?

I seem to recall that in one of the earlier MSM's or pressers there was a mention that this family was known to social services. I will see if I can find it.

Edited to add: Still looking for it. I recall it being in the early stages, maybe right after he was found...and maybe in something associated with Sheriff Davis. Will keep looking.

 

[Luvrosco]

I seem to recall that in one of the earlier MSM's or pressers there was a mention that this family was known to social services. I will see if I can find it.

Edited to add: Still looking for it. I recall it being in the early stages, maybe right after he was found...and maybe in something associated with Sheriff Davis. Will keep looking.

Yes, I remember that statement. I always wondered what it meant. As a teacher we are mandated by law to report any suspicions of abuse, which includes neglect. I've always wondered if his teacher or principal reported them to CPS.

 

[mpnola]

Im in Louisiana. I know they tested me for AIDS or stds before I gave birth. And they test blood sugar stuff. I dont know, it seemed like a few blood test things. Maybe the drug test is in one of those things at some point. I would have no reason to think about it since I dont do drugs. Im just saying that maybe they do it in the batch of tests but we dont realize it because its negative

 

[menmo]

Well, thanks to AnnaGrace, I did find AW's father's obit.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/VAPULASK/2001-04/0986877045

lol..and apparently no great feat on my part as now I see that it is posted to several other sites.

Did anyone find it odd that they labeled some of his kin, even a daughter (not AW), as "special". I know some people are closer than others but that's just strange to me for an obituary, or even be pointed out.

Agreed.
Still surprised she was on drugs because I have given it a substantial amount of thought and tried to entertain every scenario and i have kept returning to the fact that baby A is still an infant which means that she had to be using around the labor and thus wouldn't she be withdrawing when she was in the maternity ward? And I felt like her breastfeeding still seemed a sign of some maternal instinct and even made sense why the nap happened. I remember being much more tired on days when my babies would have nursed throughout the night. I think it is stupid and thoughtless to be on drugs as a mother but furthermore be giving your baby milk that is laced with whatever you had.

My thoughts are all over the place and my feelings are quickly being replaced with facts. Glad A is out of that environment.

I know nothing about heroine and will google if needed, but if could someone just got off the drug for enough time to give birth and not test positive? How long does heroine stay in one's system? Just wondering if AW had a c section and went off of drugs for a time and then resumed upon turning home. I, too, can't see how she took that sweet baby home.

Im in Louisiana. I know they tested me for AIDS or stds before I gave birth. And they test blood sugar stuff. I dont know, it seemed like a few blood test things. Maybe the drug test is in one of those things at some point. I would have no reason to think about it since I dont do drugs. Im just saying that maybe they do it in the batch of tests but we dont realize it because its negative

At one time I worked for a OB-GYN and we always tested for drugs. They signed papers to allow and while some didn't read what they were signing that was on them. It was all about protecting babies. I asked the doctor if he had ever had someone not sign the paper consenting to all blood testing he required and he said no. I asked him what he would do if they did refuse and he said show them the door.

JMO

 

[cvillemegan]

Now that we've seen Ashley's dad's obit, we know where Noah's middle name comes from. It is another piece that doesn't fit...she named her son after her deceased dad, which feels very maternal and loving to me, and then became an abusive, neglectful, drug-addicted mom. Sad.

It seems like local media could go back in their own archives and find coverage of Terry White's murder, and I'm surprised they haven't. Sometimes people toss around the word "murder" even though police did not call the death a murder. I.e someone drives drunk, kills someone else and is charged with involuntary manslaughter, but the relatives of the deceased person call it a murder. Regardless, AW seems to have had a very traumatic life even before Noah's death, and I imagine we will hear more about it at some point.

 

[tamora1]

It seems like local media could go back in their own archives and find coverage of Terry White's murder, and I'm surprised they haven't. Sometimes people toss around the word "murder" even though police did not call the death a murder. I.e someone drives drunk, kills someone else and is charged with involuntary manslaughter, but the relatives of the deceased person call it a murder. Regardless, AW seems to have had a very traumatic life even before Noah's death, and I imagine we will hear more about it at some point.

I suspect local media didn't check this out because the murder of Terry White isn't in doubt, and it doesn't seem to be relevant. According to the Roanoke Times, Terry White was shot in the chest, and the shooter pled guilty to second-degree murder.

All of this is available through the Roanoke Times archives on their website; checking out the full articles requires payment, but you can see the details available through the previews.

 

[courtneyb]

You may sign papers consenting to being drug tested, however, they cannot just take a sample from you without telling you AT THAT TIME, that they are drug testing you. It's called informed consent and a person has the right to withdraw consent at anytime. That is why, if you've ever, ever been drug tested, you'd know it. They cannot collect a sample from you without informing you that what you had consented to by signing that paper in the beginning is being carried out.

Also, due to the cheap cost of urine testing vs. blood testing for drugs, almost universally a urine sample will be taken for an initial drug screen. If it's positive, a blood sample will usually be drawn to confirm and have a more accurate reading. Urine can be concentrated or watered down due to natural processes.

Every maternity appointment I had, I was told to pee in a little cup with no lid, no label and no one watching. They could have tested it for drugs and it would never have held up in court if I were positive. No one saw me pee in the cup, there is no label to distinguish it from the other 10 samples on the counter and it was not collected using semi sterile protocol.

So, one could sign all they want without reading, but you would still know if a sample was being obtained for a drug screen.


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[hmartin]

Maybe the "special" daughter was a step daughter or a kid he raised as his own?

 

[Luvrosco]

Mm

Doing a little catching up here..............

BBM:

The very action of putting their son in a septic tank is why I don't think it was an accident. It was either through neglect or overdosing, IMO. If it had been an accident, why hide the body and especially in such a horrible, horrible place? How can any parent bear to even think of their child being in such a place, much less placing their child there? Why the cover up for an accident unless it involved their illegal drugs?

I haven't commented very much because it makes me physically ill to think of where Noah was placed. I look at that precious little face and if I were to start to run to the bathroom, I'd be throwing up by the time I got there.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for either parent. No punishment is too severe as far as I'm concerned.

This entire post is just MOO.

Spot on post! You took the words out of my mouth..

 

[ANonyMs]

I suspect local media didn't check this out because the murder of Terry White isn't in doubt, and it doesn't seem to be relevant. According to the Roanoke Times, Terry White was shot in the chest, and the shooter pled guilty to second-degree murder.

All of this is available through the Roanoke Times archives on their website; checking out the full articles requires payment, but you can see the details available through the previews.

I read the archives yesterday of the Radford paper and had not gotten to the Roanoke Times yet. Thanks for saving us the time!!! I actually do think it is relevant to understanding what could have brought AW to this point. And had it been something like a family involved murder or drugs, I think it would have been even more relevant.

Edited to add: Maybe I find it relevant b/c I have a background in behavioral and social science and I often look at where people come from and their past experiences to help me understand where they are at now. Just the way my brain works (When it works...)