GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #7

[atthelake]

I think we also discussed that this was not the same as the one on Noahs property. No big deal. Noah is dead, murder can't be proven, case closed. Moving on to the next dead baby.

:doorhide:

Thankfully the other baby, Joe.... and Cheri and b'friend with <self snip> history that we were posting on thread and concerned about earlier this week @ http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?287327-FL-Cheri-Nicotri-24-Joe-Nicotri-3-Spring-Hill-2-Aug-2015 were found.

D#*gs.... and missing babies does make folks do a double take. Thankfully baby Joe was found, yet we may never know the "Paul Harvey" on that case.

 

[ANonyMs]

I think we also discussed that this was not the same as the one on Noahs property. No big deal. Noah is dead, murder can't be proven, case closed. Moving on to the next dead baby.

Um....ok? Not sure where that came from but if I have offended you in some way, I apologize. And I think Noah's case is far from over.

 

[AnnaGrace]

I think we also discussed that this was not the same as the one on Noahs property. No big deal. Noah is dead, murder can't be proven, case closed. Moving on to the next dead baby.

BBM

This is so, so heartbreaking. I just don't know if I can move on to the next one. It's just happening too much...:tears:

 

[NSS]

I should have been more clear...he did have minor scratches on his abdomen and a laceration on his mouth...so other than those...

I assume that was from falling in but it could have been from a back hand, too.

In general though, I find it hard to make that leap. I find these parents to be morally reprehensible, but there has been no other indication of physical abuse, loathing, hatred or contempt for her children. I realize that drugs could quickly change all of that, but it just feels like a pretty big leap to me.

Thanks for sharing you opinion - I was having a hard time seeing that side.

I have 2 littles here who lived in a similar household. There are ZERO social services reports or police reports that would suggest either child was physically abused. That is because the parents covered for each other. Their past includes several injuries (and excuses), broken collar bone (fell from supermarket trolley - unwitnessed) Broken arm (fell from tree - unwitnessed) Near drowning in bath of 7 month old (saved by - and blamed upon 20 month old sibling). Children were removed from mum, placed with dad and girlfriend, removed from there following domestic violence incident, I now have guardianship. No reported abuse does not equal no abuse. Drugs and alcohol alter everything - addicts feed their addiction, not the physical and emotional needs of their children.

I appreciate that we all have different realities and experiences and I accept that we won't all see this situation the same way.

Even mediocre parents don't leave their kids, drive to work, stop off at the store, come home and ignore them a little longer, disposing of this inconvenience is not that huge of a leap. Denying what addicted parents are capable of put children in danger.

 

[NSS]

Um....ok? Not sure where that came from but if I have offended you in some way, I apologize. And I think Noah's case is far from over.

I apologize, my last post sort of explains my frustration with the apparent acceptance of the parents behaviour and actions. Just a tad close to home for me. Sorry again, not your fault at all.

 

[Paulas88]

How did the lid get back on the septic tank?

 

[AnnaGrace]

How did the lid get back on the septic tank?

There's an article posted earlier, the Tewksbury case, where a lid flipped back into place when a child stepped on it and fell in. IIRC, she was rescued because someone saw it happen. All I can say is, when this happens, and if it happened in Noah's death, it's a freak and bizarre happening. I'm not sure I'm convinced that's what happened, but am trying to be open and wait for more info.

 

[gitana1]

When you think about it, the fact that they left the kids alone has probably saved AW from a murder charge. If she had have been home when he went into that tank, I am not sure she would be able to prove it wasn't intentional. Now we may never know.

I don't know. He didn't die before he went in there so unless there was evidence he was put in there alive, I think it would be hard to prove anyway. These people neglected their precious kid. But I'm glad to know they didn't intentionally murder him or hide his body.

 

[Paulas88]

IMO, AW came home after dropping PT off at work (left kids home alone) and discovered Noah in the septic tank (lid off) they new they would be charged with child neglect, soo.... the story begins, I was taking a nap, Noah was watching TV, and he just disappeared?? That's how the lid was put back on, by AW.

 

[gitana1]

There's an article posted earlier, the Tewksbury case, where a lid flipped back into place when a child stepped on it and fell in. IIRC, she was rescued because someone saw it happen. All I can say is, when this happens, and if it happened in Noah's death, it's a freak and bizarre happening. I'm not sure I'm convinced that's what happened, but am trying to be open and wait for more info.

I guess it happens though:

"The plastic can get easily damaged when hit with a lawn mower, cracked in the cold, retaining screws strip out and the UV light (and sewer gas) can make them brittle. Now what is happening is children are stepping on them and because the cover is round, it flips on its axis, the child falls in and the cover slams back in place. There have been 4 incidents of this occurring in the last year alone and as more of these risers are installed, age and get damaged the number is going to go up dramatically in the coming years." http://www.septicprotector.com/deathpage.html

 

[Steleheart]

http://www.roanoke.com/noah-thomas-...cle_ef8530da-abe1-5e92-b0a7-4a062f43ad94.html
<snipped> BBM;
"The evidence presented in the case so far leaves open the possibility that Noah somehow got into the septic tank himself. An investigator testified Wednesday that the lid to the tank wasn’t heavy.
After several hours of testimony Wednesday, White’s attorney — public defender Kelsey Bulger — made a motion to dismiss the felony homicide charge, saying that the prosecution hasn’t presented enough evidence to prove Noah’s death was directly a result of the neglect that would be needed to convict.
According to Virginia code, felony homicide is the “killing of one accidentally, contrary to the intentions while in the prosecution of some felonious act.”

Since MOD is undetermined, i.e.; we do not know if Noah climbed in, fell in or was placed in the septic tank, the PD made a successful motion to drop the felony murder charge. "Killing" is an act - "I was smoking crack and fell on him and accidently stabbed him with my screwdriver".
Whereas "I was asleep and he took off the cover and fell in" is not "Killing". Sure it's neglect.
I am unsure if dropping the charge of homicide means that it cannot be brought again since we do not know if it was dismissed with or without prejudice. But if MOD cannot be determined there will not be probable cause even for a GJ indictment, IMO.

Since the toxicology was negative for substances in his system, I am off the train for her drugging him. Possibly even for knowing he was in there at all but we really, in all truthfulness do not know that. The scratches on his abdomen could indicate that he was leaning over the opening and fell or even that he struggled and fought against being put there.

Without MOD there is no evidence BARD that can be brought against her. Unless the investigation is ongoing then no other charges will be brought.
I will say that if things are the way they appear, then the spotty releasing of info by LE has been grossly unfair to this mother even though she was a neglectful parent.

I still have my doubts because of the, as yet, unknown condition of Baby A, but I do know that social workers can exaggerate the condition of a child and turn a simple head cold into a major malady when there is an investigation.

I cannot imagine the guilt these parents will suffer if this was truly an accident, but sorry, leaving them unattended and alone is irresponsible and neglectful, regardless.

MOO

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

I think we also discussed that this was not the same as the one on Noahs property. No big deal. Noah is dead, murder can't be proven, case closed. Moving on to the next dead baby.

I just came by to say that during the course of Noah's missing and the investigation that followed, I made some great friends here. I knew yesterday when the articles started being pulled again and the objective discussion began, that I needed to move on because there is no way that I (me personally) can be objective about this case. Maybe I just choose not to be objective about it. I feel this little boy was failed miserably by everyone. NSS - I feel just like you...case closed...the defense attorney earned his money and the precious victim Noah lays cold in his tiny little grave. If anyone wants to revisit some things, please take a minute and look at the videos that were made in his honor.

 

[atthelake]

I just came by to say that during the course of Noah's missing and the investigation that followed, I made some great friends here. I knew yesterday when the articles started being pulled again and the objective discussion began, that I needed to move on because there is no way that I (me personally) can be objective about this case. Maybe I just choose not to be objective about it. I feel this little boy was failed miserably by everyone. NSS - I feel just like you...case closed...the defense attorney earned his money and the precious victim Noah lays cold in his tiny little grave. If anyone wants to revisit some things, please take a minute and look at the videos that were made in his honor.

:grouphug:

:crying:

:thinking: After 4 years wolfmom and Tulessa still light a candle four times a day for Caylee...and many :websleuther: thank every day ... Not forgotten

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11997510

:rose: for both

 

[wgram]

Also during the hearing, a felony homicide charge was dropped against Noah's mother, Ashley White.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_ef8530da-abe1-5e92-b0a7-4a062f43ad94.html

Does this mean she's about to be charged instead with murder?

We can hope I guess... sadly I doubt it.

 

[Dogface]

I had taken a step away from this case because I felt to emotional and unbending with some of my views on her story about the nap from the get go. I still haven't wavered on my thoughts about her "nap" and other things, but, I'm trying to convince myself that he was loved, albeit by junkies who had no business having kids or being in charge of their own kids care, and that this was a horrible horrible accident. But I'm not sure my brain is buying what my heart is trying to sell it.

 

[AnnaGrace]

You know what? I've been debating whether or not to say this, but wth, I'm gonna say it. I don't think LE believes in AW's innocence and I don't either. Things just aren't right and somebody's lying. That is all.

 

[Paulas88]

Man oh man, if you compare the picture of AW and PT's photos from court yesterday
to the shots taken when they first got arrested... WOW, <modsnip>. They both have put on a lot of weight.

 

[mpnola]

You know what? I've been debating whether or not to say this, but wth, I'm gonna say it. I don't think LE believes in AW's innocence and I don't either. Things just aren't right and somebody's lying. That is all.

Yeah, that. The baby was removed almost immediately due to being very sick and was untreated. The baby was also born addicted to drugs. Mom basically refused to look for Noah because, in my opinion, she knew right where he was. Just because they dont have the evidence to prove it YET doesnt mean it didnt happen. I believe the police have it right and just cant fully act, yet.

I would be interested in the time of death or the stomach contents. Was his dinner there? Meaning he was in at night and her morning story was BS? Or was there any breakfast at all? If he was up watching cartoons, certainly some breakfast would be given before going to take a nap, right? I still think this is FAR from over. There are many ways to determine something without actually seeing something.

And as for the lid, I do not believe that it flipped and I do not believe anyone else put it on and doesnt want to admit it. People do not let parents go to jail for murder when a child had an accident. People would come forward and say "When we were looking for him this morning, the lid was off, I looked in and I put the lid back on to make sure no accident occurred there." I definitely do not think someone would replace it and then stay silent as innocent parents are being arrested for murder. The lid has been a BIG topic for us, so it certainly has been in interviewing witnesses, as well.

My heart hurts for him and his really disgusting and scary last moments. Sleep in peace, Noah Baby! Your smile can light up a room!

 

[courtneyb]

Kshultz, lol! I will put my pitchfork in the shed, but I'm not quite ready to give it away yet. [emoji57]

I can't go back to the septic tank lid debate... Just can't. I believe what I was told about the lid and the yard over it and I just don't think such a violent accidental fall resulting allegedly in the lacerations described into the tank would result in the lid falling perfectly back into place.

I also believe, AnnaGrace, that LE knows she is more directly involved but thy are missing a piece, or something. I don't think this is over. I didn't yesterday and the rumblings I've heard today support that, at least in part. I am hoping this is not just a monumentally screwed up incompetent handling of evidence, investigating, and legal maneuvering.

They SMILED when they came out of court yesterday. I cannot fathom any reasons I like why.


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[Paulas88]

Kshultz, lol! I will put my pitchfork in the shed, but I'm not quite ready to give it away yet. [emoji57]

I can't go back to the septic tank lid debate... Just can't. I believe what I was told about the lid and the yard over it and I just don't think such a violent accidental fall resulting allegedly in the lacerations described into the tank would result in the lid falling perfectly back into place.

I also believe, AnnaGrace, that LE knows she is more directly involved but thy are missing a piece, or something. I don't think this is over. I didn't yesterday and the rumblings I've heard today support that, at least in part. I am hoping this is not just a monumentally screwed up incompetent handling of evidence, investigating, and legal maneuvering.

They SMILED when they came out of court yesterday. I cannot fathom any reasons I like why.


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I stated this earlier... I think bc of neglect (parents left kids alone <modsnip>) Noah fell into the tank, parents knew they would go to prison, so they put the lid back on! Then called the police with the missing child BS.

Their smiles in court yesterday really disgusted me too.