GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #7

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CatsInTheCradle said:
I just said the same thing :(
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There are a lot of people in the area (not me) that are waiting on them to be released. I think if they do get out they will have to relocate. It would be hard for them to live freely here now. JS
 
NSS said:
Seems that reasonable doubt is no longer the threshold for juries. Judges want proof positive before even charging. What a sad world. I wish there were something that US citizens could do to give children a value beyond possessions of their parents.

I bet the baby will get returned after she does her online parenting class in jail.
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I think the Pros would have a hard time because the LE Officer testified in the Hearing that he checked the tank with a pole on March 22. Noah wasn't found until March 26th in the same tank. A good Defense lawyer could do a lot of arguing on that. JMHO
 
NSS said:
Seems that reasonable doubt is no longer the threshold for juries. Judges want proof positive before even charging. What a sad world. I wish there were something that US citizens could do to give children a value beyond possessions of their parents.

I bet the baby will get returned after she does her online parenting class in jail.
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I agree, you are probably right. In one article at the beginning of this case she stated that they had children so that her mother could have grandchildren before she died (cancer I think). Didn't say they wanted children. Her mother passed and so the need was no longer there? IDK They just make me sick.
 
wgram said:
There are a lot of people in the area (not me) that are waiting on them to be released. I think if they do get out they will have to relocate. It would be hard for them to live freely here now. JS
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Notice they had on bullet proof vests?
 
arkansasmimi said:
Notice they had on bullet proof vests?
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yeah I did. There's a good reason I would say. A lot of community members there and in the surrounding areas are really upset and angry. I couldn't begin to tell you how many volunteers and professional searchers were out every day looking for him.
 
NSS said:
Seems that reasonable doubt is no longer the threshold for juries. Judges want proof positive before even charging. What a sad world. I wish there were something that US citizens could do to give children a value beyond possessions of their parents.

I bet the baby will get returned after she does her online parenting class in jail.
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I was thinking the same thing about her getting the baby back. Poor little girl.
 
arkansasmimi said:
Wasn't it a while before LEO arrived? Also the pole was iirc beside the tank. Having 2 homes on the same septic tank could have caused problems that were looked at routinely. We don't know if the lid was on prior to searching or not. IIRC all we do know is that it wasn't bolted down. Someone could have seen lid ajar, looked in and saw nothing and put it back on. For a Pros to charge someone they have to be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt of that charge.

From my quick read, it appears this is the first hearing since they charged her with the murder? With out Manner of Death, I don't understand how they charged her with murder to begin with. JMHO
I need to go back and refresh.
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NSS said:
Seems that reasonable doubt is no longer the threshold for juries. Judges want proof positive before even charging. What a sad world. I wish there were something that US citizens could do to give children a value beyond possessions of their parents.

I bet the baby will get returned after she does her online parenting class in jail.
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BBM

I'm serving on a grand jury at the moment and, to bring charges against someone, our "threshold" is probable cause (is it probable that this person did what is being charged?). Much less than beyond a reasonable doubt.

FWIW
 
MsMarple said:
From your link:

Paul Thomas and Ashley White both cried in court when investigators talked about how the boy's body was discovered and removed from the septic tank. There was septic tank sludge in his throat and lungs, the medical examiner testified.

Noah Thomas was found with a cell phone, toy, used condom, and a toothpaste tube cap.

Ugh. I'm surprised no manner of death has been released yet. If the judge dropped the felony homicide charge I'd assume MOD would be declared accidental.
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This article states that MOD could not be determined at this time b/c the ME does not know how we came to be in the tank.

http://www.roanoke.com/noah-thomas-...cle_ef8530da-abe1-5e92-b0a7-4a062f43ad94.html
 
Wow I just spent some time googling "septic tank deaths" and apparently this is something that happens way more than I ever realized.
 
So, I guess I will play the contrarian here tonight.

First, if you have not had a chance, I found *both* of the Roanoke Times article to be really informative.

http://www.roanoke.com/noah-thomas-...cle_ef8530da-abe1-5e92-b0a7-4a062f43ad94.html

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_ef8530da-abe1-5e92-b0a7-4a062f43ad94.html

I was going to do my usual superlong multi quote catch up response but I have spotty internet right now due to road work in our neighborhood (Tonight of all nights!!!! Don't they know I need to be on WS tonight?!) So please forgive this unfocused response.

MOD was left as undetermined b/c the ME does not know how he ended up in the tank.

I was one who said for a loooong time that he could have fallen in. I changed my tune as time went on, especially in light of AW & PT's drug activity, leaving the kids alone, and other persons known to Noah having nefarious backgrounds.

I am back to not being so sure. The lid was easily removed - per testimony in court today. Noah was found with some scratches on his stomach and a laceration near his mouth (per the ME)...which I think sounds about right for a kid falling over, bashing his mouth on the edge of the tank and scraping his tummy along something as he fell in.

Then again, I would bet a significant percentage of 5 year old boys have those same scratches and wounds on any given day. Boys will be boys.

There was no other evidence of trauma - he wasn't beaten.

There was no evidence in toxicology of drugs in his system. He was not out cold from opiates and mistaken for dead. He had nothing in his system. He was not drugged by mommy to get him to sleep. He did not sneak and get in to mommy's stash when he was left home alone. He did not have opiates in his system.

The felony murder charge was dropped *because the prosecution failed to present sufficient evidence to move forward. The judge ruled that the criminal act of leaving the kids home alone was not sufficiently connected to Noah's death.*

So, it's one of two possibilities. Either AW & PT have some pretty bad luck in life (dead parents, dead best friend, then their kid accidentally dies and they get blamed for it) OR the Prosecution is lacking some key piece of evidence connecting the time AW took PT to work and Noah's death.

Either way - it sucks. It sucks that this innocent child met an untimely demise b/c his parents (whether they are criminally responsible or not) failed him.

I would love for our one our our legal eagles to check in on this, but I am pretty sure they could still bring additional charges against her *if and when they have the evidence to do so.*

It sucks b/c I feel in my heart that they have more culpability in this than their current charges however, I also believe our justice system is designed to work the way it does for a reason. WE DON'T KNOW. None of us here are really privy to anything. It's all speculation and heartbreak.

Wouldn't it be better to drop the charges now and preserve the option to bring them later than to have her found Not Guilty?
 
ANonyMs said:
This article states that MOD could not be determined at this time b/c the ME does not know how we came to be in the tank.

http://www.roanoke.com/noah-thomas-...cle_ef8530da-abe1-5e92-b0a7-4a062f43ad94.html
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After I posted I found this:

Tracie Cooper, business manager at the office [of the medical examiner] in Roanoke, said Wednesday an autopsy determined that hypothermia also contributed to the March 26 death of Noah Thomas. She said the manner of death is officially listed as "undetermined."

http://www.wvnstv.com/story/29773323/medical-examiner-virginia-boy-found-in-septic-tank-drowned

And thank you for the link - it's got much more info on why the judge reduced the charges, and loads more.

ETA: I see you've posted more since I responded - I'm soooo slow at typing.
 
Sheoftensaid said:
Wow I just spent some time googling "septic tank deaths" and apparently this is something that happens way more than I ever realized.
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Some of the WS'ers here could almost speak on this professionally by this point! We had A LOT of Septic Tank Death discussion in some of the other threads. Gruesome and sad, huh?
 
Sorry, MsMarple!!! I was drafting that big long crazy post for awhile and then the husband walked in the door, etc. Yeah, I am a little disappointed in the MSM coverage on the testimony today and charge being dropped. It is a LOT of information to digest.
 
MamaJoJo said:
BBM

I'm serving on a grand jury at the moment and, to bring charges against someone, our "threshold" is probable cause (is it probable that this person did what is being charged?). Much less than beyond a reasonable doubt.

FWIW
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I sorry if I was not clear on my thoughts. The Pros has to be able to prove at trial any charges filed against the Defendant.

The Grand Jury works with the Pros whether to bring charges against a suspect in a crime.
http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-law-basics/difference-between-grand-jury-and-trial-jury.html
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Once the suspect is charged,
Reasonable doubt is a standard of proof used in criminal trials. When a criminal defendant is prosecuted, the prosecutor must prove the defendant's guilt Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Reasonable+Doubt
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Having said that, from following the AJ Hadsell case also in VA... Does this mean that the Pros can/will take it to the Grand Jury and possibly refile the charges? IIRC Direct Indictment?

ETA: from ANonyMs link http://www.roanoke.com/noah-thomas-...cle_ef8530da-abe1-5e92-b0a7-4a062f43ad94.html
Pulaski County Juvenile and Domestic Relations Judge Lee Chitwood certified the four charges of child abuse and neglect to a grand jury as the result of a Wednesday hearing. A grand jury will determine if there’s enough evidence to move forward with a trial. Class 6 felonies are punishable by a minimum of two years and a maximum of five years on each charge.
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:thinking:so its possible the try a direct indictment still?
 
a used condom?

MsMarple said:
From your link:

Paul Thomas and Ashley White both cried in court when investigators talked about how the boy's body was discovered and removed from the septic tank. There was septic tank sludge in his throat and lungs, the medical examiner testified.

Noah Thomas was found with a cell phone, toy, used condom, and a toothpaste tube cap.

Ugh. I'm surprised no manner of death has been released yet. If the judge dropped the felony homicide charge I'd assume MOD would be declared accidental.
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There are times when there are no words. For me, this is one of them. My greatest fear was that he was alive when he went in that tank. God bless his precious little heart..RIP precious little boy. I'm so sorry and heartbroken for little Noah.
 
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