GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #7

[arkansasmimi]

I had wondered if someone was checking the tank to see how low/full it was and forgot to put the lid back on or didn't securely put it back on. Jmo

That's what I am wondering myself.

I am also curious, if when they went back to search the tank on March 26 if it was in the same condition (unsecured) or if it had been secured when they went back the 2nd time. Since the LEO testified he kicked it and it popped off on March 22nd.

ETA :

Investigators told WDBJ that a “hard, credible tip” caused them to look in the septic tank behind the family’s home.

The sheriff said that FBI agents and Pulaski County investigators had already removed the tank’s two-pound plastic lid when they called in a sanitation company to drain the tank. http://wtvr.com/2015/08/12/noah-thomas-murder-autopsy-parents-in-court/

 

[arkansasmimi]

March 27,2015 ~ Experts say it all comes down to what type of lid, if any, was on the tank that day. So far, all investigators will say is that the septic tank itself is underground.

But we don't know if the Thomas's tank, like many Virginia homeowners', has a plastic riser on it, which would make it accessible above ground.

A lightweight plastic lid is usually placed over the rise to cover the tank. The owner of 'Five Star Septic' tells ABC 13 the plastic lid is usually secured with more than 8 screws, which would make it impossible for anyone to uncover. But if the lid is not screwed on, he says even a child could pull the cover off. http://www.wset.com/story/28635381/...thomas-accidentally-fell-into-the-septic-tank

 

[arkansasmimi]

I wonder if they found his little Spiderman rain boots

March 22, 2015 Noah, who was last seen wearing a camo jacket, black and yellow pants and Spiderman rain boots, is described as four feet tall with red hair and green eyes. http://wtvr.com/2015/03/22/noah-thomas-missing-child-pulaski-county/

POSTED: 10:49 PM EDT Aug 12, 2015 UPDATED: 04:18 AM EDT Aug 13, 2015 An assistant medical examiner said Noah died from drowning and hypothermia.

She received his body with an action figure, a used condom, and a toothpaste tube cap.

He was found wearing a camouflage winter jacket, an athletic shirt, and sweatpants, according to an investigator.

During the medical examiner's autopsy she found a cell phone. http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/mor...homas-death-pulaski-community-reacts/34685338

 

[arkansasmimi]

I had wondered if someone was checking the tank to see how low/full it was and forgot to put the lid back on or didn't securely put it back on. Jmo

Not sure if some things were deleted or not regarding this, so unsure where this info possibly came from orig. I been reading back over since we know more facts, (which I personally good when we learn something big, sometimes we see things we first saw, or maybe missed or makes something make more sense) I found this:

Passionflower : Originally Posted by passionflower View Post
maybe had screws? Since a 'clean out was scheduled'............family having sewer problems?
Did someone remove he screws to look in and then cover it, but not screwing it back up?
Did little Noah think he could help?
curious? fell in? put no one noticed a septic uncovered in the search?
I find that odd that no one would notice an open hole in the yard while looking for a child.
I am anxious to know if Noah had a coat and boots on

Lillybell I didn't know a clean scheduled? So yes, maybe the cover had been removed to check and see if work was needed?
Are these things screwed down tight normally? You would think if someone needed to remove the lid, they would remember to fasten it back up safely, especially with little ones about!
Obviously we don't know yet weather the lid was on, off or on but not secured, either way, it should have been checked ASAP. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ounty-22-March-2015-2&p=11631757#post11631757

 

[cvaldez1975]

that poor baby

Nester came across the septic tank that was located just yards from the back door of the trailer. He testified the tank had a circular green lid on it that “was not heavy at all” — similar to a trash can lid, he said. When he kicked the lid with his boot, it popped off.

Later, he returned with another Pulaski County investigator who dipped a 6-foot pole into the tank and “moved it around a little bit.”

“It didn’t hit or strike anything,” Nester testified.

The deputies proceeded to put the lid back on the tank and it went untouched for several days until a more “through and aggressive” search of the property was conducted. Noah’s body wasn’t found until March 26 when the septic tank was drained.

Dr. Amy Tharp, assistant chief medical examiner for Western Virginia, testified when her office received the body additional precautions had to be taken into account, since the body was drenched in solid and liquid hazardous waste. A hazmat team had to come in the day before and confirm that their facilities were safe to conduct the autopsy in. http://www.newsadvance.com/news/sta...cle_af6d2cd4-4769-5e0f-8c43-08b99deafc4b.html

 

[cvillemegan]

what would be the purpose in itemizing some of the things also found in the tank at the same time that Noah was found? When you have little ones, and perhaps even when there are no little ones, things can get flushed or sucked down a drain, on purpose or accidentally.. a used condom? Why not list used toilet paper too then? A toothpaste cap?

I was wondering the same thing. Does this indicate the toothpaste cap and used condom were actually in his pocket? Or maybe they were somehow stuck to him when the body was fished out, but other items, like toilet paper, weren't? Or they just didn't list TP because that was considered part of the "liquid and solid waste"?

I can't imagine how hard it must have been to handle the body and do the autopsy.

 

[arkansasmimi]

I remember seeing a reporter on a video, saying she didn't see a lid, only sod.
Yet the LEO that testified said he kicked the lid and it popped off. Nothing has been mentioned about the LEO digging the first time. :thinking:

Quote Originally Posted by Meemaw12 View Post
@KSuri: I walked the property today before being asked to leave. I looked in area where septic is: Did not see a plastic lid. But a big sod patch.

@KSuri: @mom2jakey @elenda100 @ABC13News I'm certain they looked. Even if it was covered it could've been an accident. We don't know all the facts.

@KSuri: Cause of death is in, for #NoahThomas but Pulaski County Sheriff Office says unlikely to release results until "Monday at the earliest"

@KSuri: Multiple sources say yes the lid was on. From my vantage point it appears the lid was under a thick layer of sod/grass. Sheriff Davis N/Cmt

@KSuri: Source tells me live air scent dogs were brought in right away but trail went cold at property lines. Cadaver dogs can smell bodies 15 ft dp

@KSuri: @calei101 in my experience there is a specific reason they are withholding cause of death. But again-only they know why. I can't speculate.

@KSuri: @Bella_rosa11 @ABC13News you'll know when I can officially report. I can't report the rumors or "inside gossip" but there is a reason.

@KSuri: Investigators searched yard "many, many times before finding Noah" http://t.co/xNW97iBDOG

Wendybtn So, the septic tank lid was not visible to the naked eye or someone walking, searching the property? I would think if anything could throw an SAR dog off the path, a tank filled with waste would do it, especially if a body was carried to it and did not walk.http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ounty-22-March-2015-2&p=11635388#post11635388

ETA: which is another reason I am curious if they had recently had maintenance done. JMHO

courtneyb Angel and mark said the septic tank cover was not normally visible; it was under a layer of dirt and grass. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ounty-22-March-2015-2&p=11635459#post11635459

 

[arkansasmimi]

I feel better now that I remembered correct about only 1 septic for the 2 homes.

Meemaw12 Can you ask him if it's the lid to the house septic tank or the lid to the mobile home septic tank in the pic you provided? Or was there only one septic tank for both the house and mobile home?

The one video I posted with the blue tarp, red building on wheels and tan shed appears to be closer to the house than the mobile home.

I am trying to figure out distance from the door of mobile home to septic tank that is used for the mobile home.

I appreciate the pictures you provided and thank you very much for your help.

One reporter said the tank was behind Noah's home and that clearly is not true from the pics we see...

Ugg such a tragedy I need to walk away. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ounty-22-March-2015-2&p=11635467#post11635467

courtneyb Angel said there was only one septic tank for their house and Noah's. It was between their houses, actually on the Thomas's property, but that it is not as close to their front door as it looks in the pictures.... She said the angles of some of the pics are a little "funky"... Makes the perspective seen a little off. This pic she saw on the news.. Said that that is her fire pit that they left when they moved. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ounty-22-March-2015-2&p=11635484#post11635484

 

[arkansasmimi]

Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
I had wondered if someone was checking the tank to see how low/full it was and forgot to put the lid back on or didn't securely put it back on. Jmo

That's what I am wondering myself.

I am also curious, if when they went back to search the tank on March 26 if it was in the same condition (unsecured) or if it had been secured when they went back the 2nd time. Since the LEO testified he kicked it and it popped off on March 22nd.

ETA :

ETA :Awww look what I just came across

Sparky 3/28 When a septic tank needs to be cleaned out, it's usually noticeable by the waste backing up in the toliets, sinks and/or shower/tubs.

Maybe one of the tenants complained they were having issues like the above.

I believe it's highly possible someone may have checked the septic to see how full it was, forgot to replace the lid and sod, or walked away for a few moments/or few hours and remembered, went back put the lid on bolted it down and replaced the sod not knowing Noah had fallen in.

As for the tip being called in, I don't believe it was for the reward money. It could have been because someone got so busy with other things in life, chores/work it didn't dawn on them until a few days later they'd removed the lid to the septic and replaced it. It could be they were so distraught over what may have happened, this was the reason for calling the tip line. Just a freak accident. All JMO.

It's not my place to judge the parents, so I'll just sit on the fence.

RIP Noah. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ounty-22-March-2015-2&p=11635795#post11635795

 

[arkansasmimi]

This is what I was thinking the other day. JMHO, could have been a lot of confusion and its possible that's the tip to search again? LEO kicking lid doesn't sound to me it was covered, at least on March 22.

3/28 Kaen I think LE needs time to develop the case if this was not an accident. The freeze out of information allows them to not have to deal with media and tips (that might take time and limited financial resources) that are exploiting the information out there. This also allows them to really get a bead on this family if they are thinking the parents are responsible. Before they found Noah it was hard to go at the family. I am sure LE wants to get as much as they can before anyone lawyers up.

If this was a negligence issue of an unsecured tank, there are legal ramifications as well for the owner of the property or the person who left the tank unsecured. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ounty-22-March-2015-2&p=11635869#post11635869

 

[ANonyMs]

They had all the information on June 10th as they did at the hearing, and I think they thought it would stick. I wonder if they have any working theories but just don't have enough evidence to act on them.

That's what I think.

Let's look at the goat rope those 4 days were, and then the days leading up to his funeral. I think one of the few things most of us can agree on was that, on it's face, the investigation and the dynamic between LE and AW/PT was unusual (to say the least). I would be willing to bet that LE either knows exactly what happened or have some very specific theories but whatever that knowledge is based on is inadmissible. I think they hoped that with two months to get their ducks in a row, they could string some solid evidence together and it just didn't happen.

 

[ANonyMs]

arkansasmimi, I am loving this older stuff you are bringing back up. Great stuff to get the brain stirred a bit and try to make sense of the what is seemingly senseless.

 

[arkansasmimi]

arkansasmimi, I am loving this older stuff you are bringing back up. Great stuff to get the brain stirred a bit and try to make sense of the what is seemingly senseless.

Funny on so many cases how spot on many are at the very beginning... Thread 2 starting at abt pg 30 got very interesting to me.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Sounds like not good communication, curious what agency the officer who testified at the hearing of looking on March 22 was from. Maybe just over looked that...

DeeMarie 3/29 here is the video-

The Pulaski county Sheriff was asked: Did anyone searched inside that septic tank before Friday.

Pulaski county Sheriff response: That information was not conveyed to me and is part of the current investigation.

http://www.wdbj7.com/video/police-sa...homas/32053506

 

[arkansasmimi]

DeeMariehere is the video-

The Pulaski county Sheriff was asked: Did anyone searched inside that septic tank before Friday.

Pulaski county Sheriff response: That information was not conveyed to me and is part of the current investigation.

http://www.wdbj7.com/video/police-sa...homas/32053506

Steleheart
But nothing I have seen says that the tank was searched twice. In this video he only says he doesn't have that information.

From the previous link; http://www.wset.com/clip/11286692/in...-noah-was-fond

Suri Crowe reports;
"as to whether there was a lid or not on that septic system, I was on the property today before being asked to leave and I saw a big square patch of sod or grass over the area where that appears to be the septic system. whether it was there or not on Sunday when Noah reportedly disappeared, investigators absolutely will not reveal any of those details."

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

LE won't clarify if the lid was on or off, covered or uncovered, bolted or not, disturbed in any way or even looked inside previously. For me it is still the tipping point between deliberate and accidental.

I can still see a scenario (IF the lid was uncovered and loose, ) " You need to look inside the septic tank! My son just told me he was playing with Noah there and when Noah fell in my son got scared and put the lid back on."

Without details it's still plausible. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ounty-22-March-2015-3&p=11637851#post11637851

ETA: Interesting is the link to Suri Crowe link is now "not found" :thinking:

 

[arkansasmimi]

April 2, 2015 Noah was found dead in a septic tank on his parents’ property March 26, ending a five-day search that involved dozens of local, state and national agencies. Davis said that no tips or calls led authorities or search and rescue teams to drain the septic tank.
“As time passed, it was our belief that Noah could not have survived being lost considering the physical terrain, large search area, and weather-related elements,” Davis said. “That this point, in the search period, our search and rescue teams transitioned into a locate and recovery mode.” http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_317ae1ed-ccc2-52cc-bb94-0ebfb2e94095.html

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

arkansasmimi, I am loving this older stuff you are bringing back up. Great stuff to get the brain stirred a bit and try to make sense of the what is seemingly senseless.

Hi ANonyMs - "making sense of what is seemingly senseless". You have always been good at that and so is Arkansasmimi, among others. I just want to be angry and go running down the street screaming.

A very sweet poster just communicated with me and really made me think. She said we can't leave Noah now. Her words really struck me. While every fiber in my being wants to never know how the story ends, she is right. We have to continue on. No matter how horrible we feel about what has happened, it cannot begin to compare to how horrible little Noah's death was.

For those of you who are thinking "she sure wouldn't make a good juror", you're right. Not if it has to do with animal cruelty, abuse to the elderly or to children. I have such a soft spot for those who have no words. No defense attorney on earth would want me

Anyway, I respect and appreciate you all. As time permits, I will be tagging along.

 

[courtneyb]

Something that I remembered that I had asked a while back just came to me and is bothering me and I think it's worth noting.

Before I get to what woke me at 5 am bothering me, let me just say this:

Let's not forget that Noah was a big for his age 5 year old. The size opening that their tank was would make it all but impossible for a child his size to slip in AND have the lid do a magical flip in the air and land back on top, perfectly aligned and fitted down like a Tupperware lid. That requires downward pressure applied from above.

Ok, this is what I want input on:

His arms would have had to have been above his head for him to slide in easily. AND, the autopsy reports made no mention of any abrasions on the undersides of his arms from catching on the lid opening. In an accidental fall, one reflexively reaches out his arms to try to stop the fall by catching something. You've all seen this reflex even in a newborn baby. You unswaddle and undress baby, set him on the bed, away from the safety/comfort of your body, and they startle, and very rapidly fling out their arms because they feel as though they are falling. This applies if he entered feet first in an unexpected accidental fall. His arms would either have to be straight down by his side or straight above his head to avoid these abrasions. Going against all reflexive, instinctive movements to try to stop the fall.

Now, if he entered headfirst accidentally, it probably would be from looking down into the tank, for something he dropped, or out of curiosity.

Now think about your body positioning if you were looking into the tank. Where would your arms be? On the edge of the opening, bracing yourself to keep from falling in, right? If you lost your balance at this point and fell in, you'd reflexively try to regain your balance and bracing with your arms, almost certainly leaving abrasions. He would have almost have had his arms in a diver's pose above his head to avoid these abrasions. Again, going against reflex.

The laceration on his lip and his tummy fit more with him being forced into the tank while fighting and with his arms being restrained.

I loathed typing that.


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[courtneyb]

I've been told that this is the same type of setup/opening that was on the property. If I was told wrong, please let me know.

As much as I am weary of the septic lid debate and magic resealing lid, the absence of any abrasions on his arms compelled me to take another look. Catsinacradle is right. I can't leave Noah either.


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[courtneyb]

Even in the puffy coat, one could expect damage to the fabric and at the least, bruising or other soft tissue damage to the sensitive underside of the arms.


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