GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #7

[Sparky]

Please don't copy and paste from Social Media.


:tyou:

 

[Steleheart]

ETA: Interesting is the link to Suri Crowe link is now "not found" :thinking:

Interesting also that Orlando Salinas lost his job soon after this video?
http://www.wdbj7.com/video/police-s...ook-into-septic-tank-for-noah-thomas/32053506

or "parted ways"
http://www.roanoke.com/arts_and_ent...cle_544d0aea-f8dd-5938-b030-21d9c5093fbf.html

 

[gitana1]

gitana1, do you know if the felony murder charge can just be dropped or must it be dismissed with or without prejudice by the judge. And would that mean that it can or cannot be brought again?

TIA.

To my knowledge, either can happen. But here it appears the judge dismissed the charge. Typically that's not done with prejudice in case new evidence comes out.

 

[gitana1]

BBM

Thanks Gitana. According to these two reports, Ashley White was charged with felony murder on June 10 and the autopsy was finalized on June 3rd.

http://wtvr.com/2015/06/10/noah-thomas-mother-charged-with-5-year-olds-murder/

"Authorities have not disclosed the cause of the child’s death, although Tharp signed a final autopsy report June 3."

http://www.roanoke.com/news/noah-th...cle_e899eb30-75de-5612-940a-89b4d7c1fd82.html

My main question is why was Ashley charged with felony murder instead of negligent homicide? Why did LE think it was murder (even though they said it was an accident) instead of negligent homicide (accident occurring during neglect that led to Noah's death)? What are your thoughts on that? Also, why were Ashley's neglect charges more severe from the beginning than Paul's? If it was due to neglect of leaving the children home alone, wouldn't he be just as guilty? Yet, he was never charged with murder or homicide? What are your thoughts on this?

As far your other questions, I'll have to think on those, so as not to base it on my high running opinions right now. I shouldn't have said 'lying', but instead, withholding details that lead to Noah's death. I can say that I'm basing most of my opinions on LE's actions, which creates reasonable doubt in my mind about Ashley's innocence. I'll answer this too, that I don't think abuse of a corpse, since little Noah drowned in that horrible **** pit. Heartbreakingly, he was alive when he went in. Since the tox report was negative, we now know that he wasn't drugged before ending up there, which I was really clinging to, because it was so much better to be able to believe he wasn't conscious in there. I also don't think it was straight out murder. I really just desperately want to know how and why? So many questions are unanswered and where are we now? I don't think the case is over and there's more to come. There's got to be.

Ashley White was charged on June 10th with felony murder. They already had the autopsy report at that point, iirc.

I just don't see how they thought they had evidence to charge her at that point, but now the judge says no. So do we chalk that up to ineptitude on the part of the DA?

They had all the information on June 10th as they did at the hearing, and I think they thought it would stick. I wonder if they have any working theories but just don't have enough evidence to act on them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmmm. So I'm not sure what caused them to charge the mother with felony child abuse AFTER the autopsy. That's surprising. I don't know the answers to any of the other questions. What does the criminal complaint say? I wouldn't call it ineptitude on the part of the state. They simply had a theory that the court didn't feel there was enough probable cause to sustain.

Do we know what was presented at the hearing? What evidence?

I also think that the behaviors of suspects can be so agregious that it prompts the state to charge them more strongly than had they not acted a certain way. It's based on social norms and strong emotion. Courts are used sometimes to temper that.

 

[wgram]

Interesting also that Orlando Salinas lost his job soon after this video?
http://www.wdbj7.com/video/police-s...ook-into-septic-tank-for-noah-thomas/32053506

or "parted ways"
http://www.roanoke.com/arts_and_ent...cle_544d0aea-f8dd-5938-b030-21d9c5093fbf.html

That is my thoughts too. It was after he had that one interview concerning Noah

 

[wgram]

April 2, 2015 Noah was found dead in a septic tank on his parents’ property March 26, ending a five-day search that involved dozens of local, state and national agencies. Davis said that no tips or calls led authorities or search and rescue teams to drain the septic tank.
“As time passed, it was our belief that Noah could not have survived being lost considering the physical terrain, large search area, and weather-related elements,” Davis said. “That this point, in the search period, our search and rescue teams transitioned into a locate and recovery mode.” http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_317ae1ed-ccc2-52cc-bb94-0ebfb2e94095.html

That's what LE said.. but a reporter broke more detailed info that says they did and the person felt something, got an LEO and they checked and said no nothing there. I think he was there all along

 

[ANonyMs]

Sounds like not good communication, curious what agency the officer who testified at the hearing of looking on March 22 was from. Maybe just over looked that...

The Pulaski county Sheriff was asked: Did anyone searched inside that septic tank before Friday.

Pulaski county Sheriff response: That information was not conveyed to me and is part of the current investigation.

http://www.wdbj7.com/video/police-sa...homas/32053506

That quote never sat well with me. It is so highly constructed to say nothing of value. It does not say, "yes" or "no". It does not say, "I don't know." It says, "Could be yes, could be no, but IF it was told to me in such a way that we can not use it any official way and we aren't going to give you anything more than that." Excellent for limiting liability. Plausible deniability, etc.

 

[ANonyMs]

Hi ANonyMs - "making sense of what is seemingly senseless". You have always been good at that and so is Arkansasmimi, among others. I just want to be angry and go running down the street screaming.

A very sweet poster just communicated with me and really made me think. She said we can't leave Noah now. Her words really struck me. While every fiber in my being wants to never know how the story ends, she is right. We have to continue on. No matter how horrible we feel about what has happened, it cannot begin to compare to how horrible little Noah's death was.

For those of you who are thinking "she sure wouldn't make a good juror", you're right. Not if it has to do with animal cruelty, abuse to the elderly or to children. I have such a soft spot for those who have no words. No defense attorney on earth would want me

Anyway, I respect and appreciate you all. As time permits, I will be tagging along.

I am glad someone here reached out you. I tried to message you the other night after your other post and the site was glitchy or my connection was. I, too, hope you will continue to check in here and follow along.

And I think compassionate people make excellent jurors. (Not speaking to this case specifically) but sometimes defendants need compassion, too.

 

[Steleheart]

That's what LE said.. but a reporter broke more detailed info that says they did and the person felt something, got an LEO and they checked and said no nothing there. I think he was there all along

It was Orlando Salinas who broke the story about a hard credible tip.

Still hinky to me that he lost his job after that and Suri Crowe scrubbed all her tweets regarding the lid.

I know it regards social media but at the time he was a bonafide MSM reporter and she still is, so their SM from the time is allowed IMO.


MOO

 

[kshultz06082]

I've been told that this is the same type of setup/opening that was on the property. If I was told wrong, please let me know.

As much as I am weary of the septic lid debate and magic resealing lid, the absence of any abrasions on his arms compelled me to take another look. Catsinacradle is right. I can't leave Noah either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Me neither... i am so conflicted but I just cant let this little guy go.

 

[wgram]

It was Orlando Salinas who broke the story about a hard credible tip.

Still hinky to me that he lost his job after that and Suri Crowe scrubbed all her tweets regarding the lid.

I know it regards social media but at the time he was a bonafide MSM reporter and she still is, so their SM from the time is allowed IMO.


MOO

Yes it was Orly. I had copied and posted sections of his report to point that fact out. **My bad** Orly in my opinion was only doing his job and I hate that he was let go after that. I thought then and I still think it is something fishy going on with this case. Even the fact that Ashley and he were not strangers. I have asked Orly on More TV truth is he has an update for us but he isn't posting anything on his page.. kind of concerning. I can't help but wonder if he is avoiding the case but that is not his style.

 

[wgram]

Me neither... i am so conflicted but I just cant let this little guy go.

I tried to do a google map of the place to see if I could see anything that looked like the tank access. But I couldn't get close enough to tell.

 

[wgram]

That quote never sat well with me. It is so highly constructed to say nothing of value. It does not say, "yes" or "no". It does not say, "I don't know." It says, "Could be yes, could be no, but IF it was told to me in such a way that we can not use it any official way and we aren't going to give you anything more than that." Excellent for limiting liability. Plausible deniability, etc.

Yes they were very vague that is for sure.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Whoa.... So 1) was the pole used 4 foot or was it 6 foot? 2) So, Pulaski County Cpl. Lucas Nester, one of the first to arrive, conducted a brief search inside the home and in the backyard. HE is who kicked the lid and it popped off... that article say LATER he returned with another officer who dipped (a rod into the tank... which length 4 or 6 ft?) So that is probably where the 2 times tank searched that day that was spoken by many locals early on. The Cpl kicked lid off, then the came back with another officer. Wonder how long it was from time Cpl Nester removed the lid til he returned with other officer? To me that says wasn't under sod or bolted down, upon his arrival. And I also curious why what other Investigators testified about wasn't reported on? Would this Cpl work for the same agency as the Sheriff? Hmmm back too the old articles I go. No wonder why there is no straight answers about the lid...

Investigators testified that they searched the property and even checked the septic tank, one deputy telling the court he "kicked the lid off" the tank and that it easily "popped off," in his search of the property.

Investigators also testified poking a four foot metal rod into the tank late in the day on March 22nd.

But they didn't detect a body in the tank, which they said was "filled almost all the way to the top" with liquefied sewage. http://www.wset.com/story/29768318/update-cause-parents-of-noah-thomas-in-court-wednesday

During the hearing, the prosecution called several investigators and deputies with the Pulaski County Sheriff’s Office.

Pulaski County Cpl. Lucas Nester was one of the first to arrive at the residence on Highland Road when White reported Noah missing. Upon arrival, he said he conducted a brief search of the single-wide trailer and continued out into the backyard.

Nester came across the septic tank that was located just yards from the back door of the trailer. He testified the tank had a circular green lid on it that “was not heavy at all” — similar to a trash can lid, he said. When he kicked the lid with his boot, it popped off.

Later, he returned with another Pulaski County investigator who dipped a 6-foot pole into the tank and “moved it around a little bit.”

“It didn’t hit or strike anything,” Nester testified.

The deputies proceeded to put the lid back on the tank and it went untouched for several days until a more “through and aggressive” search of the property was conducted. Noah’s body wasn’t found until March 26 when the septic tank was drained. http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_ef8530da-abe1-5e92-b0a7-4a062f43ad94.html

 

[arkansasmimi]

Posted: Thursday, May 21, 2015 5:30 pm

Pulaski County Commonwealth’s Attorney Mike Fleenor also confirmed that a final autopsy report is still not available. That report includes a key piece of evidence — the toxicology results.
Roanoke Commonwealth’s Attorney Donald Caldwell, who is not involved with this investigation, said that in complex cases like the one involving Noah Thomas, law enforcement and prosecutors “have to be sure that they have the evidence that they believe could convince a judge or a jury beyond a reasonable doubt” before pressing additional charges.

“The whole forensic process takes time. We have very limited resources in the state and there is a great demand put on those limited resources,” Caldwell said. “We are talking months. Especially if there’s any kind of DNA analysis — that’s going to take months.”

Ultimately, the lack of information released also reflects the need for prosecutors and law enforcement to protect a potential case from pretrial publicity, Caldwell said.
Currently, White and Thomas have a joint preliminary hearing scheduled on Aug. 19 in Pulaski Juvenile and Domestic Relations District Court.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_620aea80-7c16-5891-8136-d97a3b3d12f5.html

*this was prior to the murder charge being added to AW, so I thinking that is why they had the Prelim hearing Aug 12 instead of 19th due to time frame issues?

** We know they don't share all their evidence at these prelim hearings (with public anyways) and lack of reporting of very much it seems by the reporters... I curious on any DNA

Until case is certified in Circuit we cant see any thing. Because of it being children, may not be able to the on the infant. <JMHO

April 2, 2015The case will initially be heard in the county&#8217;s Juvenile and Domestic Relations court, where a judge will determine whether or not there is probable cause to certify the felony warrants to a grand jury.
From there, the case could be heard in Circuit Court.http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_317ae1ed-ccc2-52cc-bb94-0ebfb2e94095.html

 

[arkansasmimi]

I remember it being talked about but, did anyone ever say why their offense dates are different?

Ashley White
Incarceration Information
Commitment Date: 04/02/2015

Bond Information
Case #: Amount: $0.00 Status: Dismissed Posted By: MAGISTRATE Post Date: 06/10/2015 *murder chg/dismissed
Case #: Amount: $0.00 Status: No Bond Posted By: MAGISTRATE Post Date: 04/02/2015

Charge Information
Case # Offense Date Code Description Grade Degree
03/22/2015 MUR0934F9 MURDER FELONY A SP
04/02/2015 FAM3806F4 FAMILY OFFENSE MINORS CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT A 4
04/02/2015 FAM3808F6 FAMILY OFFENSE MINORS GROSS/WANTON/RECKLESS CARE OF CHILD A 6
http://iml.nrvrj.org:8085/IML

April 2, 2015 Ashley White was charged under two different subsections of the law. One charge, like Thomas&#8217;, relates to &#8220;reckless disregard for human life&#8221; and carries with it the same punishment. However, she is also being charged under a more serious subsection that is a Class 4 felony which is punishable by no less than two years and no more than 10 years.

That subsection involves &#8220;serious injuries&#8221; to a child that were received under an adult&#8217;s care. Those injuries, as defined by state code include: &#8220;disfigurement, a fracture, a severe burn or laceration, mutilation, maiming, forced ingestion of dangerous substances, or life threatening internal injuries.&#8221; http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_317ae1ed-ccc2-52cc-bb94-0ebfb2e94095.html

Paul Thomas
Incarceration Information
Commitment Date: 04/02/2015

Bond Information
Case #: Amount: $0.00 Status: No Bond Posted By: MAGISTRATE Post Date: 04/02/2015

Charge Information
Case # Offense Date Code Description Grade Degree
03/22/2015 FAM3808F6 FAMILY OFFENSE MINORS GROSS/WANTON/RECKLESS CARE OF CHILD F 6
03/22/2015 FAM3808F6 FAMILY OFFENSE MINORS GROSS/WANTON/RECKLESS CARE OF CHILD A 6
http://iml.nrvrj.org:8085/IML

Paul Thomas was charged under a subsection of the law that relates to &#8220;reckless disregard for human life.&#8221; His charges are a Class 6 felony and carry with them a minimum of a one-year prison sentence and up to five years for each charge. http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_317ae1ed-ccc2-52cc-bb94-0ebfb2e94095.html

 

[arkansasmimi]

JMHO, With Pros charging Ashley with the different charge than Paul initially. Then only charging Ashley with the murder, its JMHO, they have always thought that Noah died after Paul was at work. If they thought otherwise, Paul would have/should have been charged with murder also. **So why was Paul NOT also charged? He a parent, also left both of the children at home while Ashley drove him to work.

Ashley is the one who gave diff time frames of when she last saw Noah that morning and nap/woke up. I haven't seen where Paul statements have been released. Only reason I can think of as to why he wasn't charged is if he gave different time frame of seeing Noah. JMHO **

:thinking: So could that be the reason why Paul's Offense Dates are March 22, 2015 (he has alibi confirmed being at work that date and TIME verified by video at store and at his employment)
Ashley Offense Date for both is date of arrest April 2, 2015. By that dated they already knew that Noah drowned and were awaiting the Tox screen. JMHO, if ME thought he had died prior to Paul going to work, Paul would have been charged also.

After several hours of testimony Wednesday, White&#8217;s attorney &#8212; public defender Kelsey Bulger &#8212; made a motion to dismiss the felony homicide charge, saying that the prosecution hasn&#8217;t presented enough evidence to prove Noah&#8217;s death was directly a result of the neglect that would be needed to convict.

According to Virginia code, felony homicide is the &#8220;killing of one accidentally, contrary to the intentions while in the prosecution of some felonious act.&#8221;

&#8220;Where is the connection between child neglect and the death?&#8221; Chitwood asked Pulaski County Commonwealth&#8217;s Attorney Mike Fleenor.

Fleenor argued that the underlying &#8220;felonious act&#8221; was leaving the children at home. Fleenor said that the only evidence that proves Noah was alive and well when Ashley White returned home from work is her own statements, which he says can&#8217;t be believed.

Bulger disagreed, saying that White has always maintained that when she returned home, Noah and his infant sister were fine.

Chitwood then ruled that leaving the children at home while she drove Paul Thomas to work did not directly cause the boy&#8217;s death , and he dismissed the homicide charge.

 

[pukasonqo2]

not much to add except: may they rot in jail

 

[arkansasmimi]

:thinking:
I was thinking originally when I read that the dogs had stopped tracking Noah at the road... that it was the MAIN RD... but now I am thinking it was what I would call a drive way. Leading from the main road of Highland to the Thomas/White home and whatever is behind them, which from Google Maps looks like possibly another home back there. from Google view of the address in this article http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/can...m-thursday-in-dublin-for-noah-thomas/32027996
Google Map for address listed ^
https://www.google.com/maps/place/5...2!3m1!1s0x884de4357dca99a5:0x3ddbfc64a4261f73

&#8220;We have not one neighbor that saw anyone, not one suspicious vehicle in the area, not one stranger in the area,&#8221; the sheriff said. A couple of dogs tracked what is believed to be the boy&#8217;s scent Sunday, but they stopped tracking at the same place &#8212; near the road.

Davis says the location where the dogs stopped is only a &#8220;very short distance&#8221; from the house, but he wouldn&#8217;t speculate on what that could mean.
....

Asked what his heart is telling him about the inability to locate Noah, Davis paused a while and then said, &#8220;I can&#8217;t speculate. I&#8217;m trying to base everything we&#8217;re doing on physical evidence and leads.&#8221;

Unfortunately, physical evidence isn&#8217;t something they have a lot of at this point.
http://www.southwesttimes.com/2015/03/search-for-child-enters-third-day/

 

[arkansasmimi]

Then I found this. Sorry if it is a repeat. First time I saw and wanted to share.

Pulaski County Sheriff's Office K-9 Unit

The Pulaski County Sheriff's Office currently has one K-9 "Baloo" and it's handler Corporal Lucas Nester. "Baloo" is a bloodhound and is trained for human tracking, Baloo along with his handler spend numerous hours training and provide demonstrations for local community and civic events. http://www.sheriffsoffice.org/#!k-9/c1d6p

:thinking: Was the Pulaski County K9 Baloo with his handler (who testified at the Prelim Hearing April 12) ... when he arrived at the residence March 22? Baloo is according to Pulaski Cty Sheriff Office, a bloodhound trained for human tracking.... yet Baloo (if was there) missed Noah in septic tank, Cpl Nester, and also another officer missed Noah in that Septic tank on March 22.
Yet logic tells us from the information we heard via media, (Noah drowned in the septic tank) he would have HAD to have been there when LEO arrived, not hid and put there later.

Pulaski County Cpl. Lucas Nester was one of the first to arrive at the residence on Highland Road when White reporter Noah missing. Upon arrival, he said he conducted a brief search of the single-wide trailer and continued out into the backyard.
Nester came across the septic tank that was located just yards from the backdoor of the trailer. He testified the tank had a circular green lid on it that &#8220;was not heavy at all&#8221; &#8212; similar to a trashcan lid, he said. But when he kicked the lid with his boot, it popped off.

Later, he returned with another Pulaski County investigator who dipped a six-foot pole into the tank and &#8220;moved it around a little bit.&#8221;
&#8220;It didn&#8217;t hit or strike anything,&#8221; Nester testified.

The deputies proceeded to put the lid back on the tank and it went untouched for several days until a more &#8220;through and aggressive&#8221; search of the property was conducted. Noah&#8217;s body wasn&#8217;t found until March 26 when the septic tank was drained.