GUILTY VA - Noah Thomas, 5, Pulaski County, 22 March 2015 #7

[AnnaGrace]

I stated this earlier... I think bc of neglect (parents left kids alone <modsnip>) Noah fell into the tank, parents new they would go to prison, so they put the lid back on! Then called the police with the missing child BS.

Their smiles in court yesterday really disgusted me too.

My daughter actually showed me a pic of her smiling and said she'd like to smack it off her face. Disgusting, yes! She has nothing to smile about. Her little boy is dead and died a horrible death. How do you muster up a smile in those circumstances? He's dead because of his miserable, selfish parents.

 

[mpnola]

I stated this earlier... I think bc of neglect (parents left kids alone <modsnip>) Noah fell into the tank, parents new they would go to prison, so they put the lid back on! Then called the police with the missing child BS.

Their smiles in court yesterday really disgusted me too.

There is not a single parent that I can think of that would suspect their child to have fallen in a literal crap hole and instead of nearly jumping in after that, just covering it up and continuing to flush on top of them. Any parent capable of doing that is JUST as capable of throwing him alive, to me. I would be down in that pile of s*** so fast if I thought my 5 year old was in there!!!!!!!!

 

[Paulas88]

There is not a single parent that I can think of that would suspect their child to have fallen in a literal crap hole and instead of nearly jumping in after that, just covering it up and continuing to flush on top of them. Any parent capable of doing that is JUST as capable of throwing him alive, to me. I would be down in that pile of s*** so fast if I thought my 5 year old was in there!!!!!!!!

You and me both!! God knows how long he was even missing before they noticed!

 

[gitana1]

I'm really confused about why the CA thought there was enough evidence to charge her with felony murder. He went on to say, or maybe it was the sheriff, that that charge meant an accidental death during the commission of a felony, which was the neglect and abuse charges. If that was the case, then why felonious murder instead of neglectful homicide? Why did they think it was murder? I hope someone can make this a little clearer to me. What evidence did they have that only Ashley was charged with felonious murder? I'm not understanding any of this.

Until they did the autopsy I can see why they felt there was enough evidence.

I apologize, my last post sort of explains my frustration with the apparent acceptance of the parents behaviour and actions. Just a tad close to home for me. Sorry again, not your fault at all.

I'm wondering who is accepting the parents' actions here? They still face criminal charges for the neglect and I think everyone here is appalled by their cavalier treatment of their children and the horrific way this poor baby died.

You know what? I've been debating whether or not to say this, but wth, I'm gonna say it. I don't think LE believes in AW's innocence and I don't either. Things just aren't right and somebody's lying. That is all.

What are your theories and how do the facts support or could support those theories? I mean I don't think they're innocent - they neglected their kid and he died. But I can't figure out what else they might be guilty of. Like straight out murder or abuse of a corpse. What are your thoughts?

 

[gitana1]

My daughter actually showed me a pic of her smiling and said she'd like to smack it off her face. Disgusting, yes! She has nothing to smile about. Her little boy is dead and died a horrible death. How do you muster up a smile in those circumstances? He's dead because of his miserable, selfish parents.

If I knew my child had died in a pool of excrement while I slept or whatever- I'd kill myself. Period. They can smile? Evil.

 

[Steleheart]

If I knew my child had died in a pool of excrement while I slept or whatever- I'd kill myself. Period. They can smile? Evil.

gitana1, do you know if the felony murder charge can just be dropped or must it be dismissed with or without prejudice by the judge. And would that mean that it can or cannot be brought again?

TIA.

 

[courtneyb]

There is not a single parent that I can think of that would suspect their child to have fallen in a literal crap hole and instead of nearly jumping in after that, just covering it up and continuing to flush on top of them. Any parent capable of doing that is JUST as capable of throwing him alive, to me. I would be down in that pile of s*** so fast if I thought my 5 year old was in there!!!!!!!!

If I even thought there was a chance my child was in that tank, the cops would have had to pull two people out instead of one. I certainly wouldn't go party in a hotel room and trash it.

At that time, not only was her son gone, but her BABY had been just been taken away.

I think LE was just as shocked about what happened at the hearing as we were.


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[AnnaGrace]

Until they did the autopsy I can see why they felt there was enough evidence.



I'm wondering who is accepting the parents' actions here? They still face criminal charges for the neglect and I think everyone here is appalled by their cavalier treatment of their children and the horrific way this poor baby died.



What are your theories and how do the facts support or could support those theories? I mean I don't think they're innocent - they neglected their kid and he died. But I can't figure out what else they might be guilty of. Like straight out murder or abuse of a corpse. What are your thoughts?

BBM

Thanks Gitana. According to these two reports, Ashley White was charged with felony murder on June 10 and the autopsy was finalized on June 3rd.

http://wtvr.com/2015/06/10/noah-thomas-mother-charged-with-5-year-olds-murder/

"Authorities have not disclosed the cause of the child’s death, although Tharp signed a final autopsy report June 3."

http://www.roanoke.com/news/noah-th...cle_e899eb30-75de-5612-940a-89b4d7c1fd82.html

My main question is why was Ashley charged with felony murder instead of negligent homicide? Why did LE think it was murder (even though they said it was an accident) instead of negligent homicide (accident occurring during neglect that led to Noah's death)? What are your thoughts on that? Also, why were Ashley's neglect charges more severe from the beginning than Paul's? If it was due to neglect of leaving the children home alone, wouldn't he be just as guilty? Yet, he was never charged with murder or homicide? What are your thoughts on this?

As far your other questions, I'll have to think on those, so as not to base it on my high running opinions right now. I shouldn't have said 'lying', but instead, withholding details that lead to Noah's death. I can say that I'm basing most of my opinions on LE's actions, which creates reasonable doubt in my mind about Ashley's innocence. I'll answer this too, that I don't think abuse of a corpse, since little Noah drowned in that horrible **** pit. Heartbreakingly, he was alive when he went in. Since the tox report was negative, we now know that he wasn't drugged before ending up there, which I was really clinging to, because it was so much better to be able to believe he wasn't conscious in there. I also don't think it was straight out murder. I really just desperately want to know how and why? So many questions are unanswered and where are we now? I don't think the case is over and there's more to come. There's got to be.

 

[courtneyb]

Ashley White was charged on June 10th with felony murder. They already had the autopsy report at that point, iirc.

I just don't see how they thought they had evidence to charge her at that point, but now the judge says no. So do we chalk that up to ineptitude on the part of the DA?

They had all the information on June 10th as they did at the hearing, and I think they thought it would stick. I wonder if they have any working theories but just don't have enough evidence to act on them.


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[courtneyb]

Ha, Anna Grace! We must have been looking up the dates at the same time. Thanks for posting the links!


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[AnnaGrace]

Yes, you know what they say...great minds and all that! :waitasec:

Is anybody else having probs with getting logged off every few minutes. I had a heck of a time getting my last post out.

 

[courtneyb]

I have been too.


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[AnnaGrace]

Until they did the autopsy I can see why they felt there was enough evidence.



I'm wondering who is accepting the parents' actions here? They still face criminal charges for the neglect and I think everyone here is appalled by their cavalier treatment of their children and the horrific way this poor baby died.



What are your theories and how do the facts support or could support those theories? I mean I don't think they're innocent - they neglected their kid and he died. But I can't figure out what else they might be guilty of. Like straight out murder or abuse of a corpse. What are your thoughts?

BBM

I'm not sure what my theories are, but this article has contributing factors:

http://www.roanoke.com/news/crime/p...cle_ef8530da-abe1-5e92-b0a7-4a062f43ad94.html

"Fleenor argued that the underlying “felonious act” was leaving the children at home. Fleenor said that the only evidence that proves Noah was alive and well when Ashley White returned home from work is her own statements, which he says can’t be believed."

"Pulaski County Cpl. Lucas Nester was one of the first to arrive at the residence on Highland Road when White reported Noah missing. Upon arrival, he said he conducted a brief search of the single-wide trailer and continued out into the backyard.
"Nester came across the septic tank that was located just yards from the back door of the trailer. He testified the tank had a circular green lid on it that “was not heavy at all” — similar to a trash can lid, he said. When he kicked the lid with his boot, it popped off.' My question, If the lid just fell back down, would it seal itself? Would it pop off or just move when kicked?

From the medical examiner:


Tharp also testified that she was unable to determine the manner of Noah’s death.

“I marked it as undetermined because as of right now it isn’t necessarily clear how he came to be in that septic tank,” she said.

And sorry, but this right here sickens me:

"Paul Thomas and Ashley White sat in the hearing together, divided by their attorneys. Through certain parts of the hearing, they cried and whispered “I love you” across the table to each other." Wouldn't they have been crying, "Oh God, oh God, my baby" or something about their baby instead of I love you to each other?

 

[deugirtni]

Yeah, I think it was just a miscellaneous item recovered along with Noah's body - like the toothpaste cap.

Wow, just catching up on this news. I am shocked actually. So many questions remain.

One of them is.... what would be the purpose in itemizing some of the things also found in the tank at the same time that Noah was found? When you have little ones, and perhaps even when there are no little ones, things can get flushed or sucked down a drain, on purpose or accidentally.. a used condom? Why not list used toilet paper too then? A toothpaste cap? I know that I have lost things down a sink or a bath drain accidentally. The cellphone gives me reason to wonder about things however. A cellphone would be an item too large to flush or slip down a bath drain accidentally, so how did the cellphone get in there, and when did it go in there? I would love to know when that particular cellphone stopped being live. Did Noah have it with him? Was it in there from years ago? Did someone lift the lid and put it in there, and if so, why, and why there? Whose cellphone was it? Is the cellphone potentially relevant to this case? Was Noah's new toy (from memory, the Pokeman cards/case??) also found in there, and if not, then where is it?

Another question burning a hole in my heart, is.. if that lid wasn't bolted in properly, and it wasn't too heavy for a child to move, and this type of lid has an unfortunate history of devouring humans, especially children, then why wasn't it the very first thing that was examined and ruled out by police (if not the family themselves)? Why start expensive, resource intensive searches, when you have an accident waiting to happen right in the family's very own backyard?? If they had found poor Noah's body within hours instead of days, could more have been determined in regard to his COD, even if finding him sooner wouldn't have saved him? What is it about the septic that made LE decide NOT to have it examined right away?

ETA: Ok nevermind about the cellphone, I see that Noah had it in his pocket and that it was a deactivated phone that he used for play on a regular basis.

 

[arkansasmimi]

Just what I was thinking the other day. After following the AJ Hadsell case. Her father had a charge of Breaking and Entering dismissed by the Judge but the Pros did a Direct Indictment to the Grand Jury. Something different in VA than most states.

To me it makes the whole process of going before the Judge .. just weird if they aren't going to have to go by his rulings. JMHO ** just in General, no any specific case. And JMHO, I think the big deal is they do not know when exactly or how Noah entered the septic tank. That is to me the biggie.

oah Thomas' parents, Ashley White and Paul Thomas are still facing two felony child abuse and neglect charges each.

But the big charge Judge Lee Chitwood dropped was the murder charge.

Murder is always a felony in Virginia.

But prosecutors had charged Ashley White with specifically "Felony Homicide," the special circumstances attached to it, being the additional charges of child abuse that led to a child's death.

Lynchburg's Commonwealth's attorney, Mike Doucette explains.

"Felony murder is different than murder in the first or second degree in the sense in that felony murder is the accidental killing of somebody in the commission of another felony."

Just because the judge didn't find sufficient evidence doesn't mean this is the final charge.

Pulaski County Prosecutor Mike Fleenor can still ask a grand jury to indict, says Doucette.http://www.wset.com/story/29783142/explaining-charges-in-noah-thomas-case

 

[arkansasmimi]

Wow, just catching up on this news. I am shocked actually. So many questions remain.

One of them is.... what would be the purpose in itemizing some of the things also found in the tank at the same time that Noah was found? When you have little ones, and perhaps even when there are no little ones, things can get flushed or sucked down a drain, on purpose or accidentally.. a used condom? Why not list used toilet paper too then? A toothpaste cap? I know that I have lost things down a sink or a bath drain accidentally. The cellphone gives me reason to wonder about things however. A cellphone would be an item too large to flush or slip down a bath drain accidentally, so how did the cellphone get in there, and when did it go in there? I would love to know when that particular cellphone stopped being live. Did Noah have it with him? Was it in there from years ago? Did someone lift the lid and put it in there, and if so, why, and why there? Whose cellphone was it? Is the cellphone potentially relevant to this case? Was Noah's new toy (from memory, the Pokeman cards/case??) also found in there, and if not, then where is it?

Another question burning a hole in my heart, is.. if that lid wasn't bolted in properly, and it wasn't too heavy for a child to move, and this type of lid has an unfortunate history of devouring humans, especially children, then why wasn't it the very first thing that was examined and ruled out by police (if not the family themselves)? Why start expensive, resource intensive searches, when you have an accident waiting to happen right in the family's very own backyard?? If they had found poor Noah's body within hours instead of days, could more have been determined in regard to his COD, even if finding him sooner wouldn't have saved him? What is it about the septic that made LE decide NOT to have it examined right away?

ETA: Ok nevermind about the cellphone, I see that Noah had it in his pocket and that it was a deactivated phone that he used for play on a regular basis.

LEO testified they DID check the septic tank the day he went missing, March 22nd.

This article says March 27th? Thought it was 26th. But anyways, it has little more info. Also remember that both the white house and the single wide were hooked to the same septic tank.

Investigators testified that they searched the property and even checked the septic tank, one deputy telling the court he "kicked the lid off" the tank and that it easily "popped off," in his search of the property.

Investigators also testified poking a four foot metal rod into the tank late in the day on March 22nd.

But they didn't detect a body in the tank, which they said was "filled almost all the way to the top" with liquefied sewage.

Investigators say they intensified their search for Noah and drained the tank on March 27th, which is when they recovered him with a special hoist apparatus with help from HazMat teams from Roanoke. http://www.wset.com/story/29768318/update-cause-parents-of-noah-thomas-in-court-wednesday

 

[arkansasmimi]

JMHO, thinking out loud.... From reading it seems like that tank would be small for the 2 homes attached to it. Or from my understanding reading here, they were both on the same. Since the lit was not bolted shut, I wondering if they may have had it pumped recently and that's why it was possibly not secured correctly. I would be interested to know when last time it was serviced. Possible that Noah seen someone messing with it. IIRC, he had lived there since a newborn.

Legal Standards: You should always be aware of the laws and building codes that relate to your septic system before you begin construction. For example, in some areas it is not legal to install a septic tank with a volume smaller than 1,000 gallons. Some areas, where there is a high level of moisture in the soil it is also illegal to install plastic tanks because they will float back to the surface. The septic tank you purchase must be in accordance with the state, city and local housing authority codes.

Number of Bedrooms: The number of bedrooms in a home is also used to estimate the size septic tank needed. A home with two or fewer bedrooms needs a septic tank that holds at least 750 gallon. A three bedroom home should have a septic tank with a volume of at least 1,000 gallons. A four bedroom home should have at least a 1,200-gallon tank, and a five or six bedroom home's system should hold no less than 1,500-gallon. http://www.ses-company.com/resource-center/septic-tank-size-warrenton-va.html

 

[arkansasmimi]

Here is an interesting article re size and how often should be pumped out. http://www.vdwws.com/faqs/standard-septic-system/

JMHO, I am wondering if Noah body was moved around by the LEO stirring around and it got in front of one of the drain lines, either incoming or out flowing lines and caused it to stop up, causing back up few days later.

ETA: not trying to be disrespectful or sound gross, but by the time his body was discovered, gasses had built up just from being deceased few days. So his little body would be bloated. My Moms cousin drowned yrs ago on a fishing trip. They stated that x amount of days the gasses bring the body up to surface in many cases. Which is what happened in our case. Thats what made me curious if that could be possible "tip" to search the tank again. It being full would most likely caused odor in drains. JMHO

 

[Sparky]

JMHO, thinking out loud.... From reading it seems like that tank would be small for the 2 homes attached to it. Or from my understanding reading here, they were both on the same. Since the lit was not bolted shut, I wondering if they may have had it pumped recently and that's why it was possibly not secured correctly. I would be interested to know when last time it was serviced. Possible that Noah seen someone messing with it. IIRC, he had lived there since a newborn.

I had wondered if someone was checking the tank to see how low/full it was and forgot to put the lid back on or didn't securely put it back on. Jmo

 

[arkansasmimi]

Nester came across the septic tank that was located just yards from the back door of the trailer. He testified the tank had a circular green lid on it that &#8220;was not heavy at all&#8221; &#8212; similar to a trash can lid, he said. When he kicked the lid with his boot, it popped off.

Later, he returned with another Pulaski County investigator who dipped a 6-foot pole into the tank and &#8220;moved it around a little bit.&#8221;

&#8220;It didn&#8217;t hit or strike anything,&#8221; Nester testified.

The deputies proceeded to put the lid back on the tank and it went untouched for several days until a more &#8220;through and aggressive&#8221; search of the property was conducted. Noah&#8217;s body wasn&#8217;t found until March 26 when the septic tank was drained.

Dr. Amy Tharp, assistant chief medical examiner for Western Virginia, testified when her office received the body additional precautions had to be taken into account, since the body was drenched in solid and liquid hazardous waste. A hazmat team had to come in the day before and confirm that their facilities were safe to conduct the autopsy in. http://www.newsadvance.com/news/sta...cle_af6d2cd4-4769-5e0f-8c43-08b99deafc4b.html