VA - Scott Fricker, 48, & Buckley Kuhn-Fricker, 43, slain, Reston, 22 Dec 2017 *daughter’s bf charged*

[Lilibet]

Would an approach that avoided violence not have led to a better outcome?

Dominion students are all kinds of messed up. The potential for violence in a 17 yo male Dominion student is high... *Any* 17 yo male Dominion student.

I have teenagers. I am very interested in how one might handle this situation without risking one's life. If I know one of my child's friends may be violent, how might I address that without triggering that violence?

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BBM

I think handling that situation without triggering violence is easier said than done. You and I talked about this very early in post #42 before we knew about what kind of school it was or that the daughter was messed up too. At that point we thought the main problem was his Nazi viewpoint. I’m not sure if what I said then (quoted below) is even applicable...it sounds kind of naive with what we now know. I’m a firm believer in approaching volatile situations in a peaceful, calming way. I still think showing how much you care gets better results than alienation. If I knew that the boyfriend was capable of violence, I would tread very, very lightly. But sometimes decisive action is needed.

Buckley’s apparent goal was to protect her daughter from acquiring repugnant beliefs. I think that horse had already left the barn and her daughter was clearly part of the problem. It sounds as if Buckley felt that taking a public stand against Nazi beliefs was hugely important. Maybe she realized that her daughter was already on the “dark side” and all she could do is stand firm for her own values, no matter what. It’s impossible to second guess her decisions. Dying for what you believe is not the worst thing someone can do, although I doubt that was her intent, of course. I wish I had an answer. But I’m still on the side of a peaceful approach.

I think the only approach that would work is cultivating an extra close and understanding relationship with their daughter and counteracting his indoctrination over time, not in one intervention. Let her explain her new views, if she would admit them. Let him explain his views. Keep calm and keep lines of communication open...easier said than done! The Mom was asking about WWII videos they could show their daughter, so she realized that was needed. At what point she realized that, I’m not sure. I totally understand her sense of panic, but extreme action is just going to make a teen dig in their heels. I’m sure they had no idea that he would be so dangerous though. What a tragedy.

 

[rsd1200]

That's calling for caution in assuming that the parents themselves are nazis, which is sensible. What doesn't seem sensible to me is downplaying the shooter's own views and accusing the mother of not having a more measured response when she would likely not suffer the same criticism had this boy held extremist views that were in line with ISIS.

Still, I have not seen anyone in this thread actually assume his parents help Neo Nazi views, or that the entire family should be shipped off to Gitmo or something.

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No, but, there has been finger pointing at them for their conservative views and assuming there was lots of hate in the household. I've got close family who are right wing and they'd never dream of hurting anyone, and I've never heard them slinging hate around. They raised a child who recently entered into a mixed race marriage, and they didn't boycott the wedding or ban the man from their home... We don't know yet what his home life was like. We only know what her family has told at this point. And they knew way back in the summer that he shared beliefs much different than their own. She was flinging words around like "monster" and this was a 17 y/o very troubled kid, or he'd not even have been in that class with her daughter. In other words, I didn't expect any of the parents in my kid's alt school to call MINE a monster, because THEIRS was in there too and for reasons as bad, or worse, than for what my child had done to be there. Troubled kids many times, go to the dark side.

 

[beandawgs]

I'm not sure there's an answer to that. If there was a way to end a relationship with someone who has the potential to be violent without triggering their violence, I think we'd know about it through domestic violence resources. There's no way to end a relationship with a violent person without triggering them. There are only ways to attempt to avoid being beaten or killed, which sometimes involves moving and hiding.

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I don't know the circumstances surrounding why the girl was at that school to begin with - did her parents consent to placement there? My guess is that the parents were also naive about the types of kids in such a school - this is NOT the place where you ever want your child to be unless there is absolutely no choice. I don't know if the girl did something bad at her local school , I don't know. But I do know that I would never ever want my children to be around these types of kids at this age level. And yes, again, I speak from experience - my son was in a similar class in first grade , I've taught in one in middle school and my mom taught this class for over 20 years. You don't get into that type of school just because you have minor adjustment issues - those kids are deeply, deeply disturbed and if they haven't made it back to their regular campus by the time they are 16,17 that's just not good.

 

[rsd1200]

BBM

I think handling that situation without triggering violence is easier said than done. You and I talked about this very early in post #42 before we knew about what kind of school it was or that the daughter was messed up too. At that point we thought the main problem was his Nazi viewpoint. I’m not sure if what I said then (quoted below) is even applicable...it sounds kind of naive with what we now know. I’m a firm believer in approaching volatile situations in a peaceful, calming way. I still think showing how much you care gets better results than alienation. If I knew that the boyfriend was capable of violence, I would tread very, very lightly. But sometimes decisive action is needed.

Buckley’s apparent goal was to protect her daughter from acquiring repugnant beliefs. I think that horse had already left the barn and her daughter was clearly part of the problem. It sounds as if Buckley felt that taking a public stand against Nazi beliefs was hugely important. Maybe she realized that her daughter was already on the “dark side” and all she could do is stand firm for her own values, no matter what. It’s impossible to second guess her decisions. Dying for what you believe is not the worst thing someone can do, although I doubt that was her intent, of course. I wish I had an answer. But I’m still on the side of a peaceful approach.

I think the only approach that would work is cultivating an extra close and understanding relationship with their daughter and counteracting his indoctrination over time, not in one intervention. Let her explain her new views, if she would admit them. Let him explain his views. Keep calm and keep lines of communication open...easier said than done! The Mom was asking about WWII videos they could show their daughter, so she realized that was needed. At what point she realized that, I’m not sure. I totally understand her sense of panic, but extreme action is just going to make a teen dig in their heels. I’m sure they had no idea that he would be so dangerous though. What a tragedy.

Great post. Peaceful and measured, I've learned, is the key (although I know it is difficult sometimes).

 

[Deleted member 158085]

No, but, there has been finger pointing at them for their conservative views and assuming there was lots of hate in the household. I've got close family who are right wing and they'd never dream of hurting anyone, and I've never heard them slinging hate around. They raised a child who recently entered into a mixed race marriage, and they didn't boycott the wedding or ban the man from their home... We don't know yet what his home life was like. We only know what her family has told at this point. And they knew way back in the summer that he shared beliefs much different than their own. She was flinging words around like "monster" and this was a 17 y/o very troubled kid, or he'd not even have been in that class with her daughter. In other words, I didn't expect any of the parents in my kid's alt school to call MINE a monster, because THEIRS was in there too and for reasons as bad, or worse, than for what my child had done to be there. Troubled kids many times, go to the dark side.

The posts I remember specifically mention his mother laughing at an act of violence against someone who chose to sit during the pledge of allegiance. That's not a conservative view, IMO, that they were pointing out. I have best friends who are conservative, but who do not post such extremes, nor would they suggest such in private.

I don't think they were pointing out conservatism so much as the beginnings of extremism. I mean, that was posted publicly, so I do wonder how far her private views go. Still, I do not have reason to suspect actual nazi support.

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[beandawgs]

No, but, there has been finger pointing at them for their conservative views and assuming there was lots of hate in the household. I've got close family who are right wing and they'd never dream of hurting anyone, and I've never heard them slinging hate around. They raised a child who recently entered into a mixed race marriage, and they didn't boycott the wedding or ban the man from their home... We don't know yet what his home life was like. We only know what her family has told at this point. And they knew way back in the summer that he shared beliefs much different than their own. She was flinging words around like "monster" and this was a 17 y/o very troubled kid, or he'd not even have been in that class with her daughter. In other words, I didn't expect any of the parents in my kid's alt school to call MINE a monster, because THEIRS was in there too and for reasons as bad, or worse, than for what my child had done to be there. Troubled kids many times, go to the dark side.

As the parent of a kid with 'troubles' - I don't blame the parents - too many times we are singled out by others to be ineffective, weak parents - those who haven't walked in our shoes have absolutely NO idea - I'm much stronger than the average parent. The parent of an average, no issues child has it easy. No idea at all do they understand what we go through. That being said, I know with my son there was another kid in the class with an older brother who burned down their house 3 x (yes 3 times - I'm friends with their insurance agent, they can no longer get homeowners insurance) and killed the neighbor's cat, stuffing him in the neighbor's mailbox. Stay away from those kids at all costs - even though my son was once in that younger boy's class I never let them have a friendship outside of school, ever. I think any kid who idolizes Nazis is a monster. Its called "antisocial personality disorder" - there is no treatment for it, just keep your children and loved ones away from them.

 

[beandawgs]

BBM

I think handling that situation without triggering violence is easier said than done. You and I talked about this very early in post #42 before we knew about what kind of school it was or that the daughter was messed up too. At that point we thought the main problem was his Nazi viewpoint. I’m not sure if what I said then (quoted below) is even applicable...it sounds kind of naive with what we now know. I’m a firm believer in approaching volatile situations in a peaceful, calming way. I still think showing how much you care gets better results than alienation. If I knew that the boyfriend was capable of violence, I would tread very, very lightly. But sometimes decisive action is needed.

Buckley’s apparent goal was to protect her daughter from acquiring repugnant beliefs. I think that horse had already left the barn and her daughter was clearly part of the problem. It sounds as if Buckley felt that taking a public stand against Nazi beliefs was hugely important. Maybe she realized that her daughter was already on the “dark side” and all she could do is stand firm for her own values, no matter what. It’s impossible to second guess her decisions. Dying for what you believe is not the worst thing someone can do, although I doubt that was her intent, of course. I wish I had an answer. But I’m still on the side of a peaceful approach.

I think the only approach that would work is cultivating an extra close and understanding relationship with their daughter and counteracting his indoctrination over time, not in one intervention. Let her explain her new views, if she would admit them. Let him explain his views. Keep calm and keep lines of communication open...easier said than done! The Mom was asking about WWII videos they could show their daughter, so she realized that was needed. At what point she realized that, I’m not sure. I totally understand her sense of panic, but extreme action is just going to make a teen dig in their heels. I’m sure they had no idea that he would be so dangerous though. What a tragedy.

Good post - I also think this mother was very naïve in thinking that the Nazi issue was her breaking point - I'm thinking this kid was not a nice kid to begin with, probably the Nazi thing is the LEAST of his issues.

 

[Jennifer17]

No, but, there has been finger pointing at them for their conservative views and assuming there was lots of hate in the household. I've got close family who are right wing and they'd never dream of hurting anyone, and I've never heard them slinging hate around. They raised a child who recently entered into a mixed race marriage, and they didn't boycott the wedding or ban the man from their home... We don't know yet what his home life was like. We only know what her family has told at this point. And they knew way back in the summer that he shared beliefs much different than their own. She was flinging words around like "monster" and this was a 17 y/o very troubled kid, or he'd not even have been in that class with her daughter. In other words, I didn't expect any of the parents in my kid's alt school to call MINE a monster, because THEIRS was in there too and for reasons as bad, or worse, than for what my child had done to be there. Troubled kids many times, go to the dark side.

Maybe the mother knew more about him than we know. And he pretty much did turn out to be a monster to them.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Maybe the mother knew more about him than we know. And he pretty much did turn out to be a monster to them.

Yeah, we also don't know what other action she may have taken prior to the latest. We only know what bits the media included from interviews with friends and family. And it is entirely possible that they were not aware of any more nuanced actions she took in the beginning.

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[beandawgs]

Dominion has more of a special Ed slant. Fairfax county also has an alternative high school, Mountain View. They definitely overlap, but a student who has been incarcerated or has drug addiction issues would go to Mountain View instead of Dominion. Dominion definitely would not have college prep.

My hubs used to teach at an alternative education high school in the Detroit projects. *That* was scary!

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In Texas the disciplinary side is called "DAEP" - that would be Mountain View in your area. The Dominion school would be for special education Emotionally Disturbed students - you are sent there via an IEP (Texas calls it an ARD meeting) - it is a very legal format , sped Ed meeting to make this placement. a DAEP placement is a disciplinary issue. Spec Ed kids can also be sent to the DAEP but only after an IEP meeting with the parents included. At that point its time to get an attorney involved.

 

[rsd1200]

The posts I remember specifically mention his mother laughing at an act of violence against someone who chose to sit during the pledge of allegiance. That's not a conservative view, IMO, that they were pointing out. I have best friends who are conservative, but who do not post such extremes, nor would they suggest such in private.

I don't think they were pointing out conservatism so much as the beginnings of extremism. I mean, that was posted publicly, so I do wonder how far her private views go. Still, I do not have reason to suspect actual nazi support.

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I have not seen the post so cannot speak to it but, at 17, I doubt he gave a rat's behind what his mother was posting, and from being in that school, at 17, probably hadn't for a long time. We could also look at her mom and right after making her break up at Christmas, posts the "for good men to sit by" quote, was like a slap to her daughter. It would have been to me at that age and I was very hard to handle. I'd have let him in for spite, or took off with him, for ending my relationship, at Christmas no less, and then boasting about it online? I'm just being truthful about my past My parent's deeply held, upright, moral values, meant nothing to me by 17, and little at 14, other than not letting them find out where I was and what I was doing. Just opening the window a bit to give a view into how I thought at that age, and there were no schools to lock me in at that age.

 

[borndem]

Another thought - to be in one of these classes you have to be very very seriously disturbed. Also the parents might not have been paying tuition - in VA the public school system sends kids to these schools instead of having the emotionally disturbed class in a public school. My mother taught a similar class for many years. At the age of 16/17 to be in a classlike this it is not good news at all - if you had any promise in succeeding in school the district would be moving you to a regular high school and working towards graduation. If you stay in a school like this you can't graduate with a real high school diploma. Also I saw an earlier comment about aging out at 22 - special Ed kids can stay in school that long if they need. My thoughts are the kids at this school are low functioning. As you might tell I have a lot of experience personally and professionally dealing with this.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, beandawgs!

Ideas & info from professionals in a pertinent subject are always :wagon:!!

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I'm not sure there's an answer to that. If there was a way to end a relationship with someone who has the potential to be violent without triggering their violence, I think we'd know about it through domestic violence resources. There's no way to end a relationship with a violent person without triggering them. There are only ways to attempt to avoid being beaten or killed, which sometimes involves moving and hiding.

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There are ways to de-escalate violent situations, as well as ways to not get into a potentially violent situation.

https://www.securitymagazine.com/articles/86543-methods-to-de-escalate-violent-situations

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ps...-the-rage/201506/5-ways-deal-angry-people?amp

https://www.crisisprevention.com/Blog/June-2011/De-escalation-Tips

https://vividlearningsystems.com/safety-toolbox/conflict-de-escalation-techniques


So could any of these strategies be used to better handle this type of situation? Would any other approach have worked?

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[Wyle_E_Coyote]

#1) We never thought that our wayward one would hurt anyone, however, we feared he may become troubled enough, through depression spells, that he'd harm himself, so #1, we took the firearms out of the home except for one each. These were secured, and ammo secured separately. No bonding through target practice. Period.

2) I'd have called the other parents, instead of emailing. I'd have asked if we could have a sit down. Just the four of us, at a local restaurant, and calmly explain that their son was coming in through our windows at night. That we'd talked to our daughter, and we'd like for it to stop. Yesterday. Based on the two kids history, neither of us needed to be grandparents.

3) If I had the money, I'd have installed a Brinks system (or something similar). I'd only allow my spouse and I to have the disconnect code. Those systems are awesome. I wish I had one!

4) If they weren't comfortable meeting with me, then I'd ask the school to call a parent teacher meeting. I would not have gone into the meeting armed for bear, and slinging names. I'd have tried to have gone into the meeting, open to listening to them, about what they thought they could do, and their concerns, so they'd be open to listening to me, and mine.

#5) I'd definitely tell them, that if we caught him on the property w/o our invite, we'd call LE and have him escorted off.


I sympathize, greatly, with the family who lost their loved ones, I also feel for the parents whose son has done this. It's terrible and the boy is going to prison, if he recovers to that point. He was willing to kill himself over his obsession with her and she was willing to let him in b/c of her obsession with him. These were likely kids who didn't have a lot of friends, outside of that school, b/c they got disconnected from their old ones when they went to the Alt. School. Both families, I think, underestimated the relationship, and the kid's lengths that they'd go to, to keep seeing one another. There's likely some diagnoses here that we just will not know about. Diagnoses that caused impulsiveness, defiance, obsession, etc... in both kids.

Thank you. There's a lot for me to ponder in your post.

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[beandawgs]

Do you live in Virginia? I can’t speak for that state but in the state I live much of what you said is not the fact and you made statements of fact. Perhaps your opinion from your own experience?

Special education is governed by federal law which applies to ANY state in the union. There are many states that choose to farm out their high needs special ed kids to private schools - and this has been an area of contention argued in the federal court system. Some states want to manage these placements themselves. Its not an "opinion" but very much a fact - look at wrightslaw.com and you can learn a lot about special ed law and how it operates in the public school system. Do you know what LRE , FAPE, placement, IEP all mean? This girl was in one of the MOST restrictive environments in the school system. The only more restrictive you can get is a residential placement. Shoot, I was upset about my son being in a self contained class inside of a regular public school and fought, and successfully got him into a less restrictive environment. The school districts pay MEGA bucks to have kids in these kinds of placements and the kids don't go there unless there is a MOUNTAIN of documentation, and in my opinion, when its to the districts benefit to have them placed or you have an attorney parent, like this girl does. How do I know? I've lived and worked it.

 

[borndem]

I think it's possible that Mja used to go to school with them and is now in college, if what I am seeing online is correct.

I'm also going to point out that while I had been a troubled teen who was sent away for a bit, by the time I was 18 I not only had my head on straight, but was very good at guiding some of my wilder girlfriends and their parents realized this. I could see having a conversation with one of them about a troublesome boy (and I think I did on at least one occasion), because they knew I would have more influence over the girl than them.

Mja was two years older than the daughter, and possibly a positive influence. We also don't know that it was Buckley who initiated the conversation with Mja. It really could have been the other way around. At one point my senior year I caught one of my girlfriends tripping on acid. I took her and her new boyfriend aside and made it clear that this wasn't going to happen on my watch. I was close to her dad, not her mom. It turned out to just be a one-off with her, but I am pretty sure I would have gone to her dad had she continued to do drugs.

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bbm

My thoughts, too, vmmking -- She apparently is 18 y/o, and most 18-year-olds (not all -- I turned 18 in January of my senior year in HS -- children who turned 6 after October 15 of the school year had to wait till the next year to start 1st grade) are out of HS. Further, I can't see Buckley talking with a current student of her daughter about these things. JMO.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

BBM

I think handling that situation without triggering violence is easier said than done. You and I talked about this very early in post #42 before we knew about what kind of school it was or that the daughter was messed up too. At that point we thought the main problem was his Nazi viewpoint. I’m not sure if what I said then (quoted below) is even applicable...it sounds kind of naive with what we now know. I’m a firm believer in approaching volatile situations in a peaceful, calming way. I still think showing how much you care gets better results than alienation. If I knew that the boyfriend was capable of violence, I would tread very, very lightly. But sometimes decisive action is needed.

Buckley’s apparent goal was to protect her daughter from acquiring repugnant beliefs. I think that horse had already left the barn and her daughter was clearly part of the problem. It sounds as if Buckley felt that taking a public stand against Nazi beliefs was hugely important. Maybe she realized that her daughter was already on the “dark side” and all she could do is stand firm for her own values, no matter what. It’s impossible to second guess her decisions. Dying for what you believe is not the worst thing someone can do, although I doubt that was her intent, of course. I wish I had an answer. But I’m still on the side of a peaceful approach.

I think the only approach that would work is cultivating an extra close and understanding relationship with their daughter and counteracting his indoctrination over time, not in one intervention. Let her explain her new views, if she would admit them. Let him explain his views. Keep calm and keep lines of communication open...easier said than done! The Mom was asking about WWII videos they could show their daughter, so she realized that was needed. At what point she realized that, I’m not sure. I totally understand her sense of panic, but extreme action is just going to make a teen dig in their heels. I’m sure they had no idea that he would be so dangerous though. What a tragedy.

Thanks for bringing forward your earlier post.

Just such a horrible, horrible thing... The 10 yo boy, the other relatives in the house... No one should see their loved ones die like that. So many lives ruined.

I hope they are able to get the right counseling. They'll need PTSD therapy, as well as grief therapy, probably meds. Our family experienced a traumatic event, and we had a terrible time finding the right people to help us. There's not a lot of therapists doing good trauma/PTSD work.



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[borndem]

This is Buckley's daughter from a previous marriage? I didn't know women still hyphenated their name. This is so 70ish, maybe even late 60ish.

She was probably known professionally by her "Kuhn" name, so that may be why she used the hyphenated name -- thereby also including her husband's name. If so, I can see it. I'd prolly do the same thing. Just a thought.

 

[rsd1200]

Special education is governed by federal law which applies to ANY state in the union. There are many states that choose to farm out their high needs special ed kids to private schools - and this has been an area of contention argued in the federal court system. Some states want to manage these placements themselves. Its not an "opinion" but very much a fact - look at wrightslaw.com and you can learn a lot about special ed law and how it operates in the public school system. Do you know what LRE , FAPE, placement, IEP all mean? This girl was in one of the MOST restrictive environments in the school system. The only more restrictive you can get is a residential placement. Shoot, I was upset about my son being in a self contained class inside of a regular public school and fought, and successfully got him into a less restrictive environment. The school districts pay MEGA bucks to have kids in these kinds of placements and the kids don't go there unless there is a MOUNTAIN of documentation, and in my opinion, when its to the districts benefit to have them placed or you have an attorney parent, like this girl does. How do I know? I've lived and worked it.

Mine was in for two years and we hated it. It was terrible. Mine went back into reg public school thankfully.

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[Wyle_E_Coyote]

I don't know the circumstances surrounding why the girl was at that school to begin with - did her parents consent to placement there? My guess is that the parents were also naive about the types of kids in such a school - this is NOT the place where you ever want your child to be unless there is absolutely no choice. I don't know if the girl did something bad at her local school , I don't know. But I do know that I would never ever want my children to be around these types of kids at this age level. And yes, again, I speak from experience - my son was in a similar class in first grade , I've taught in one in middle school and my mom taught this class for over 20 years. You don't get into that type of school just because you have minor adjustment issues - those kids are deeply, deeply disturbed and if they haven't made it back to their regular campus by the time they are 16,17 that's just not good.

I don't think there's any way they could be naive about this school. Fairfax county has an outstanding and very proactive and progressive school system. There would have been a lot of intervention prior to her being placed there. There are a number of similar schools, serving similar students. Having been involved with Fairfax public schools, I have absolutely no doubt that the choice of Dominion was a joint decision between the district and the parents, with everyone thinking it was the best place for her to get the help she needed.

Crisis intervention, teens with emotional and behavioral problems, family services mandatory, daily counseling sessions... I can't believe they could be unaware of what the other students were like.

I do wonder about the girl's history. I can't imagine a relative having to take on the responsibility of raising a troubled teen, especially after this.



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