Verdict: GUILTY for both Millard and Smich of 1st degree murder #2

[canadiangirl]

Naw, I had a buddy that mixed morphine and alcohol every day until he died of an OD.

Oxy and alcohol doesn't make you sick, it makes you fully loaded.

MS and DM were into some ugly stuff. Once you get into pills and crack/meth, especially selling them, normally, you start losing a lot of friends.

Respectfully because you know of one person that didn't have this reaction, we're now discrediting also an addiction site?

 

[Mscree]

Respectfully because you know of one person that didn't have this reaction, we're now discrediting also an addiction site?

Respectfully people who are Chronic substance abusers tend to have a higher tolerance then the occasional user. smich was a daily user

 

[canadiangirl]

It was linked earlier in this thread by another poster. There was no reference if she wanted to go or not

Thank you very much this is exactly the post I was referring to thank you very much for this post Lauriej

I'm aware of the post, you said there was no reference if MM wanted to go to Calgary or not.
My link showed in testimony, it was stated MM did not want to go to Calgary.
That is all.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Respectfully because you know of one person that didn't have this reaction, we're now discrediting also an addiction site?

Addiction sites tend to be full of drama. I have seen more than one person drink and do pills. Trust me, getting sick is not an issue. People do it for fun and if it made you sick it wouldn't be much fun, wouldn't it?

Basically MS was high as a kite on the IT mission. Fully loaded and ready to go!

 

[canadiangirl]

Respectfully people who are Chronic substance abusers tend to have a higher tolerance then the occasional user. smich was a daily user

A daily user of? If he had to ask DM to bring him an orange guy, I would take that to mean he didn't have them in his possession to use daily.

 

[SnooperDuper]

A daily user of? If he had to ask DM to bring him an orange guy, I would take that to mean he didn't have them in his possession to use daily.

I take it to mean that DM was his dealer.

 

[RandomName479]

Respectfully because you know of one person that didn't have this reaction, we're now discrediting also an addiction site?

You can both be right. We do not have enough information to know how MS would be affected by the oxycodone.

Oxycodone (or any narcotic) has the potential to cause nausea, especially in opioid naïve individuals. Mixing it with another substance that has the potential for nausea/vomiting (like alcohol) could amplify this effect. However, if MS was using the narcotic regularly, he would not have experienced any nausea despite mixing it with alcohol....as people develop a tolerance to almost all side effects of the narcotics (except constipation....but that's a conversation for another day).

The dose was 60mg. Not the highest available dosage, but if he was opioid naïve, that is a very high dose. (to compare, one Oxycocet (Percocet) tablet contains 5mg oxycodone) I have many patients who take more than 240mg daily as they develop tolerance.

We have no information about MS being a chronic user....and no information about him being an occasional user.....so we do not have enough information to know beyond any doubt (reasonable or otherwise) how he would be affected.

 

[canadiangirl]

Well it goes towards the character of these guys. All we heard about in the trial was loads of pot. Pot, who really cares?

The fact is that both DM and MS were involved with the kind of ugly drugs that cause problems in the street and overdoses. Even among dealers, there is a a line...some drugs are higher penalty and higher problem. Sell some drugs and you lose a lot of respect. Anyone selling crack has to have the inner strength to show no compassion when someone begs and weeps for drugs. They have to stand there and say no and say I don't care what you do for the money but the money comes first. People on crack live on the edge and their situations are ugly and the dealer that sells to them is the ugliest of all.

I take it to mean that DM was his dealer.

So based on your posts, you don't think that DM controlled MS by using his drug addiction(s) to his advantage?

 

[SnooperDuper]

You can both be right. We do not have enough information to know how MS would be affected by the oxycodone.

Oxycodone (or any narcotic) has the potential to cause nausea, especially in opioid naïve individuals. Mixing it with another substance that has the potential for nausea/vomiting (like alcohol) could amplify this effect. However, if MS was using the narcotic regularly, he would not have experienced any nausea despite mixing it with alcohol....as people develop a tolerance to almost all side effects of the narcotics (except constipation....but that's a conversation for another day).

The dose was 60mg. Not the highest available dosage, but if he was opioid naïve, that is a very high dose. (to compare, one Oxycocet (Percocet) tablet contains 5mg oxycodone) I have many patients who take more than 240mg daily as they develop tolerance.

We have no information about MS being a chronic user....and no information about him being an occasional user.....so we do not have enough information to know beyond any doubt (reasonable or otherwise) how he would be affected.

Mixing opioids and alcohol is an incredibly common combo on the street, IMO. They are both depressants and go together like bread and butter.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

At some point doesn't one just have to accept the jury disagrees with your thoughts and quit trying to find reasons why they were wrong and the other opinion was right.

 

[SnooperDuper]

So based on your posts, you don't think that DM controlled MS by using his drug addiction(s) to his advantage?

I don't think you can control someone on opioids like you can control someone on crack. If DM didn't give MS oxy and he needed it, MS would just have to crawl away and deal with withdrawal. Drink. Hope to pass out. It's not like crack/meth where people are crazy motivated when confronted with withdrawal (which is the kind of thing MS was apparently dealing in).

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

People have posted countless times why certain evidence was allowed to be introduced by DMs lawyers. If one wants to disagree with it.. Fine, but the introduction of it has a ton of legal precedence which outweighs message board posters.

 

[Mscree]

I'm aware of the post, you said there was no reference if MM wanted to go to Calgary or not.
My link showed in testimony, it was stated MM did not want to go to Calgary.
That is all.

If you would like to show me the exact tweet, however the link you provided me goes to the beginning of the trial with each a link to the tweets from each reporter

 

[brightii]

For Sharlene Bosma, the "new normal" by Molly Hayes, The Hamilton Spectator

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6730565-for-sharlene-bosma-the-new-normal-/

' With the trial now over, there will surely be a void for the Bosma family, without the hectic ritual of court to focus on and as the dozens of friends and family who have surrounded her family each day go back to their own lives. But Sharlene says she has long been ready to move forward with hers as well.

"I don't love being constantly surrounded by people ... I need to retreat, I need my own space. To process information, I have to do it alone," she says, of finding relief in silence.

"It was Tim who was the social butterfly."

But she is grateful for the endless support she has had — not just from family and friends and her church community, but even from perfect strangers. She is uncomfortable with the attention, but recognizes how much Tim has come to mean to so many people. '

Just dropping by to share this news article. It is a must-read.

All MOO.

 

[canadiangirl]

If you would like to show me the exact tweet, however the link you provided me goes to the beginning of the trial with each a link to the tweets from each reporter

I posted the tweet number in my post along with the link

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TlebQlyw__2QSDhYkGxMU/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0
Tweet 4278

It was DM writing in letters to CN that suggested otherwise, and then NS ran with that
I don't believe MM was ever asked

 

[XiolaBlueX]

I don't think you can control someone on opioids like you can control someone on crack. If DM didn't give MS oxy and he needed it, MS would just have to crawl away and deal with withdrawal. Drink. Hope to pass out. It's not like crack/meth where people are crazy motivated when confronted with withdrawal (which is the kind of thing MS was apparently dealing in).

Respectfully, this is not always true whatsoever about being able to just sleep off or drink off opiate withdrawal. Take this from personal experience in this area.

I would say I think I do get your point though, in terms of how fast the peak be duration is for crack/coaching vs opiates/Oxys. IMO the desperation one feels with smoking crack cocaine for example can start coming within minutes of the last hit, whereas often the opiate user may have hours before their desperation starts really ramping up. Also, Crack pushes users more to a dark underbelly of society as it is obviously imo extra stigmatized, (and always illegal) and involves having to be away from people to use it and hide its use. So I do find that the lifestyle itself can pull people in a more obvious way to the point of no return vs a pill abuser who can be more discreet by far when using.

However opiate withdrawal does not just go away on its own and it is extremely physically and psychologically addictive.

I have personally known previously outstanding people getting into opiate pills eg. doctors, nurses, end up stealing from patients, Using at work, lying and committing fraud, or getting to the point where they never had a speeding ticket but find themselves seriously contemplating robbing a pharmacy for a fix. Complete desperation.....

Sorry if too off topic, I'm behind on threads and just thought I'd give respond to OPs post
IMO

 

[palisadesk]

At some point doesn't one just have to accept the jury disagrees with your thoughts and quit trying to find reasons why they were wrong and the other opinion was right.

I have not read the entire thread, so may have missed something. But, what I hear people saying, who feel that M2 would have been a more just verdict for MS, is not that "the jury is wrong" but something like, "I feel, based on how I understand the evidence - which is admittedly less completely than the jury, who saw and heard all testimony and not just abbreviated tweets and summaries -- that M2 would have been the most reasonable conclusion based on the evidence."

We are all basing our conclusions on the information we have been privy to, and the jury has been privy to a good deal more. So, while we may be pretty sure what we would decide IF we were on that jury panel, we cannot really know, because we did not have access to as much information as they did, nor did we have the advantage of the shared discussion and understandings that the jurors arrived at.

I did not hear anyone say they felt the jury was wrong. I didn't follow all the evidence myself, but am happy to defer in this case to the jury's decision. If I had parsed it all out for myself (to the degree possible, without complete access) I might feel differently, but I have no reason to think so. However, my experience in other areas where decisions are made collectively based on empirical evidence is that conscientious and reasonable people can differ, with integrity, on what the facts and evidence suggest. I believe we see some manifestations of that here.

And, it is perfectly OK!

 

[SnooperDuper]

Respectfully, this is not always true whatsoever about being able to just sleep off or drink off opiate withdrawal. Take this from personal experience in this area.

I would say I think I do get your point though, in terms of how fast the peak be duration is for crack/coaching vs opiates/Oxys. IMO the desperation one feels with smoking crack cocaine for example can start coming within minutes of the last hit, whereas often the opiate user may have hours before their desperation starts really ramping up. Also, Crack pushes users more to a dark underbelly of society as it is obviously imo extra stigmatized, (and always illegal) and involves having to be away from people to use it and hide its use. So I do find that the lifestyle itself can pull people in a more obvious way to the point of no return vs a pill abuser who can be more discreet by far when using.

However opiate withdrawal does not just go away on its own and it is extremely physically and psychologically addictive.

I have personally known previously outstanding people getting into opiate pills eg. doctors, nurses, end up stealing from patients, Using at work, lying and committing fraud, or getting to the point where they never had a speeding ticket but find themselves seriously contemplating robbing a pharmacy for a fix. Complete desperation.....

Sorry if too off topic, I'm behind on threads and just thought I'd give respond to OPs post
IMO

The thing about MS being a crack dealer is you have to be a certain type of person to do that successfully.

You have to be dominant and controlling, and totally cold-hearted. Your clients are a tough crowd, emotionally labile, dangerous. MS would have had to have stood up to that and dominated.

I don't think he was that weak a character as compared to DM. If he was strong and dominant enough to sell crack, he was more controlling in his relationships than people have implied.

 

[SnooperDuper]

I have personally known previously outstanding people getting into opiate pills eg. doctors, nurses, end up stealing from patients, Using at work, lying and committing fraud, or getting to the point where they never had a speeding ticket but find themselves seriously contemplating robbing a pharmacy for a fix. Complete desperation.....

Just going to add...

And in contrast, crack is the kind of drug that will have two people pimp a third, spontaneously, so they can all get high.

This is the game that MS was allegedly a part of. It is is very predatory.

 

[XiolaBlueX]

Addiction sites tend to be full of drama. I have seen more than one person drink and do pills. Trust me, getting sick is not an issue. People do it for fun and if it made you sick it wouldn't be much fun, wouldn't it?

Basically MS was high as a kite on the IT mission. Fully loaded and ready to go!

Alcohol can make people nauseous and vomit, oxy/opiate use can can make people nauseous and vomit
Of course mixing alcohol and oxys/opiates somebody will be just as likely to vomit, and often moreso IMO.

It is a common side effect of opiates/morphine/heroin. People will throw up and just take more if possible or reingest what they lost. (Gross I know) Often rebound headaches and nausea from the drugs. And not being able to keep ones eyes awake "nodding off"


IMO