Victim - Melissa Barthelemy

[CriminalMinds]

How common is it for a SK to text message a victims family (sister Amanda)?

"The killer always phoned in the evenings, spoke briefly and in a low voice -- and only to Amanda. He calmly spewed taunts and allegations." He sent text messages.

it would have to be a "newer" phenomena, since texting came into play around '96 or '97--

 

[PreciousDust]

it would have to be a "newer" phenomena, since texting came into play around '96 or '97--

Wow, where did you hear that?

 

[CriminalMinds]

Wow, where did you hear that?

neat-I just finished reading the thread and saw that you posted a link to the german thing

 

[PreciousDust]

neat-I just finished reading the thread and saw that you posted a link to the german thing

Heh. Here I did all this difficult research about when text messaging came into being (really, before I sleuthed it, I thought it had been around since the caveman), and I thought you were trying to steal my thunder. But we both knew the truth, independently (it can happen).

 

[fred&edna]

In the library with Colonel Mustard and a candlestick.

Do you have a link to back up this scandalous claim?!

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

Do you have a link to back up this scandalous claim?!

isnt that something that I would ask?

 

[PreciousDust]

Do you have a link to back up this scandalous claim?!

Is this proof enough for you? All the elements of BDSM are evident here - pain (ouch!), tactile kinkiness (fur), asphyxiation devices (pillows). But please - it's a holiday, let's not dwell on what deviants do. Not tonight.

 

[Tugela]

she was trying to get home--she did NOT have another appt scheduled--I would agree with PB that this clearly points to a stalker, although where I differ(unless PB also thinks this) is that he is an "area stalker" as opposed to a "girl stalker", meaning it's the sites he patrols, and not necessarily fixed on the girls specifically(unless you believe atlantic city and gb4 are tied to same sk, which would make him "girl specific", and leads us back to an original poi)

And you know this how? There are no records of her appointments as far as I know. You are making an assumption based on what someone else said she wanted to do and where she was when she said it. As I said before, escorts use different phones. Some for personal use, some for business use. You don't know why she was there at that point in time.

 

[Tugela]

CM: He picks up on a girl in his comfort zone, but obviously he follows them from there also out of the comfort zone. It's kind of both. Otherwise it would be hard to explain why MW, a girl living in NYC disappeared from LI. So, I agree, but with the extension that, if a girl catches his attention in this area, he is following her.

On the other subject: Debasing only black women. An SK who hates women of his own ethnicity hates usually also all other women. He only doesn't come in contact with so many. Unless he gets an additional trigger, for example a woman of another ethnicity rejects him. Them it's "women hater" plus "rejection" and suddenly he can go for women of other ethnicities. Just my opinion about the possibility. Bernard Jackson developed along that line if memory serves.

You are making this too complicated. The killer doesnt have to stalk these women, they are escorts, they will come to him. The dead have nothing in common, other than being escorts, so they are being chosen at random. The simplest way for him to do it is to call them or contact them by whatever means they use for that purpose. After that, all he has to do is choose a suitable location with the right conditions and they will walk right into his trap. There is no stalking, he doesn't need to do that, in fact it is counter productive to his purposes (since escorts do not wear a giant scarlet letter and could be anyone).

 

[ps149]

You are making this too complicated. The killer doesnt have to stalk these women, they are escorts, they will come to him. The dead have nothing in common, other than being escorts, so they are being chosen at random. The simplest way for him to do it is to call them or contact them by whatever means they use for that purpose. After that, all he has to do is choose a suitable location with the right conditions and they will walk right into his trap. There is no stalking, he doesn't need to do that, in fact it is counter productive to his purposes (since escorts do not wear a giant scarlet letter and could be anyone).

100% I agree with you. Otherwise, the odds are that out of the four GB4 victims one of them would not have been an escort if he was simply a stalker who chose his victims by looks alone (here in NY we have many young women who dress more like prostitutes than actual prostitutes dress themselves).

No doubt they were all escorts because it was easy to lure them in. Either they came to his location or he was invited by them to go to their locations.

One big WHAT IF??? that I am feelin' lately is the concept how maybe, just maybe, these murders may not have been opportunity murders of a SK for the love of it (the way SK's need to kill). WHAT IF each of these women was paid big $$ to be a guest or a date at a BDSM party and things just got out of hand (accidentally or purposely planned as if it were a part of a WOW FACTOR for a BDSM performer, coach or instructor)?

 

[Peter Brendt]

So, the taunting contact tends to make him more a sociopath or psychopath or is there another "path" that fits?

And the fact that there is such a low percentage of killers who do this type of thing (specifically family contact) makes this killer somewhat unique. (Sadly, I suppose that suggesting he is unique strokes his ego uke

Would most people find him arrogant/egotistical in his average daily life??

Psychopathic SKs can come in many forms. From narcissistic ones (the Alcala type) to the sexual predator type (for example Ridgway) to the mission driven type (for example Glaze), just to name some. But to make it not too easy, for example mission-driven killers can come as delusional type, as psychopathic or even a sociopathic type as well. The delusional mission-driven type is like Mullin for example or in it's extremer form like Chase, the Vampire of Sacramento if you have heard of him. However, LISK, while showing some aspects of mission-driven behavior is too high organized for a delusional type.
The mission-driven psychopathic type can pop up as self-justifying type, like Billy Glaze, for basically formed in his mind an opinion, that all native American women should be raped and killed for ethnic reasons and therefore justified what he did with that mission. The extreme form is Mohammed Atta, I call him "the terrorist, who never got laid". Kind of a Black Paladin syndrome. His whole life was built on the extreme religious model, his father had imprinted on him and thus, he was never successful with women. So at some point, he corrected that picture and told everyone "bah women, I have no time for it, I'm a holy warrior". And at some point, that led him right into the WTC.
And we have the sociopathic version of the same picture. Colder, more controlled, without the direct rage, that fuels the psychopath. He is even more manipulative but less prone to direct action. He pushes others forward to execute that action, he dreams of. The fantasies of mission-driven sociopaths are big and they circle around power as ultimate safety measure. The logical end is normally disaster, because the "safety measure" is not achievable without killing everybody who is perceived as "different". Osama bin Laden, the small boy who learned helplessness when bullied as kid in school and learned to use religion as weapon, that's a good example. Or Adolf Hitler, the gas-victim from WWI and painter without success.
And to make the point clear, I talked here only about the mission-driven types. There are so many more. The problem can't even be described by just a single handy label, much more it can't be solved that way.

With LISK we talk, IMO, either about the psychopathic version or the sociopathic whose dream lack from followers. In the first case, he will appear in daily life rather meek, avoiding to pull too much attention. In the second version (which I suspect), he will be good at what he does in his daily job, but he will appear more effective than arrogant. He will be able to organize things, for example small work parties and he will be in situations, he has to lead people, clear in his instructions and a straight forward leader. He would be in both cases highly manipulative and take care, that people like him.

 

[Peter Brendt]

it would have to be a "newer" phenomena, since texting came into play around '96 or '97--

I don't think, the significant point is texting. SKs do the same things since centuries, only the technical possibilities change. The guy, who talked people into suicides in chat rooms, he would have done similar things in a workhouse in 19th century. The technology gave him a possibility to do it from home via internet, so he used that one. So, yes, no texting before 1996, but then, there was always the letter thing available.

 

[CriminalMinds]

And you know this how? There are no records of her appointments **as far as I know**.

exactly--as far as YOU know

from her family member, the leo was the only appt scheduled(it's possible maybe she was to meet him again later)-but no diff person was scheduled

 

[CriminalMinds]

... You are making an assumption based on what someone else said she wanted to do and where she was when she said it.

NO-*YOU* are making the assumption that *I* am making one

 

[fred&edna]

Psychopathic SKs can come in many forms. From narcissistic ones (the Alcala type) to the sexual predator type (for example Ridgway) to the mission driven type (for example Glaze), just to name some. But to make it not too easy, for example mission-driven killers can come as delusional type, as psychopathic or even a sociopathic type as well. The delusional mission-driven type is like Mullin for example or in it's extremer form like Chase, the Vampire of Sacramento if you have heard of him. However, LISK, while showing some aspects of mission-driven behavior is too high organized for a delusional type.
The mission-driven psychopathic type can pop up as self-justifying type, like Billy Glaze, for basically formed in his mind an opinion, that all native American women should be raped and killed for ethnic reasons and therefore justified what he did with that mission. The extreme form is Mohammed Atta, I call him "the terrorist, who never got laid". Kind of a Black Paladin syndrome. His whole life was built on the extreme religious model, his father had imprinted on him and thus, he was never successful with women. So at some point, he corrected that picture and told everyone "bah women, I have no time for it, I'm a holy warrior". And at some point, that led him right into the WTC.
And we have the sociopathic version of the same picture. Colder, more controlled, without the direct rage, that fuels the psychopath. He is even more manipulative but less prone to direct action. He pushes others forward to execute that action, he dreams of. The fantasies of mission-driven sociopaths are big and they circle around power as ultimate safety measure. The logical end is normally disaster, because the "safety measure" is not achievable without killing everybody who is perceived as "different". Osama bin Laden, the small boy who learned helplessness when bullied as kid in school and learned to use religion as weapon, that's a good example. Or Adolf Hitler, the gas-victim from WWI and painter without success.
And to make the point clear, I talked here only about the mission-driven types. There are so many more. The problem can't even be described by just a single handy label, much more it can't be solved that way.

With LISK we talk, IMO, either about the psychopathic version or the sociopathic whose dream lack from followers. In the first case, he will appear in daily life rather meek, avoiding to pull too much attention. In the second version (which I suspect), he will be good at what he does in his daily job, but he will appear more effective than arrogant. He will be able to organize things, for example small work parties and he will be in situations, he has to lead people, clear in his instructions and a straight forward leader. He would be in both cases highly manipulative and take care, that people like him.

The uniqueness factor of the killer contacting the family REALLY intrigues me. It is SO very risky on his part. I am wondering if this factor could somehow "specifically" narrow the suspect list in some manner, although I'm sure it doesn't really.

 

[fred&edna]

With LISK we talk, IMO, either about the psychopathic version or the sociopathic whose dream lack from followers. In the first case, he will appear in daily life rather meek, avoiding to pull too much attention. In the second version (which I suspect), he will be good at what he does in his daily job, but he will appear more effective than arrogant. He will be able to organize things, for example small work parties and he will be in situations, he has to lead people, clear in his instructions and a straight forward leader. He would be in both cases highly manipulative and take care, that people like him.

TT does fit the "organizing" part, at least with his organization of hooker parties and I'm sure he was well-liked by his buddies.

I'm not sure I want to say he is my POI, especially since he seemed to just be "importing women from Canada to Buffalo" and there's no evidence to say he imported them to LI. But, he kinda/sorta fits your profile. I wonder if he's left-handed?

 

[Peter Brendt]

The uniqueness factor of the killer contacting the family REALLY intrigues me. It is SO very risky on his part. I am wondering if this factor could somehow "specifically" narrow the suspect list in some manner, although I'm sure it doesn't really.

Since it happened only in one case, not all four, we know, it isn't part of his ritual. It is nothing, he needs to do. Which still makes me think, it was kind of a counter measure. So, maybe he had reason to believe, he had pulled attention, even he hadn't. Like he had overestimated LE or something and felt now, he had to throw some kind of wrench in their gear.

 

[NoviceSleuth]

How common is it for a SK to text message a victims family (sister Amanda)?

"The killer always phoned in the evenings, spoke briefly and in a low voice -- and only to Amanda. He calmly spewed taunts and allegations." He sent text messages.

Does anyone have any info on these texts to Amanda - What was said, how many did she receive, when were they made, were they saved, did LE investigate them? If there was a discussion regarding these texts, I missed it.

The first and only time I heard about Amanda getting texts, in addition to the phone calls, was in that article.

Any info? Thanks!lease:

 

[fred&edna]

Since it happened only in one case, not all four, we know, it isn't part of his ritual. It is nothing, he needs to do. Which still makes me think, it was kind of a counter measure. So, maybe he had reason to believe, he had pulled attention, even he hadn't. Like he had overestimated LE or something and felt now, he had to throw some kind of wrench in their gear.

Maybe that was his thinking. The first contact with Amanda was a week after MB was last seen. ** A counter measure would fit the "control/management of situation" aspect.

I was thinking in a different direction... that maybe MB (based on her mom's words of being a bit of a "spitfire") really affected him. I mean, she was I believe already dead when he made his call but that wasn't enough. I was thinking that maybe he had some sort of additional desire, killing her wasn't enough... he wanted to hurt her more. Even killing another victim wouldn't satisfy... therefore it was somewhat "personal".

 

[Tugela]

exactly--as far as YOU know

from her family member, the leo was the only appt scheduled(it's possible maybe she was to meet him again later)-but no diff person was scheduled

You are not listening to me. What these women are doing is semi-illegal. People doing illegal things don't keep detailed records of them doing illegal things or when they will be doing them. It doesn't happen. These women would want to keep that part of their lives secret, from LE, from friends and especially from family. They will not be collecting data for their memoirs.

Neither LE or the family would know for sure exactly what she was doing, unless they were her pimp (and I really doubt that is the case). Even her pimp (if she had one) could not be sure she was not doing work on the side without their knowledge. Any records she had about that would have been kept on her person, probably in the form of a smart phone. And that would have dissappeared with her.

LE might be able to piece together some picture of what she was up to by backtracking on what phone records they can find, but it would be a very incomplete picture. In this case they could probably track down the last person who called her as a client she saw, but, as I pointed out, that is NOT necessarily her last client.

What you guys seem to be suggesting is that she was at the station, all packed and ready to go home, in the middle of the teeming masses, when she got plucked out by some anonymous stalker against her will with no one noticing. That sounds highly unlikely.

This is the reality. She was an escort. She was killed by a killer of escorts. People who kill escorts get the escorts to come to them, not the other way around. If the station was the last place she was known to be at, she was either there to meet someone, or she was there to go to meet someone.