Victim - Melissa Barthelemy

[Tugela]

NO-*YOU* are making the assumption that *I* am making one

You were personally there at the station when she said it, so you know exactly what she was doing and when?

If not, then I am sorry to say, but you are making an assumption. You are connecting dots which do not necessarily connect, because you don't want to consider the possibility that there might be other dots.

 

[Peter Brendt]

You are not listening to me. What these women are doing is semi-illegal. People doing illegal things don't keep detailed records of them doing illegal things or when they will be doing them. It doesn't happen. These women would want to keep that part of their lives secret, from LE, from friends and especially from family. They will not be collecting data for their memoirs.

Neither LE or the family would know for sure exactly what she was doing, unless they were her pimp (and I really doubt that is the case). Even her pimp (if she had one) could not be sure she was not doing work on the side without their knowledge. Any records she had about that would have been kept on her person, probably in the form of a smart phone. And that would have dissappeared with her.

LE might be able to piece together some picture of what she was up to by backtracking on what phone records they can find, but it would be a very incomplete picture. In this case they could probably track down the last person who called her as a client she saw, but, as I pointed out, that is NOT necessarily her last client.

What you guys seem to be suggesting is that she was at the station, all packed and ready to go home, in the middle of the teeming masses, when she got plucked out by some anonymous stalker against her will with no one noticing. That sounds highly unlikely.

This is the reality. She was an escort. She was killed by a killer of escorts. People who kill escorts get the escorts to come to them, not the other way around. If the station was the last place she was known to be at, she was either there to meet someone, or she was there to go to meet someone.

Well, Ridgway, Rifkin, Bundy, the Atlantic City Killer, The Atlantic City Slasher, Jack the Ripper and a lot of other hunters of prostitutes would probably tell you other wise. Unless they are too happy about people falling for the obviously wrong.
You just claim, there is only one reason for MBB to be at that bus terminal. Well, given the hour of the night, there was not much chance to go anywhere "to meet someone". And of course, you assume, she lied when she said on the phone "all she wants is to go home". Yeah, and then your argumentation leaves entirely the realm of technical possibilities by implicating, those girls have unlimited options to hide their phone records. Nice. Basically you are down now to the level of victim bashing and ignoring all the details, just to make your theory possible. Okam's razor gives a pretty clear answer to that.

 

[Just K]

Just want to add: Sometimes when someone says, "I just want or wanted to come home." It is said out of frustration. And the actual situation that they find themselves in is preventing them from doing that one thing that they want/wanted to do. Because MBB supposedly was robbed, she might have been stranded. She probably had to make one more appointment just to get money to get home. She may have decided to meet a client or go to a BDSM party that she had chosen not to see/or do. Being desperate she might have gone against her gut feelings.

Just because we say we want something does not mean that it can happen when we want it. IMO, of course.

 

[hawkshaw]

You know the saying when you ASSUME? Fred & Edna said "t whe killer phoned.." How do you know it was the killer? Some of you are assuming it is a serial killer. How do you know that? I am talking about someone that takes delight in killing prostitues. You don't really know that do you?
e
You also know that former PC Dormer said there is no Jack the Ripper with a bloody knife going around killing people. Why would he say that so soon into the investigation? Why would any ranking cop say such a thing unless he knew, or thought he knew something otherwise? He also said SG died from an accidental drowning and while running away her bi-polar condition caused her to take some of her clothes off AND went further to say the clothes could have come off by the brush and bramble while do running. He even said she may have died from drowning. We also know the ME has given no cause of death.

We also know that Det.Stephan gave the impression that on his own accord he wrote a letter to Newsday that he heard the 911 call and could find no evidence ofSG acting as though her life was in danger. Why would he do that on his own. Det.Stephan is a veteran detective. I ask again,why would he do that? Keep in mind the SCPD refuses to release the content of the tape. But the detective thought it was appropriate to share this very 'confidential' information with the public. More curious is why didn't anyone in the PD attempt to refute that?

 

[fred&edna]

You know the saying when you ASSUME? Fred & Edna said "t whe killer phoned.." How do you know it was the killer? Some of you are assuming it is a serial killer. How do you know that? I am talking about someone that takes delight in killing prostitues. You don't really know that do you?
e
You also know that former PC Dormer said there is no Jack the Ripper with a bloody knife going around killing people. Why would he say that so soon into the investigation? Why would any ranking cop say such a thing unless he knew, or thought he knew something otherwise? He also said SG died from an accidental drowning and while running away her bi-polar condition caused her to take some of her clothes off AND went further to say the clothes could have come off by the brush and bramble while do running. He even said she may have died from drowning. We also know the ME has given no cause of death.

We also know that Det.Stephan gave the impression that on his own accord he wrote a letter to Newsday that he heard the 911 call and could find no evidence ofSG acting as though her life was in danger. Why would he do that on his own. Det.Stephan is a veteran detective. I ask again,why would he do that? Keep in mind the SCPD refuses to release the content of the tape. But the detective thought it was appropriate to share this very 'confidential' information with the public. More curious is why didn't anyone in the PD attempt to refute that?

Funny, I was thinking nearly the same thing!

We all assume many things... whether it was the killer who contacted the family and JTerry. Or whether... MBB was actually headed home or to visit another client. Or whether... JB attended West Islip.

I think that is what WS is about. We aren't detectives (well, I'm not... and I'm ASSUMING most of the WS participants are not as well). We take news reports and clues (rumored, from FB, from UG, the gossipy police officer, where ever/whom ever) and form opinions, thoughts, ideas... post it here and discuss, slam, or support each other.

That's what I'm ASSuming, anyway


** Why Dormer suggested that SG's pants fell off... I have no idea. AND why no one refuted the Detectives' impression of the 911 call... I have no idea. I called Dormer a nincompoop once, cause I made an assumption.

 

[LR1]

Well, Ridgway, Rifkin, Bundy, the Atlantic City Killer, The Atlantic City Slasher, Jack the Ripper and a lot of other hunters of prostitutes would probably tell you other wise. Unless they are too happy about people falling for the obviously wrong.
You just claim, there is only one reason for MBB to be at that bus terminal. Well, given the hour of the night, there was not much chance to go anywhere "to meet someone". And of course, you assume, she lied when she said on the phone "all she wants is to go home". Yeah, and then your argumentation leaves entirely the realm of technical possibilities by implicating, those girls have unlimited options to hide their phone records. Nice. Basically you are down now to the level of victim bashing and ignoring all the details, just to make your theory possible. Okam's razor gives a pretty clear answer to that.

I hate to quote such an ugly and spitefull comment but I feel the accusations of victim bashing is totally uncalled for. The only bashing I see is of other members when they don't fall in line with our way of thinking. so we're sardonic in our responses to those members and cite multiple cases thinking this somehow makes us the all knowing expert on such cases. its a long running theme with certain members and its getting old. having said all that Tugela has made a lot of sense in this thread in the last few days. I'll take common sense over pseudo psychological ramblings any day of the week.

 

[To Kill a Mockingbird]

You know the saying when you ASSUME? Fred & Edna said "t whe killer phoned.." How do you know it was the killer? Some of you are assuming it is a serial killer. How do you know that? I am talking about someone that takes delight in killing prostitues. You don't really know that do you?
e
You also know that former PC Dormer said there is no Jack the Ripper with a bloody knife going around killing people. Why would he say that so soon into the investigation? Why would any ranking cop say such a thing unless he knew, or thought he knew something otherwise? He also said SG died from an accidental drowning and while running away her bi-polar condition caused her to take some of her clothes off AND went further to say the clothes could have come off by the brush and bramble while do running. He even said she may have died from drowning. We also know the ME has given no cause of death.

We also know that Det.Stephan gave the impression that on his own accord he wrote a letter to Newsday that he heard the 911 call and could find no evidence ofSG acting as though her life was in danger. Why would he do that on his own. Det.Stephan is a veteran detective. I ask again,why would he do that? Keep in mind the SCPD refuses to release the content of the tape. But the detective thought it was appropriate to share this very 'confidential' information with the public. More curious is why didn't anyone in the PD attempt to refute that?

i would love to have some beers with
det. stephan, pc dormer, stuart cameron, john mallia, dominick vallone
and det. jacobs. just to hear them talk.

 

[fred&edna]

You know the saying when you ASSUME? Fred & Edna said "t whe killer phoned.." How do you know it was the killer? Some of you are assuming it is a serial killer. How do you know that? I am talking about someone that takes delight in killing prostitues. You don't really know that do you?

Someone made calls/sent text messages to MB's family. IF it wasn't the killer then... who?? Did someone other than the killer happen to find MB's phone and decide to taunt her family... is that a more "logical" assumption??

 

[Tugela]

Well, Ridgway, Rifkin, Bundy, the Atlantic City Killer, The Atlantic City Slasher, Jack the Ripper and a lot of other hunters of prostitutes would probably tell you other wise. Unless they are too happy about people falling for the obviously wrong.
You just claim, there is only one reason for MBB to be at that bus terminal. Well, given the hour of the night, there was not much chance to go anywhere "to meet someone". And of course, you assume, she lied when she said on the phone "all she wants is to go home". Yeah, and then your argumentation leaves entirely the realm of technical possibilities by implicating, those girls have unlimited options to hide their phone records. Nice. Basically you are down now to the level of victim bashing and ignoring all the details, just to make your theory possible. Okam's razor gives a pretty clear answer to that.

It is "victim bashing" because its a reasonable alternative to what you are suggesting??? That is not much of a way to conduct a debate. I am sorry that someone has a different opinion from you, but you don't need to resort to accusations of "victim bashing" to win your argument.

I really think you need to study what escorts actually do and how they do it before postulating theories.

The phrase "all she wants is to go home" in english is future tense, in other words it does not mean what she is doing at that moment, but what she would like to do.

Correct me if I mistaken, but those SKs you mentioned targeted streetwalkers, not escorts. Streetwalkers operate differently in that they walk the streets/bars soliciting clients. Those victims were picked up randomly while doing their business and were killed afterwards. How does this support your stalking theory, when in fact they were not stalked at all?

Escorts do NOT walk the streets or solicit in public places. Meetings with their clients are arranged through a combination of newspaper/internet adds and emails/phones, pretty much all of which is done through fake names and anonymous accounts. Most of these girls are from out of the area working sporadically, there is no way to track them, so how is he supposed to stalk them? Just hang around some random motel/bus station and hope they show up for some reason, out of a city of 5 million? What kind of strategy is that when he can simply call them and have them come to a place where he can abduct and kill them?

People like Ridgeway etc didn't kill all the girls they met up with, they only killed when they had the urge and whoever got in their car when they had that urge wound up dead. There was no stalking.

 

[Tugela]

You know the saying when you ASSUME? Fred & Edna said "t whe killer phoned.." How do you know it was the killer? Some of you are assuming it is a serial killer. How do you know that? I am talking about someone that takes delight in killing prostitues. You don't really know that do you?
e
You also know that former PC Dormer said there is no Jack the Ripper with a bloody knife going around killing people. Why would he say that so soon into the investigation? Why would any ranking cop say such a thing unless he knew, or thought he knew something otherwise? He also said SG died from an accidental drowning and while running away her bi-polar condition caused her to take some of her clothes off AND went further to say the clothes could have come off by the brush and bramble while do running. He even said she may have died from drowning. We also know the ME has given no cause of death.

We also know that Det.Stephan gave the impression that on his own accord he wrote a letter to Newsday that he heard the 911 call and could find no evidence ofSG acting as though her life was in danger. Why would he do that on his own. Det.Stephan is a veteran detective. I ask again,why would he do that? Keep in mind the SCPD refuses to release the content of the tape. But the detective thought it was appropriate to share this very 'confidential' information with the public. More curious is why didn't anyone in the PD attempt to refute that?

And you are making many assumptions there, clearly predicated on your apparent dislike of those individuals involved. You are reading motives into those acts where there is no evidence beyond your personal opinion, and that, my friend, is assumption.

 

[Theforeigner]

Does anyone have any info on these texts to Amanda - What was said, how many did she receive, when were they made, were they saved, did LE investigate them? If there was a discussion regarding these texts, I missed it.

The first and only time I heard about Amanda getting texts, in addition to the phone calls, was in that article.

Any info? Thanks!lease:

This is what I have on the killers contact with victims relatives etc, nothing specific on textmessages though.
It is from the MB Timeline thread:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159991&highlight=timeline


The seven Jul/Aug 2009 phonecalls, made by the killer to Melissa's little sister Amanda.
Quotes:

According to newsreports, there were seven calls in all.
The caller I.D. displayed the number of Melissa’s missing cellphone
The killer always phoned in the evenings,
The killer always spoke for less than three minutes.
In all phonecalls the caller only wanted to talk to Melissa Barthelemy's little sister Amanda.
One time MB's mother answered, and the killer hung up as soon as he heard her voice.
Whoever was calling knew what Amanda looked like.
Police traced some of the calls to midtown Manhattan; Times Square, and Madison Square Garden, and another to Massapequa.
The killer sounded like an "older white guy"
Authorities tell CBS News he's likely white, between 25 and 40, is intelligent and street-smart
The killers voice was self-assured, a low voice, calmly mocking MB's sister.
"He was calm, in control," "He knew what he was doing." Amanda says.
"The voice on the other end was calm and bland, and never yelled or laughed" her mother, Lynn Barthelemy, said.
The killers was vulgar, mocking and insulting, according to the dead woman's mother, Lynn Barthelemy.
''If you accept it was the killer calling, he certainly had feelings of anger towards prostitutes.'' Mr. Cohen, Lynn Barthelemy's lawyer, said.

The calls abruptly stopped in August 2009 after a Buffalo TV station revealed their existence.


2009 calls from the killer, using MB's cell phone.

7 calls were made, Belowe are the 4 known dates, the last 3 calls has not been disclosed):


Thurs July 16, 2009: first call
Sun July 19, 2009:
Thurs July 23, 2009
Wed Aug 26, 2009: last call ( 01:00 am, lasted ca 40 seconds ) traced to the Times Square area.



SK Phonecalls content:

Thise are quotes from some of the phonecalls:

“Is this Melissa’s little sister?”

“I hear you’re a half-breed.”

'Do you know what your sister is doing? She's a *advertiser censored*.' (1st call according to LB's atty Steve Cohen)

“Are you gonna be a *advertiser censored* like your sister?”

"Do you think you'll ever see to her again?," .... "You won't. I killed her," (after having sex with her, he claimed Aug. 26, 2009, 1AM )
In the final call, the man described in graphic detail to the victim's sister what he had done sexually to Barthelemy, Cohen said.

And according to LB's atty Steve Cohen, in Dec 2011 48 Hours:

The killer also said that he know where Amanda lives and that he might come after her.

and that; "The killer said sexually exposit things as to what he had done to Melissa, and he said sexually

exposit things as to what he was going to do to Amanda"



Melissa's boyfriend, Johnny Terry also recived several phoncalls, probably, from the killer

1.According to Melissa's boyfriend, Johnny Terry, he too recieved taunting calls from someone he described as a "white guy".

2.Terry received over thirty phone calls during an eight month period, the caller mentions tattoos. Terry is quoted as saying, “He was threatening me. He said you liked to do some crazy stuff with Melissa. I know where you be at. Most of the time he seemed drunk. He knew who I was. He knew I had tattoos on my back.” One of the phones used to make these calls was a throw-away phone registered to Mickey Mouse.

3.Earlier that evening (July 12, 2009), the blond beauty told her boyfriend that she might be going to Long Island, a frequent haunt of hers. She regularly hung out there with a girlfriend who also worked as an online escort, as well as at the home of a regular client. Her boyfriend said he would oftentimes pick her up from the john's house."She would go to Long Island a lot," said her boyfriend Johnny Terry, who spoke exclusively with The Daily Beast. "She had some older man she was chummy with."Terry, who law-enforcement sources say was Barthelemy's pimp, said she was very secretive about her plans that night and declined an offer for a ride. "This time she said no," said Terry, who denies that he was her pimp. "I woke up in the morning and she wasn't there."



Additional info:
The NYPD was able to trace the last two calls to the Madison Square Garden and Times Square area.

They traced a second phone, that belonged to her ( Melissa), to an ex-con who said he picked it up after a tussle between hookers in Times Square orchestrated by a pimp.

 

[Justiceforever]

TF Great job! Please consider sharing your skills on the Jennings 8 thread. lease:

 

[Peter Brendt]

After two years of looking at the "Homicidal John" -> no result, even the first thing LE did, was checking phone records.
Saying "She was an escort, she was killed by a hunter of escorts" is no bashing of the victims, unless one denies to ignore the obvious next logical conclusion which would be to put the responsibility for their deaths to their life style.
To construct a theory on one victim by ignoring the known facts and make others up and ignore the other three victims entirely is now a valid theory.
To say, things are not that easy and show examples from other cases is now spiteful.
So fine, this will take decades if not longer. Have fun, but excuse me, I have other work to do.

 

[hawkshaw]

My 'ASSUME' Post was meant for ALL of us, including ME. My dislke for SCPD is well known. That is why I posted it so the readers can take it into account when reading my theories. All I am doing is offering another perspective on the investigation. I may be 180 wrong on it, but that is my theory.

 

[fred&edna]

My 'ASSUME' Post was meant for ALL of us, including ME. My dislke for SCPD is well known. That is why I posted it so the readers can take it into account when reading my theories. All I am doing is offering another perspective on the investigation. I may be 180 wrong on it, but that is my theory.

You derailed the topic because of your own agenda. Shame on you. :notgood:

 

[ktgirl]

This is what I have on the killers contact with victims relatives etc, nothing specific on textmessages though.
It is from the MB Timeline thread:

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159991&highlight=timeline


The seven Jul/Aug 2009 phonecalls, made by the killer to Melissa's little sister Amanda.
Quotes:

According to newsreports, there were seven calls in all.
The caller I.D. displayed the number of Melissa’s missing cellphone
The killer always phoned in the evenings,
The killer always spoke for less than three minutes.
In all phonecalls the caller only wanted to talk to Melissa Barthelemy's little sister Amanda.
One time MB's mother answered, and the killer hung up as soon as he heard her voice.
Whoever was calling knew what Amanda looked like.
Police traced some of the calls to midtown Manhattan; Times Square, and Madison Square Garden, and another to Massapequa.
The killer sounded like an "older white guy"
Authorities tell CBS News he's likely white, between 25 and 40, is intelligent and street-smart
The killers voice was self-assured, a low voice, calmly mocking MB's sister.
"He was calm, in control," "He knew what he was doing." Amanda says.
"The voice on the other end was calm and bland, and never yelled or laughed" her mother, Lynn Barthelemy, said.
The killers was vulgar, mocking and insulting, according to the dead woman's mother, Lynn Barthelemy.
''If you accept it was the killer calling, he certainly had feelings of anger towards prostitutes.'' Mr. Cohen, Lynn Barthelemy's lawyer, said.

The calls abruptly stopped in August 2009 after a Buffalo TV station revealed their existence.


2009 calls from the killer, using MB's cell phone.

7 calls were made, Belowe are the 4 known dates, the last 3 calls has not been disclosed):


Thurs July 16, 2009: first call
Sun July 19, 2009:
Thurs July 23, 2009
Wed Aug 26, 2009: last call ( 01:00 am, lasted ca 40 seconds ) traced to the Times Square area.



SK Phonecalls content:

Thise are quotes from some of the phonecalls:

“Is this Melissa’s little sister?”

“I hear you’re a half-breed.”

'Do you know what your sister is doing? She's a *advertiser censored*.' (1st call according to LB's atty Steve Cohen)

“Are you gonna be a *advertiser censored* like your sister?”

"Do you think you'll ever see to her again?," .... "You won't. I killed her," (after having sex with her, he claimed Aug. 26, 2009, 1AM )
In the final call, the man described in graphic detail to the victim's sister what he had done sexually to Barthelemy, Cohen said.

And according to LB's atty Steve Cohen, in Dec 2011 48 Hours:

The killer also said that he know where Amanda lives and that he might come after her.

and that; "The killer said sexually exposit things as to what he had done to Melissa, and he said sexually

exposit things as to what he was going to do to Amanda"



Melissa's boyfriend, Johnny Terry also recived several phoncalls, probably, from the killer

1.According to Melissa's boyfriend, Johnny Terry, he too recieved taunting calls from someone he described as a "white guy".

2.Terry received over thirty phone calls during an eight month period, the caller mentions tattoos. Terry is quoted as saying, “He was threatening me. He said you liked to do some crazy stuff with Melissa. I know where you be at. Most of the time he seemed drunk. He knew who I was. He knew I had tattoos on my back.” One of the phones used to make these calls was a throw-away phone registered to Mickey Mouse.

3.Earlier that evening (July 12, 2009), the blond beauty told her boyfriend that she might be going to Long Island, a frequent haunt of hers. She regularly hung out there with a girlfriend who also worked as an online escort, as well as at the home of a regular client. Her boyfriend said he would oftentimes pick her up from the john's house."She would go to Long Island a lot," said her boyfriend Johnny Terry, who spoke exclusively with The Daily Beast. "She had some older man she was chummy with."Terry, who law-enforcement sources say was Barthelemy's pimp, said she was very secretive about her plans that night and declined an offer for a ride. "This time she said no," said Terry, who denies that he was her pimp. "I woke up in the morning and she wasn't there."



Additional info:
The NYPD was able to trace the last two calls to the Madison Square Garden and Times Square area.

They traced a second phone, that belonged to her ( Melissa), to an ex-con who said he picked it up after a tussle between hookers in Times Square orchestrated by a pimp.

I'm new to the LISK case. Can anyone tell me if the following people have been checked out/cleared/possible POIs:
- the ex-con who "picked up" Melissa's second phone
- the older man Melissa was "chummy with" on Long Island
- John Terry (although if he was her pimp, I have no idea why he'd kill his source of income)

 

[ktgirl]

TF Great job! Please consider sharing your skills on the Jennings 8 thread. lease:

Please!!!!! lease:

 

[Theforeigner]

Please!!!!! lease:

Hi justiceforever and ktgirl

I´m sorry to say I don't have time to involve in another case due to that I´m
very occupied in another hugh case beside the LISK case.

However if you or someone else working the Jennings 8 case have an important/urgent specific question that I might be able to help with you can email me through the message option "Send a message via email to Theforeigner" and I´ll see what I can do.

 

[Justiceforever]

Hi justiceforever and ktgirl

I´m sorry to say I don't have time to involve in another case due to that I´m
very occupied in another hugh case beside the LISK case.

However if you or someone else working the Jennings 8 case have an important/urgent specific question that I might be able to help with you can email me through the message option "Send a message via email to Theforeigner" and I´ll see what I can do.

Thanks TF. I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Justiceforever]

I'm new to the LISK case. Can anyone tell me if the following people have been checked out/cleared/possible POIs:
- the ex-con who "picked up" Melissa's second phone
- the older man Melissa was "chummy with" on Long Island
- John Terry (although if he was her pimp, I have no idea why he'd kill his source of income)

I can't answer your questions because I don't know. I just wanted to say Hi and welcome.