Found Deceased WA - Cheryl DeBoer, 54, Mountlake Terrace, 8 February 2016 #6

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She wanted to die by carbon dioxide poisoning? I know nothing about it. Is it better than carbon monoxide poisoning by sitting in a running car in a closed garage? Why is it preferable to be in a 2-3 foot deep creek while doing this? Clearly she didn't enter the creek after she passed out, so she had to get into the 2-3 foot deep cold water before she died by take-out bag over head carbon dioxide poisoning. Does that make sense?
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Suicide makes no sense! But sadly ppl do it
I just gave a link describing what happens when u breathe into a plastic bag,
Was she upst was she angry was she despondent.
What happened the days before all this happened?
IMO there is more to the story but probably will never hear it.
I don't think she was murdered. But that's just my thoughts here nothing more!
 
Thank you ANZAC. She must have been part ninja to make it there undetected. I am having trouble understanding how.
 
To piggy back, do you know of any suicide cases involving bags over the head and no drugs?

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Yes, I'm aware of a couple but have not seen myself. However, as I've pointed out before, this is a bag over the head *AND* immersion of the head in water. It isn't like sitting with a bag on your head at the dinner table and just waiting. Things will happen a LOT quicker underwater, the bag does not have to be airtight, etc....
 
Thank you ANZAC. She must have been part ninja to make it there undetected. I am having trouble understanding how.

a) people often don't report things they see
b) I don't know how much traffic typically on that road
c) maybe she took a circuitous route (this is actually a good theory and one I might follow up on - seen this behavior before)
 
I think there is an area of relatively calm water next to the north side of the culvert at the east entrance. Someone who played there as a child might know about it; finding debris washed up there would be a clue. If a person got into that spot, lay down in the water, and hyperventilated they would pass out fairly quickly. With a bag over their head they would asphyxiate and drown. We know that because we know what has happened to Cheryl.

A person might reason that their body would stay there forever in the calm place and never be found. Then their family would never be exposed to the truth and the speculation. It worked pretty well for a week.
 
Yes, I'm aware of a couple but have not seen myself. However, as I've pointed out before, this is a bag over the head *AND* immersion of the head in water. It isn't like sitting with a bag on your head at the dinner table and just waiting. Things will happen a LOT quicker underwater, the bag does not have to be airtight, etc....
But she was in shallow water. I believe she would have the urge to sit up.
 
Well I don't know precisely what MLT PD is thinking, I did previously post 3 suicide scenarios that fit the same timeline. Just search in this thread, I am too lazy to make a link. The first scenario is totally pre-planned suicide (i.e. every step was deliberate, the text message to co-workers to explain not meeting them, cutting fingers to leave blood stains, turning the phone off, leaving the car, walking to the culvert, entering it with the bag on her head. The 2nd scenario was basically panic i.e. failed attempt with razor (found she couldn't make herself cut deeply enough or felt it might take too long), abandoning the car, looking for somewhere to end her life, stumbling across the culvert. The 3rd was some kind of medical event (sudden onset dementia or whatever) leading to confusion, disorientation and what is effectively an accidental death in the culvert.

My assumption is she put the bag over her head, tied it as best she could around her neck, then laid down in the water and waited to succumb. (We just had a drowning suicide --- no weights, no bag, knew how to swim - explain that?!) Despondent people can definitely will themselves to do things you or I would ordinarily have trouble doing. They can also attain a state of calm enough to let what is going to happen, happen. They can also simultaneously plan to kill themselves while feeding the dog, paying rent, and booking a vacation or whatever.

There's no real evidence I'm aware of that would support any one of these scenarios vs the others.

My gut tells me somewhere between the 1st and 2nd scenario because nothing to support a medical event came up in the autopsy though they can't detect everything. I would also say the culvert looks "attractive" for suicide. One might think it also would for dumping a body, but it isn't. Too near the road, though the water is a big plus to wash DNA away, but criminals aren't that smart usually. If I were dumping a body there, I'd go for the wooded area near it.


It seems to me that if you tie a take-out food bag over your head, you'll look like you're wearing a bonnet. I can't see tying two handles into an air tight solution. Furthermore, those bags typically have built in leaks at the seams (due to poor manufacturing).
 
Wyle_E_Coyote, haven't I seen you on the Karen Swift thread? If so, do you recall if there were injuries to Karen's body?

This is similar, except the victim is older. A 53 year old woman, having no known personal or work related issues, is found 1.5 miles away from where she should be, beside a 6 foot diameter culvert drowned in a 2-3 foot deep creek. She is fully dressed, and her phone is missing. She has a plastic bag over her head and died from drowning.

Thoughts?
 
That's an interesting question. I had always thought that petichia is due to strangulation - violent pressure. Would drowning cause that type of eye injury?

I've not seen any bodies in a drowning with it. This link seems to support that it is not present in a drowning, just asphxia. chrome-extension://bpmcpldpdmajfigpchkicefoigmkfalc/views/app.html. The poster asked me about the timeline of petichia in regards to how long the body had been in the water and how long the petechia would show on the body. (If I understood the question correctly).
 
1. Found by LE/SAR and not disclosed in case it turns out to be a homicide and they need holdback info
2. Stashed by CD and not found yet or found by passerby
3. Stolen from body by passerby. (eg homeless person)

I lean to item 2. I gather from the news reports that at least two very thorough searches have been conducted.

The path between the car and the body (and areas surrounding) would have been prime search real estate and thoroughly searched. We don't always find everything. Searching in water is difficult.

If the phone had been found by police, and there was evidence of murder, would police release a statement claiming that there is no evidence of murder? I rather doubt it, as that would indisputably upset the family.

I think that the phone has not been found, but if Cheryl committed suicide, it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out the least observed (CCTV) route and search that route for the phone. It has to be somewhere between the two points, unless it was murder. Then it could be anywhere.
 
Id think the bag has prints on it and Id guess they are hers and the person that placed the food in the bag.
 
.

Suicide makes no sense! But sadly ppl do it
I just gave a link describing what happens when u breathe into a plastic bag,
Was she upst was she angry was she despondent.
What happened the days before all this happened?
IMO there is more to the story but probably will never hear it.
I don't think she was murdered. But that's just my thoughts here nothing more!

Suicide makes sense to me. People become depressed and it becomes a vicious cycle until it is a mental illness. Those people sometimes take their own lives. I get that.

What I don't get is the scenario that supports suicide. I'm imagining trying to tie the plastic bag handles under my chin to cut off my air, and then stepping into 2-3 feet deep cold creek water, and hoping to hyperventilate before I'm so cold I jump out of the water, or gaspingly rip the bag off my head. How does this alleged suicide happen?
 
A boxcutter blade is not a razor blade. They're quite different to handle as well.

I by having to use a Boxcutter blade assumed they were the same. Thank You. That is why I stated box knife for I have only had the experience of opening boxes with one in past jobs. :blushing:
 
Yes, I'm aware of a couple but have not seen myself. However, as I've pointed out before, this is a bag over the head *AND* immersion of the head in water. It isn't like sitting with a bag on your head at the dinner table and just waiting. Things will happen a LOT quicker underwater, the bag does not have to be airtight, etc....

What about the innate reflex to breath? Does search and rescue volunteer training cover suicide methods, and how the mind overcomes reflex and innate desire to breath?
 
Suicide makes sense to me. People become depressed and it becomes a vicious cycle until it is a mental illness. Those people sometimes take their own lives. I get that.

What I don't get is the scenario that supports suicide. I'm imagining trying to tie the plastic bag handles under my chin to cut off my air, and then stepping into 2-3 feet deep cold creek water, and hoping to hyperventilate before I'm so cold I jump out of the water, or gaspingly rip the bag off my head. How does this alleged suicide happen?

I hate extreme temps, but the only time I've contemplated and planned out my suicide, it was to take a sleeping bag into the woods in frigid winter and freeze to death. I didn't attempt it, but I have no doubt that if I had I would have had the resolve to follow through. I'm tenacious. (I would have taken drugs or alcohol, though!)

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Suicide makes sense to me. People become depressed and it becomes a vicious cycle until it is a mental illness. Those people sometimes take their own lives. I get that.

What I don't get is the scenario that supports suicide. I'm imagining trying to tie the plastic bag handles under my chin to cut off my air, and then stepping into 2-3 feet deep cold creek water, and hoping to hyperventilate before I'm so cold I jump out of the water, or gaspingly rip the bag off my head. How does this alleged suicide happen?

you pass out from the CO2 you are breathing!
Then u fall under the water and drown!
what did I read this is the peaceful way to exit.
 
a) people often don't report things they see
b) I don't know how much traffic typically on that road
c) maybe she took a circuitous route (this is actually a good theory and one I might follow up on - seen this behavior before)

Feel free to draw a route on the map. How do you think she got to the culvert, and why didn't she choose a closer culvert.

I wonder what the water levels are upstream.

big_picture_route.jpg
 
I think there is an area of relatively calm water next to the north side of the culvert at the east entrance. Someone who played there as a child might know about it; finding debris washed up there would be a clue. If a person got into that spot, lay down in the water, and hyperventilated they would pass out fairly quickly. With a bag over their head they would asphyxiate and drown. We know that because we know what has happened to Cheryl.

A person might reason that their body would stay there forever in the calm place and never be found. Then their family would never be exposed to the truth and the speculation. It worked pretty well for a week.

It was February 8, and the water would have been cold. A 6' diameter culvert would have been dark, and colder. Standing in 2-3 feet of water in that culvert ... what happened?
 
Id think the bag has prints on it and Id guess they are hers and the person that placed the food in the bag.

No possible way that the take out bag has prints. Cheryl was found 6 full days after she was last seen. The bag was on her head in the moving water - which actually suggests that it was attached rather well.
 
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