WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[Hraefn]

There are two parts to a phone call: the first part is reaching the network and the network looking for the phone. Some phone providers have a "ring" on this part of the call, others are silent. Then there is the connection or lack of connection to the receiving phone, at which point it will go to voicemail if the phone is disabled.
Some people may recall this being confusing when the Malaysia Airline plane went missing; some phones were ringing before going to voicemail. That doesn't mean the phones are powered on unfortunately.
No Contract Cell Phone Resources by Pure TalkUSA

 

[sasha17]

There are two parts to a phone call: the first part is reaching the network and the network looking for the phone. Some phone providers have a "ring" on this part of the call, others are silent. Then there is the connection or lack of connection to the receiving phone, at which point it will go to voicemail if the phone is disabled.
Some people may recall this being confusing when the Malaysia Airline plane went missing; some phones were ringing before going to voicemail. That doesn't mean the phones are powered on unfortunately.
No Contract Cell Phone Resources by Pure TalkUSA

I came here to say the same thing about the Malaysia Airlines case. Those families were sure for quite some time that the passengers were alive somewhere because some of the phones were ringing, but that wasn't true.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Samantha's mother issued another update earlier today in which she said she had been in contact with Google's legal department, and they told her she would need a subpoena. In the mean time, they got into her GMAIL accounts and looked around for any data there, but they still can't access the GPS that her phone might have had. She also encouraged people to DM GoogleMaps to see if they can help.

I don't personally think that this will get them anywhere new. They pinged the phone on the 2nd and 3rd day of the search, which is where they got the cellphone pings from. I suppose a GPS coordinate might be more accurate, and could help them narrow the area. As for pinging a dead phone, I doubt that's possible.

There are members of the Facebook group that are very angry that it's not, but if the phone isn't connected to the network, there's nothing that can be done.

 

[sasha17]

Samantha's mother issued another update earlier today in which she said she had been in contact with Google's legal department, and they told her she would need a subpoena. In the mean time, they got into her GMAIL accounts and looked around for any data there, but they still can't access the GPS that her phone might have had. She also encouraged people to DM GoogleMaps to see if they can help.

I don't personally think that this will get them anywhere new. They pinged the phone on the 2nd and 3rd day of the search, which is where they got the cellphone pings from. I suppose a GPS coordinate might be more accurate, and could help them narrow the area. As for pinging a dead phone, I doubt that's possible.

There are members of the Facebook group that are very angry that it's not, but if the phone isn't connected to the network, there's nothing that can be done.

It's depressing to look at the Facebook group and still see the comments like, "Why don't they just ping her phone and follow where it pings to?" or "Have they tried to just contact the cell phone provider?" I know these commenters are likely just uninformed, but it's been over a month now. I'm sure if it was possible to "just ping her phone" or "just contact the cell phone provider", that would have been done AGES ago. It's sad and frustrating to read through the threads of hundreds of comments and see tons and tons of comments like this. I can't imagine the family having to wade through that on every post they make.

 

[i'm someone]

I understand Google and other communications companies refusing to just help family members to hack into accounts for no reason. But in these cases where data would really be instrumental in saving someone's life there really needs to be a change in policy. Why else do we even have these accounts and items if not to use them for important things like finding people who are missing? They allow 10 year olds to sext each other for crying out loud. Can they not allow for something progressive and life enhancing for once? Goodness sakes, it's like one step forward, and stop and stand in place.

The inspection of someone's online and communication data should be working it's way into forensics already. If someone called a house phone or left a message on someone's answering machine, those things would have lit up the investigation like a spotlight beam. Now the data seems held hostage by corporations who insist they "own" everything you create and do. Well then, if that is the case they better start being responsible for that data and using it to keep people safer. moo

 

[kgreg2529]

I understand Google and other communications companies refusing to just help family members to hack into accounts for no reason. But in these cases where data would really be instrumental in saving someone's life there really needs to be a change in policy. Why else do we even have these accounts and items if not to use them for important things like finding people who are missing? They allow 10 year olds to sext each other for crying out loud. Can they not allow for something progressive and life enhancing for once? Goodness sakes, it's like one step forward, and stop and stand in place.

The inspection of someone's online and communication data should be working it's way into forensics already. If someone called a house phone or left a message on someone's answering machine, those things would have lit up the investigation like a spotlight beam. Now the data seems held hostage by corporations who insist they "own" everything you create and do. Well then, if that is the case they better start being responsible for that data and using it to keep people safer. moo

While i do get this 100% they still don’t have absolute 100% proof that she didn’t leave voluntarily, if you know what I mean. Since there is no trace whatsoever, anywhere. She could have a burner phone somewhere and have left hers behind or destroyed it. I do not think this is what happened, but maybe that’s why things are the way they are, they could be in big trouble if they give out info and are able to pin her location to people she doesn’t want to find her.

Like I said, though, I don’t think that’s what is going on, I believe she is still on the mountain, but maybe this is their standpoint legally on it?

 

[Phantasma2624]

I understand Google and other communications companies refusing to just help family members to hack into accounts for no reason. But in these cases where data would really be instrumental in saving someone's life there really needs to be a change in policy. Why else do we even have these accounts and items if not to use them for important things like finding people who are missing? They allow 10 year olds to sext each other for crying out loud. Can they not allow for something progressive and life enhancing for once? Goodness sakes, it's like one step forward, and stop and stand in place.

The inspection of someone's online and communication data should be working it's way into forensics already. If someone called a house phone or left a message on someone's answering machine, those things would have lit up the investigation like a spotlight beam. Now the data seems held hostage by corporations who insist they "own" everything you create and do. Well then, if that is the case they better start being responsible for that data and using it to keep people safer. moo

Had law enforcement originally asked for it (and given them a subpoena), I'm sure they would have cooperated right away. I'm assuming law enforcement didn't ask them, and I would imagine that the reason behind it was they were able to ping her phone. Like I said, I don't think that any data they do get will be anything new, given that the police already pinged her phone. The family also got access to her phone early on through whatever hacking thing they did, so they didn't need the GPS data. The reason that it is being brought up now is because they are desperately trying to limit the search area.

As @Suglo and @kgreg2529 pointed out, Google has no way of knowing who is missing voluntarily or not, and they can't give out the data without a subpoena. I think it's the opposite of what you're saying. If Google "owned" the data, they could do whatever they want with it. Instead, Google allows **you** to keep control of your data, and part of this is that they will not release your data to anyone. Even if Samantha were found using that data, she could turn around and sue them for breach of privacy, and she would win a lot of money. These are the terms that everyone agrees to when they sign up for Google (or Apple), and why they invest so heavily in encryption. Any data that is used is either used internally or scrubbed of all personal characteristics before being sent on. I believe the only case in which they would make an exception is if the missing person is a minor. Companies prefer not to take that risk, and they wait for a subpoena. That being said, subpoenas are actually fairly easy to get, even for a layperson. But given that the police are still investigating this as a disappearance, it might have to come from them. Either way, I don't imagine that Google will budge on the subpoena issue.

While in this case it might make sense, I can imagine other circumstances in which simply issuing data because someone is missing would not be a good idea. What if it were a situation in which a domestic violence victim fled their abuser, and their abuser wanted the data? This is why it is better to have it go through the police department's hands.

 

[Satchie]

Had law enforcement originally asked for it (and given them a subpoena), I'm sure they would have cooperated right away. I'm assuming law enforcement didn't ask them, and I would imagine that the reason behind it was they were able to ping her phone. Like I said, I don't think that any data they do get will be anything new, given that the police already pinged her phone. The family also got access to her phone early on through whatever hacking thing they did, so they didn't need the GPS data. The reason that it is being brought up now is because they are desperately trying to limit the search area.

As @Suglo and @kgreg2529 pointed out, Google has no way of knowing who is missing voluntarily or not, and they can't give out the data without a subpoena. I think it's the opposite of what you're saying. If Google "owned" the data, they could do whatever they want with it. Instead, Google allows **you** to keep control of your data, and part of this is that they will not release your data to anyone. Even if Samantha were found using that data, she could turn around and sue them for breach of privacy, and she would win a lot of money. These are the terms that everyone agrees to when they sign up for Google (or Apple), and why they invest so heavily in encryption. Any data that is used is either used internally or scrubbed of all personal characteristics before being sent on. I believe the only case in which they would make an exception is if the missing person is a minor. Companies prefer not to take that risk, and they wait for a subpoena. That being said, subpoenas are actually fairly easy to get, even for a layperson. But given that the police are still investigating this as a disappearance, it might have to come from them. Either way, I don't imagine that Google will budge on the subpoena issue.

While in this case it might make sense, I can imagine other circumstances in which simply issuing data because someone is missing would not be a good idea. What if it were a situation in which a domestic violence victim fled their abuser, and their abuser wanted the data? This is why it is better to have it go through the police department's hands.

I agree.

It's also not that the tech companies 'choose' or have themselves decided not to release data, they've been ordered not to release it by the courts, and therefore it is illegal for them to release it. This has come as a result of fears of government surveillance, etc, and arguments that privacy of that data is a constitutional right. In Ruling on Cellphone Location Data, Supreme Court Makes Statement on Digital Privacy

 

[Phantasma2624]

I agree.

It's also not that the tech companies 'choose' or have themselves decided not to release data, they've been ordered not to release it by the courts, and therefore it is illegal for them tomrelease it. This has come as a result of fears of government surveillance, etc, and arguments that privacy of that data is a constitutional right. In Ruling on Cellphone Location Data, Supreme Court Makes Statement on Digital Privacy

As crazy as this sounds, this is why I created an "If I Go Missing" folder. It has in it all of my important information that my loved ones might need, my usual routes to work, a list of friends and family members, a hair sample, and my passwords. I keep it locked away in a safe deposit box. That way, if I do go missing, they can get a subpoena to open the box (if they're not already on the list of approved people who can access it in case of verified emergencies), open it, and have everything they need.

 

[i'm someone]

As crazy as this sounds, this is why I created an "If I Go Missing" folder. It has in it all of my important information that my loved ones might need, my usual routes to work, a list of friends and family members, a hair sample, and my passwords. I keep it locked away in a safe deposit box. That way, if I do go missing, they can get a subpoena to open the box (if they're not already on the list of approved people who can access it in case of verified emergencies), open it, and have everything they need.

I recently read an article by a forensic writer who said she kept her children's bandaids from their skinned knees in a sealed bag in the freezer, "just in case".

I understand the whole concept of what you guys are saying about privacy, but with all of the missing and endangered people and kids out there, it's not doing them much good to put privacy over human life. At least in the communications world. For instance, when there were land lines, and someone didn't answer the phone for like, 3 days, most people would get worried and either go to the person's house, or call the cops for a welfare check.

If someone is missing on a mountain for a month, and it is out of character, I am pretty sure the person who is missing would want the data used to find them. And if she is missing intentionally, as some have suggested, then the FBI should probably be looking into that to have her pay for the most expensive search in WA history. I personally think something has happened to her, either on the mountain, or taken away from the mountain. Our society is not doing itself any favors just adding law after law without thinking about the unintended consequences. We should be able to make minor alterations in law to make the world better without everyone just going down some slippery slope to exposure of our private lives.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I recently read an article by a forensic writer who said she kept her children's bandaids from their skinned knees in a sealed bag in the freezer, "just in case".

I understand the whole concept of what you guys are saying about privacy, but with all of the missing and endangered people and kids out there, it's not doing them much good to put privacy over human life. At least in the communications world. For instance, when there were land lines, and someone didn't answer the phone for like, 3 days, most people would get worried and either go to the person's house, or call the cops for a welfare check.

If someone is missing on a mountain for a month, and it is out of character, I am pretty sure the person who is missing would want the data used to find them. And if she is missing intentionally, as some have suggested, then the FBI should probably be looking into that to have her pay for the most expensive search in WA history. I personally think something has happened to her, either on the mountain, or taken away from the mountain. Our society is not doing itself any favors just adding law after law without thinking about the unintended consequences. We should be able to make minor alterations in law to make the world better without everyone just going down some slippery slope to exposure of our private lives.

I understand what you're saying. I was listening to a podcast about missing persons, and one mother said that she wished that cellphone contracts came with an option that said, "If I'm missing, I give permission for X person to access my data". I thought that this was an interesting idea. It's kind of like HIPPA, but for cellphone data.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I recently read an article by a forensic writer who said she kept her children's bandaids from their skinned knees in a sealed bag in the freezer, "just in case".

I understand the whole concept of what you guys are saying about privacy, but with all of the missing and endangered people and kids out there, it's not doing them much good to put privacy over human life. At least in the communications world. For instance, when there were land lines, and someone didn't answer the phone for like, 3 days, most people would get worried and either go to the person's house, or call the cops for a welfare check.

If someone is missing on a mountain for a month, and it is out of character, I am pretty sure the person who is missing would want the data used to find them. And if she is missing intentionally, as some have suggested, then the FBI should probably be looking into that to have her pay for the most expensive search in WA history. I personally think something has happened to her, either on the mountain, or taken away from the mountain. Our society is not doing itself any favors just adding law after law without thinking about the unintended consequences. We should be able to make minor alterations in law to make the world better without everyone just going down some slippery slope to exposure of our private lives.

This also reminded me that Samantha's mother said in an update that the FBI has refused to get involved, because they don't believe that there has been any foul play, or at least none has been suspected at this time. I thought that this was an interesting comment to make, but I guess because they didn't find any evidence of a kidnapping, their hands are essentially tied.

 

[i'm someone]

This also reminded me that Samantha's mother said in an update that the FBI has refused to get involved, because they don't believe that there has been any foul play, or at least none has been suspected at this time. I thought that this was an interesting comment to make, but I guess because they didn't find any evidence of a kidnapping, their hands are essentially tied.

It's the FBI. Their hands are only tied if they want them to be.

 

[Phantasma2624]

It's the FBI. Their hands are only tied if they want them to be.

True. But I don't see any evidence that Snohomish County has done anything to have the case taken from them, and there's nothing really that would indicate the FBI should be involved. I don't know what they could do that Snohomish couldn't at this point. I hope that the local police help the family fill out the paperwork of a subpoena, so that they can get the data. While I don't think they can ping a dead phone, maybe the phone does have GPS coordinates that they could use. Those might be more accurate than the pings.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Another update from Samantha's mother via video on 9/5 at night.

• The help today helped them get "new info" and they have people looking into this. The family is trying to hire a licensed PI in Washington.
• They're meeting with the Jon Francis Foundation, who will also meet with the sheriff tomorrow.
• Someone saw a "body" on the drone footage and called the sheriff. It was a log. The mother issued a warning to please only call if they see Samantha or a piece of equipment. She mentioned that the police would get angry if people kept doing this. I kind of understand this, but if I thought that I saw a body, I wouldn't put it in the spreadsheet either.
• Drone operators will be able to operate all day tomorrow, and they're getting special software to help with object recognition. They've also got helicopters to get searchers to the summit.
• Ground level searching is continuing. There are still areas that haven't been searched. Jon Francis is bringing in dogs on Friday.

I feel so bad for her mother, and for her brothers. I guess she offended people when she asked them to stop pestering her with questions earlier today. I can understand her feelings, especially about answering the same difficult questions about Samantha over and over again. This whole situation is tearing their lives apart.

 

[Suglo]

Another update from Samantha's mother via video on 9/5 at night.

• The help today helped them get "new info" and they have people looking into this. The family is trying to hire a licensed PI in Washington.
• They're meeting with the Jon Francis Foundation, who will also meet with the sheriff tomorrow.
• Someone saw a "body" on the drone footage and called the sheriff. It was a log. The mother issued a warning to please only call if they see Samantha or a piece of equipment. She mentioned that the police would get angry if people kept doing this. I kind of understand this, but if I thought that I saw a body, I wouldn't put it in the spreadsheet either.
• Drone operators will be able to operate all day tomorrow, and they're getting special software to help with object recognition. They've also got helicopters to get searchers to the summit.
• Ground level searching is continuing. There are still areas that haven't been searched. Jon Francis is bringing in dogs on Friday.

I feel so bad for her mother, and for her brothers. I guess she offended people when she asked them to stop pestering her with questions earlier today. I can understand her feelings, especially about answering the same difficult questions about Samantha over and over again. This whole situation is tearing their lives apart.

Speaking of drone operators. They said today that they will be working with an outfit named “Wings of Mercy.” They are drone operators and also specialists in reviewing drone footage for anomalies in the landscape. One of their drone operators Steve Monchak is in that FB group. Very very interesting comments on the first couple of posts on their FB page. It’s a public group.

 

[MsFacetious]

Speaking of drone operators. They said today that they will be working with an outfit named “Wings of Mercy.” They are drone operators and also specialists in reviewing drone footage for anomalies in the landscape. One of their drone operators Steve Monchak is in that FB group. Very very interesting comments on the first couple of posts on their FB page. It’s a public group.

Speaking of drone operators. They said today that they will be working with an outfit named “Wings of Mercy.” They are drone operators and also specialists in reviewing drone footage for anomalies in the landscape. One of their drone operators Steve Monchak is in that FB group. Very very interesting comments on the first couple of posts on their FB page. It’s a public group.

Yes, I was just coming to suggest this as an alternative to Sam's page. If you feel that you have seen something in the drone footage or feel you have a suggestion that the family will not listen to... send it Steve's way. Several of the people with years of SAR experience have been blocked from Sam's page. Some are in this group working here instead. Going up in a helicopter tomorrow it sounds like.

Log into Facebook | Facebook

 

[MsFacetious]

I'm hopefully that there might be answers by the end of the week with the additional resources coming in. I so hope so. Even though the family doesn't want it, I want this over before the snow flies.

 

[Suglo]

Yes, I was just coming to suggest this as an alternative to Sam's page. If you feel that you have seen something in the drone footage or feel you have a suggestion that the family will not listen to... send it Steve's way. Several of the people with years of SAR experience have been blocked from Sam's page. Some are in this group working here instead. Going up in a helicopter tomorrow it sounds like.

Log into Facebook | Facebook

It’s just crazy that they are blocking people who have the expertise they need to bring her home. It’s tragic actually.

 

[MsFacetious]

Exactly. Because the family is so focused on finding her alive, I don't think they have given that much thought. Having read a few books on scavenging, and having been to a body farm, I can tell you that it's no easy task, particularly when a body has been exposed to the elements for this long.

Not to be graphic, but there exists the very real reality, too, that we may no longer be looking for a whole person. That is, if she happened to perish early, and has been out in the elements this long, it's likely scavengers found her. In many jungle disappearances, skulls are found, feet still in boots are found, and occasionally a pelvis or femur. Sometimes they are found miles from each other. I would hate to think of them publishing any footage that would inadvertently show Samantha in such a state for all the internet to see. I think in their mind they'll see her hunched over in cave, or someone will find her gear...no one has been thinking of the other things that someone might find.

This is why I'm SO glad that the drone people have taken it upon themselves to continue searching independent of the family. A lot of people would quit when blocked by the family. These guys aren't. I'm so glad!

Plus at this point in time and because of changing seasons soon, one would think she might just want Sam home in any way possible. Rather than feel the way Jacob’s mom felt about leaving their loved one out there “alone and abandoned.” She’s running out of time for that. Jmo. Sad.

Yes. I just want Sam off that mountain, period. I know Garrett Bardsley's Dad has learned to be at peace with him still being on the mountain. However, I don't see Sam's mother doing that. I think Sam needs to be found ASAP and brought home so her mother can come to terms with this.