WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[Phantasma2624]

I don't watch the videos so I appreciate the synopsis. I understand not wanting to give up hope and that is fine. I am just afraid that she might alienate those who do want to help, for fear that they may end up getting bashed next...

100o% agree with you. I didn’t know people were going to the page and telling her she was dead. How awful! I may feel that she is gone but I would never go there to post that. It’s not our place but I would hope she would listen to the experts. She doesn’t have to believe them but use all the resources available no matter what they may imply.

I kind of wanted to address these two together. First, to clarify, there are some people who are just trolls who are telling the mother she is dead and she should accept it. These people, as I said, have no business being on that page. That being said, the family considers anyone who implies that Sam is dead to be a troll. That means even if you ask a simple and innocent question. This is what has stopped me from asking questions to clarify their timeline. I fear that it will be deleted by the mods, but not before the people attack me and imply that I am trolling. I've seen this happen on the page before. Since Facebook isn't anonymous, I fear that this is stopping people from seeking clear answers and updates out of fear of being harassed by the community there. I don't think that this is a healthy approach to leading a search via social media. Trolls should be banned, but clarifying questions or serious inquiries should not be labelled as trolling.

 

[i'm someone]

If you look at the current #findsamsayers map, there are definitely some huge areas she could be

I kind of wanted to address these two together. First, to clarify, there are some people who are just trolls who are telling the mother she is dead and she should accept it. These people, as I said, have no business being on that page. That being said, the family considers anyone who implies that Sam is dead to be a troll. That means even if you ask a simple and innocent question. This is what has stopped me from asking questions to clarify their timeline. I fear that it will be deleted by the mods, but not before the people attack me and imply that I am trolling. I've seen this happen on the page before. Since Facebook isn't anonymous, I fear that this is stopping people from seeking clear answers and updates out of fear of being harassed by the community there. I don't think that this is a healthy approach to leading a search via social media. Trolls should be banned, but clarifying questions or serious inquiries should not be labelled as trolling.

I agree totally. I have been wording my posts so carefully, and even supportive things can sound like doubt to people in denial. Fortunately, there is new footage to watch, and it seems to be in areas that are pretty rough. I know I would search for the rest of my life if one of my loved ones went missing, so I get that, but I think the not knowing is worse than just believing in one outcome or another. I have all sorts of opinions that would be inappropriate to say to the family, mostly to do with the fact that even though to them she is an "avid hiker", she seems to have made about a dozen newbie mistakes. I have asked a couple of times how she was likely to handle hiking emergencies, like what would be her survival strategies, and they shut me down like I was accusing her of being reckless. I've watched enough hiker vlogs to know that my own personal strategy would be not to hike in the mountains. But for people who love it, there is a definite list of things you need to do to be safe.

 

[zecats]

If you look at the current #findsamsayers map, there are definitely some huge areas she could be

I agree totally. I have been wording my posts so carefully, and even supportive things can sound like doubt to people in denial. Fortunately, there is new footage to watch, and it seems to be in areas that are pretty rough. I know I would search for the rest of my life if one of my loved ones went missing, so I get that, but I think the not knowing is worse than just believing in one outcome or another. I have all sorts of opinions that would be inappropriate to say to the family, mostly to do with the fact that even though to them she is an "avid hiker", she seems to have made about a dozen newbie mistakes. I have asked a couple of times how she was likely to handle hiking emergencies, like what would be her survival strategies, and they shut me down like I was accusing her of being reckless. I've watched enough hiker vlogs to know that my own personal strategy would be not to hike in the mountains. But for people who love it, there is a definite list of things you need to do to be safe.

Maybe the fact that she had hiked here many times, solo and with boyfriend, put her at a comfort level that ignored personal safety. Jmo.

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

I hope I'm not derailing the thread, I do think this has to to with Sam and other missing persons in general.....what type of extra things are needed for dogs to go into tougher terrain (besides owners needing insurance and stuff....I mean about the actual dogs.)? Do they need extra equipment? Or more discipline training? Or something else?

 

[sasha17]

I hope I'm not derailing the thread, I do think this has to to with Sam and other missing persons in general.....what type of extra things are needed for dogs to go into tougher terrain (besides owners needing insurance and stuff....I mean about the actual dogs.)? Do they need extra equipment? Or more discipline training? Or something else?

I can't speak to dog training at all, but do know that because of the rough terrain, they were having difficulty getting dogs into areas they wanted/needed to be in. This meant the only option was helicopter. I know this has been a barrier for them. There's a post on the Facebook group added tonight about this specifically, asking for help if anyone has a connection to a helicopter because they have a K9 team that can go in but needs to go in via helicopter.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I hope I'm not derailing the thread, I do think this has to to with Sam and other missing persons in general.....what type of extra things are needed for dogs to go into tougher terrain (besides owners needing insurance and stuff....I mean about the actual dogs.)? Do they need extra equipment? Or more discipline training? Or something else?

Based on my very rudimentary knowledge, the dogs need training in how to handle the mountains and steep terrain. They may also have to wear additional gear, such as booties to protect their feet, which can cause a dog discomfort if they don't know how to walk in them already. Furthermore, they may also need extra training in techniques like airlifting and climbing, so that the dogs do not panic or run off a cliff. They may also need to be trained in the terrain to handle high altitudes, snow, or other weather-related conditions.

I've noticed many of the dogs that they have used are labs, so they are higher energy dogs. It's possible that other dogs like blood hounds don't do so well in this type of environment.

 

[ChelaKitty]

This thread led me to learn more about SAR dogs, and the different ways they search. Very interesting topic, if you want to know more here’s a place start,

Search and rescue dog - Wikipedia

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

Thank you all for your responses, very interesting and helpful!

 

[North American Blue Jay]

It's hard to post/respond to multiple accounts, so forgive me if I just post, absent the quotes. I have posted this earlier.

The "Vesper Peak" video posted by Jared Middleton is not supposed to be the summit; he himself posted that he did not reach the summit - and if you look at his public photos for that day (at least a week or two ago when I last looked) the photos did not include views from the summit. He mistakenly seemed to believe this snow field was the way he was supposed to go - and for obvious reasons, he decided this was far enough (though apparently, he did go up on the saddle as per his 2 PM video, which I also linked with the 1:30 video, that shows he is in close proximity to Sperry); i.e. he made a wrong turn. This point, which I made earlier, is substantiated by the WTA website another person shared which says:

"A steep snowfield often lingers just below the summit, but can be avoided by a quick jog to the left (to the right here is the most dangerous terrain on the east flank - steep rock with greater exposure requiring some technical moves to complete)."

I don't know if this is the snowfield they're referencing, along with Middleton's wrong turn, but it looks like it might be.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that's the Vesper/Sperry saddle they're climbing - and which Middleton apparently does next, as well, although I haven't seen any published explanation by Middleton - if he went there - as to what he saw these other two hikers and Sayers do next - which would be very important information - and whether he did or didn't see them past the 1:30 video.

I looked at this map at the findsamsayer.com website - and it is not my understanding that this map on the front page is a map released or factually verified by the Sheriff's office. These are amateur maps. It is my understanding from listening to some of Sayers' mother's videos that she and their family are delegating any number of tasks to any number of people, not all of whom are familiar with the area, or even wilderness hiking, for that matter. For example, in Middleton's 2 PM video post, one of the mom's assistants posts something to the effect, "Oh, look at that, you were up at Vesper Peak." But it's not Vesper Peak - the view is totally different - it's likely the saddle, based on his proximity to, and view, of Sperry. These people, well-meaning, but mistaken, in some ways, appear to be filling in parts of these maps, i.e. in this case, they write, "Videotaped summiting 13:30." No, she's not. Though Middleton might have believed she was (or, that she was on her way there - he apparently knew the saddle wasn't Vesper Peak - as he later posts he didn't go to the summit). I don't know if he even knows to this day that he took a wrong turn - or that it wasn't the standard hiker's route to Vesper Peak - or, that Sayers had already been at the summit around noon.

Sayers was seen by multiple witnesses at the Vesper Peak summit at noon. She was seen by a rock climbing group, one climber speaking with her at the summit for 10 minutes before she headed down by herself. That climber - who is on Facebook like Jared Middleton - also reports seeing this "older man" who wished to remain anonymous to all except the sheriff's office - and whose summit time was first reported incorrectly at 3 PM. The climber also posted a photo of himself hanging from the North Face of Vesper Peak taken right after he spoke with Sayers and she headed down in the other direction.

On the subject of "pings." I also read this account by the climber whose sister had to rescue him and reached 911 via Verizon. But there were no others in their party. She did not ascend to a higher altitude to get reception; she was descending the North Face of Vesper (which is the climber's route - her brother had an accident and injured his foot while they were ascending the North Face).

They had secure him and his foot on a ledge - and she had to descend by herself for help- telling her brother, before she left, she never felt more alone in her life. They did not expect to be able to rescue him before the following day - because they did not expect her to be able to get cell reception that soon. They expected he'd have to be up there on this ledge with a horrible foot injury all night by himself. And my understanding is, the North Face is no small feat to descend - let alone by yourself - and I'm guessing she wasn't the more experienced climber, either.

But .. the story backs up the suggestion that people will try 911 anyway even if they think there's no cell reception. Because that's what she repeatedly did anyway, just out of sheer desperation. And weirdly enough, at an altitude you'd never expect phone reception with all the mountain ranges - voilà- almost like a commercial - it was Verizon. And .. this weird moment of actually being able to get through to 911, the storyteller shared, probably made the difference between the climber losing his foot altogether and his foot being saved. Along with the fact that his sister kept trying as she was descending - and against all reasonable expectation.

FWIW - this is what I understand about the "pings" - they're not reliable as to the actual location of the phone - it's only a range - and while they could indicate movement, they could also be in different locations while the phone is stationery. So I'm understanding that *all* we can deduce from the pings is that her phone is/was in the general vicinity of Vesper Peak (and that it was working at that time - or enough for them to get a signal).

As one person here pointed out (it seems) most people would try to use their phone anyway - so I agree with the hypothesis that Sayers was either unable to use her phone because of a sudden incident (like perhaps a fall) that left her too incapacitated (and possibly gone) - or she was separated from her phone.

Nevertheless, the fact that they got two pings - as someone else pointed out - indicates that the phone was working. Therefore, if Sayers fell, the phone was either protected by Sayers' body or belongings - or the phone, by itself, didn't fall that far. It seems that a selfie fall might be falsified, in this case (but people would have to research those cases) because, in such a horrific scenario, the phone might go flying off the cliff along with the person, winging out of their hand, then falling independently and smashing below, so that there would be no pings.

She was expected to phone by 6 PM that evening. When her partner didn't hear from her, he went up to the trail, hiked part-way, then down again in the dark, contacting the authorities by about 1:30 AM the following morning. So - in response to one person posting they pinged her the day she was gone - no - they pinged her phone either the following day (beginning with the day the authorities were contacted) or the day after, and as per the Huffpost article I linked. They cannot call her on the phone - they are locating the phone "in the moment." Her mother says, in that article, the military happened to be in the area so they helped (since they were there) by flying over and pinging the phone twice somewhere in that initial two day search period. Maybe it was even the same flight and same day? Dunno.

But, I'm agreeing with the view that she was not on the move IF she had her phone. (Because she would have tried to call 911 anyway.) Of course, if these pings *do* show movement, then that, in my view, might suggest abduction since she doesn't try to call 911 - or maybe a Sam Sayers no one knew - just abandoned her phone - or turned it off - and disappeared into a new life (which I bet her loved ones would love to know as the case, at this point). I also read, if the phone is simply turned off, they can't get pings either. (FWIW, this is google search summary information with questions and answers about how they ping phones and what it does and doesn't mean. I've found these google search summaries sometimes have inaccurate information.)

So there's a very limited set of facts, to my understanding, from these "pings." But they could be key to determining what happened.

I wonder how she usually carried her phone - and what kind of phone case, if any. She probably took a lot pictures with it, which would also use up the battery life more quickly, and would be why she had it on, i.e. outside cell reception. She and her partner took lots of photos together.

 

[North American Blue Jay]

Yes, those are awesome, but I also respect that they are pricey and many require you to not just buy the device but pay either monthly or yearly for a subscription. I would invest in one if I was thru-hiking or even going on a multi-day backpacking trip. I am a day hiker and don't know that other day hikers would want to (or for some even be able to) afford the cost. For example the SPOT Satellite GPS Messenger is $150 just to purchase it, plus whatever the subscription costs.

Obviously if I knew I would be in peril, I would say the $150+ subscription is worth it, but 99.8% of the time (my made up stat!) that you are on the trail, you won't need it. If you can't afford that cost and most likely won't need it, I can see day hikers especially not investing in one.

Great to know they have some that cost less, though you have to research the differences. The main thing you want to do is give authorities your immediate SOS with exact coordinates and text, too, if possible.

Even for the pricier ones, though, figure how much you put into your car for a safety feature. I'm wondering, too, about the subscription plans. Can you do a pay-as-you-go, like cell phones? Or do you have to contract for longer periods? In which case, maybe you just subscribe during the summer, for example, if you're a seasonal day hiker.

 

[Suglo]

Kevin, her boyfriend, posted a couple of hours ago that Snohomish County SAR contacted him to let him know that they will be doing visual helicopter searches tomorrow, Tuesday 9/4/18 from 1400-1600 (2:00-4:00 pm). Two hours is better than nothing.

 

[GraceG]

I hope I'm not derailing the thread, I do think this has to to with Sam and other missing persons in general.....what type of extra things are needed for dogs to go into tougher terrain (besides owners needing insurance and stuff....I mean about the actual dogs.)? Do they need extra equipment? Or more discipline training? Or something else?

Most alpine training for dogs is done for avalanche search and rescue, where the dog is working in mostly high altitude snowy terrain (and yes, they learn to ride a ski lift) In truly alpine mountainous terrain, where the hiker is almost climbing in spots, it's very difficult to get a dog in to search. And both the dog and handler must have terrain specific training.

The handlers also must have specific training related to working with a SAR dog at high altitude including injuries, effects of heat and cold, risks to paws and legs, danger from other animals and toxins, fitness and nutrition, wounds and burns, overuse orthopedic injuries, respiratory problems and what to bring for canine first-aid. Dogs can experience altitude sickness and dehydration is more of an issue and, like humans, the dog shouldn’t drink from streams unless the water is treated. Since dogs can’t sweat the loss of fluid is out their tongue and that can be a lot at altitude.

Alpine rescue dog handlers also need to be more aware of prevention, especially cardiopulmonary issues that can arise with altitude. A dog can get hypoxic at altitude and if they are not oxygenating well, they are going to have difficulty in breathing and their heart may race. The handler must be trained in recognizing this as well as learn cardiopulmonary resuscitation for dogs.

You can’t just take a SAR dog not trained in such an environment and put them out there safely.

 

[Phantasma2624]

The "Vesper Peak" video posted by Jared Middleton is not supposed to be the summit; he himself posted that he did not reach the summit - and if you look at his public photos for that day (at least a week or two ago when I last looked) the photos did not include views from the summit.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that's the Vesper/Sperry saddle they're climbing - and which Middleton apparently does next, as well, although I haven't seen any published explanation by Middleton - if he went there - as to what he saw these other two hikers and Sayers do next - which would be very important information - and whether he did or didn't see them past the 1:30 video.

I looked at this map at the findsamsayer.com website - and it is not my understanding that this map on the front page is a map released or factually verified by the Sheriff's office. These are amateur maps.

These people, well-meaning, but mistaken, in some ways, appear to be filling in parts of these maps, i.e. in this case, they write, "Videotaped summiting 13:30." No, she's not.

I'm responding to these parts together. Samantha's boyfriend was the one who identified this as being the trail up to Vesper Peak. You can see this in the comments on the original video. He is familiar with the area, and is also the one who made the main map on the findsamsayers.com website. While I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility for him to have been mistaken, I don't think that it's likely.

Futhermore, the maps that are shown there are for laypeople as you mentioned, and were made by the boyfriend Kevin Dares and his family, who have a good amount of experience in the area, so it's not just random inexperienced people that are filling in the map. This is to encourage witnesses to come forward and to examine their footage. It was also intended to help people who wanted to search, but couldn't read the actual search and rescue maps. The maps below the one that gives the timeline are the maps that were released by the sheriff's department and the family as the search was ongoing.

There are more official maps out there on the findsamsayers facebook page that were given to the boyfriend after he met with them last week. There is also an official Sam Sayers rescue group (this is private, you have to ask to join), which is only for people who can assist in the actual search. The maps are posted there as well. Based on what I have seen of them, and overlaying them with the laypeople maps, they pretty much line up.

Sayers was seen by multiple witnesses at the Vesper Peak summit at noon.

I finally had a moment to go back through some news articles, and the most recent of them do NOT place her at the summit at noon. Witnesses say she arrived at the summit at 3:00pm. Here are two such articles:

From August 27th, 2018:

Seattle woman still missing after not returning from hike nearly three weeks ago

From August 20th, 2018:
https://www.heraldnet.com/news/search-for-missing-hiker-nears-3-weeks-as-family-clings-to-hope/

Of note, in the NBC news article, they mentioned that the "lunch witness" saw her twice: once while eating lunch (supposedly around noon) and once while he was on the summit around 3:00 p.m. However, this article still contains the inaccuracy that he ate lunch with her (this isn't true as confirmed by the Sheriff's Department).

The Herald mentions: "A small rock climbing group bumped into her just before 3 p.m. at the summit. A man eating lunch at the top noticed Sayers, too. He did not eat with her, as the sheriff’s office had reported earlier, O’Keefe clarified Friday. That witness has been working with deputies to pinpoint her last known movement, possibly to the southeast."

The Herald is a more local newspaper, which tend to report better on these kinds of incidents, so I'm inclined to believe their version. However, in any recently published article, it is the 3:00pm summit that has been published.

But, I'm agreeing with the view that she was not on the move IF she had her phone. (Because she would have tried to call 911 anyway.)

I also had some time to look this up. The only thing I could find was on the family's page, which said they were able to "ping movement" on her phone. Here is the link to the Heavy article that mentions this Samantha ‘Sam’ Sayers Missing: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com, since I don't know if posting a link is acceptable.

Phone pings can be fickle things as we've seen in many cases. If the only two pings they have are the ones that are on the maps they posted, I stand by that that likely does not represent movement. The towers are too close together for that to be movement. If they had say 7-8 of them all moving in one direction, then yes, that would look more like movement to me.

One interesting thing about this is that it isn't mentioned in any media reports after August 9th, whereas I think this is very important information. Still, it would suggest that Sam was not able to use her phone to call for help, as you pointed out. Her family mentioned the phone was in a white case, so it could have had some extra protection from the elements.

 

[zecats]

I'm responding to these parts together. Samantha's boyfriend was the one who identified this as being the trail up to Vesper Peak. You can see this in the comments on the original video. He is familiar with the area, and is also the one who made the main map on the findsamsayers.com website. While I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility for him to have been mistaken, I don't think that it's likely.

Futhermore, the maps that are shown there are for laypeople as you mentioned, and were made by the boyfriend Kevin Dares and his family, who have a good amount of experience in the area, so it's not just random inexperienced people that are filling in the map. This is to encourage witnesses to come forward and to examine their footage. It was also intended to help people who wanted to search, but couldn't read the actual search and rescue maps. The maps below the one that gives the timeline are the maps that were released by the sheriff's department and the family as the search was ongoing.

There are more official maps out there on the findsamsayers facebook page that were given to the boyfriend after he met with them last week. There is also an official Sam Sayers rescue group (this is private, you have to ask to join), which is only for people who can assist in the actual search. The maps are posted there as well. Based on what I have seen of them, and overlaying them with the laypeople maps, they pretty much line up.



I finally had a moment to go back through some news articles, and the most recent of them do NOT place her at the summit at noon. Witnesses say she arrived at the summit at 3:00pm. Here are two such articles:

From August 27th, 2018:

Seattle woman still missing after not returning from hike nearly three weeks ago

From August 20th, 2018:
https://www.heraldnet.com/news/search-for-missing-hiker-nears-3-weeks-as-family-clings-to-hope/

Of note, in the NBC news article, they mentioned that the "lunch witness" saw her twice: once while eating lunch (supposedly around noon) and once while he was on the summit around 3:00 p.m. However, this article still contains the inaccuracy that he ate lunch with her (this isn't true as confirmed by the Sheriff's Department).

The Herald mentions: "A small rock climbing group bumped into her just before 3 p.m. at the summit. A man eating lunch at the top noticed Sayers, too. He did not eat with her, as the sheriff’s office had reported earlier, O’Keefe clarified Friday. That witness has been working with deputies to pinpoint her last known movement, possibly to the southeast."

The Herald is a more local newspaper, which tend to report better on these kinds of incidents, so I'm inclined to believe their version. However, in any recently published article, it is the 3:00pm summit that has been published.



I also had some time to look this up. The only thing I could find was on the family's page, which said they were able to "ping movement" on her phone. Here is the link to the Heavy article that mentions this Samantha ‘Sam’ Sayers Missing: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com, since I don't know if posting a link is acceptable.

Phone pings can be fickle things as we've seen in many cases. If the only two pings they have are the ones that are on the maps they posted, I stand by that that likely does not represent movement. The towers are too close together for that to be movement. If they had say 7-8 of them all moving in one direction, then yes, that would look more like movement to me.

One interesting thing about this is that it isn't mentioned in any media reports after August 9th, whereas I think this is very important information. Still, it would suggest that Sam was not able to use her phone to call for help, as you pointed out. Her family mentioned the phone was in a white case, so it could have had some extra protection from the elements.

Really helps clarify things. Thank you. I have not read any of the Facebook posts and only follow here on WS. The eye opener for me was the description of Vesper Peak Trail having a steep snow bank just before summit. So it’s very possible Sam was summitting in that photo and choosing the snow route up rather than the way around to the left.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Samantha's mother posted another video yesterday afternoon (9/2) at 1:45pm. I apologize if someone has already posted about this, but I truly felt horrible for her in this post. To be honest, she came across as very desperate, angry, and frustrated...all of which are part of the normal grieving process. But this time it was much more severe.

However, there was one thing that struck me that I think backs up a conversation that was previously on this thread and I think that gives us some insight into their search. Her mother said, "I don't care whatever experts say who say it's unlikely [that Sam's alive]. They don't know me; they don't know my daughter."

This is interesting because she said that they were working with the organization Find Me, which helped in the Mollie Tibbets case. I am wondering if they have begun to tell the family that they may need to switch gears to it being a recovery mission. It sounds like, however, she is rejecting any notion that she is dead, and may be rejecting help that could help locate a body.

At the same time...this Find Me organization differs very much from other organizations that help with SAR. A quick look over their website (Welcome to FIND ME - FIND ME) shows that they are made up of various law enforcement professionals. But, if you look at their board members, they include people who are psychics, mediums, and even claim to study "forensic astrology". As in, they use birth charts and the position of planets to solve crimes. This makes me nervous for the quality of services that they may be offering compared to other organizations that are purely science based.

Regardless, I think the mother is lashing out as the reality begins to set in that Samantha may not be coming back home. It just so happens that she is taking it out on the people who are likely trying to spare her pain.

 

[i'm someone]

Samantha's mother posted another video yesterday afternoon (9/2) at 1:45pm. I apologize if someone has already posted about this, but I truly felt horrible for her in this post. To be honest, she came across as very desperate, angry, and frustrated...all of which are part of the normal grieving process. But this time it was much more severe.

However, there was one thing that struck me that I think backs up a conversation that was previously on this thread and I think that gives us some insight into their search. Her mother said, "I don't care whatever experts say who say it's unlikely [that Sam's alive]. They don't know me; they don't know my daughter."


Regardless, I think the mother is lashing out as the reality begins to set in that Samantha may not be coming back home. It just so happens that she is taking it out on the people who are likely trying to spare her pain.

Respectfully snipped for space.
I think it''s probably likely that one of the reasons LE stopped the search(along with financial/logistics issues) was due to the resistance on the part of the family to turn the search from rescue to recovery. It seems the instant cadaver dogs were mentioned, everything stopped officially. Per a recent Facebook post, the SAR is actually scheduled to go back out tomorrow(9/4) to begin searching again via helicopter. I pretty much always live in the world of "anything's possible" but the longer this goes and the worse the weather gets, the more unlikely it is she will be found safe. moo

 

[PinkPrincessPoop]

At the same time...this Find Me organization differs very much from other organizations that help with SAR. A quick look over their website (Welcome to FIND ME - FIND ME) shows that they are made up of various law enforcement professionals. But, if you look at their board members, they include people who are psychics, mediums, and even claim to study "forensic astrology". As in, they use birth charts and the position of planets to solve crimes. This makes me nervous for the quality of services that they may be offering compared to other organizations that are purely science based.

What in the heck?! Not only that but their site includes, "mediumship" and "clairvoyance," as they put that alongside reputable skills such as Crime Scene Preservation and Mathematical Data Analysis.

Like I understand if you want to offer that for emotional support, but I don't like that they advertise that as "investigative services."

This makes me wonder.....who are they accepting to dole out these "services?" What do they look for in credentials?

Honestly seeing this makes me very frustrated.

 

[Phantasma2624]

What in the heck?! Not only that but their site includes, "mediumship" and "clairvoyance," as they put that alongside reputable skills such as Crime Scene Preservation and Mathematical Data Analysis.

Like I understand if you want to offer that for emotional support, but I don't like that they advertise that as "investigative services."

This makes me wonder.....who are they accepting to dole out these "services?" What do they look for in credentials?

Honestly seeing this makes me very frustrated.

I kept thinking about why the mother would have such a reaction on a video, and wondered whether so many people had contacted her to tell her that Samantha is probably dead. However, now that I keep thinking about it, I'm wondering if it's not individual people telling her this, but rather rescue organizers and organizations who are telling her this. I say this because she specifically mentioned something like, "don't tell me what your experts say" and "I don't care about the data" or something like that.

Put into context, I think this may be why they are having such difficulty getting dogs. Think about it. You are an SAR organization with very little time and resources. The resources you do have (i.e. handlers and dogs) cost about $50,000-100,000 to train and maintain. You get a call about this search that has been going on for a month now with no sign of the young woman who went missing. Other SAR dogs (14 of them--a huge number in terms of SAR) have already been there without finding any trace. Would you send your precious resources to this SAR? Or would you save them to not only protect them, but also in case there are other people who go missing and also need the dogs? I wonder if this is what the mother is referring to, because I could see an expert group saying, "Listen we can't send dogs out there, because it's likely she's not alive. We can't risk it. It's too much insurance-wise for us to send out dogs for someone who likely has already passed away."

Then, enter groups like Find Me, who have a genuinely good purpose, but it would appear dubious methods to say the least. These groups may be willing to work with her family, because they don't tend to rely on probabilities as much as other groups. I also can't get out of my head that they just worked on the Mollie Tibbetts case. The mother said they were "instrumental", but I don't know what that means. It makes me nervous that this organization is doing two high profile cases at once, and it would seem that they reached out to the families both times. However, I don't begrudge the family for accepting their help. I just wonder if any more established group like EquuSearch would work for them given the parameters that the family is setting.

 

[Michellesv44]

SAr said they would only return to searching if there was a credible break. Then there is mention of certain coordinates. Think they found something? Drone footage and keeping it under wraps? Mom looks frazzled

 

[Phantasma2624]

SAr said they would only return to searching if there was a credible break. Then there is mention of certain coordinates. Think they found something? Drone footage and keeping it under wraps? Mom looks frazzled

Given that any leads right now would likely come from the drone footage or the Facebook page, I don't think that they have anything new. They may just be appeasing the family and social media by flying again. I think if they had any actual leads, they would have groups on the ground searching, not flying a helicopter. However, they could be searching an area that is hard to get to by foot, so that's always an option. Still, I think that her mother would have mentioned a lead if it came in. I guess we'll have to wait until her evening update to be sure.