WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[zecats]

What in the heck?! Not only that but their site includes, "mediumship" and "clairvoyance," as they put that alongside reputable skills such as Crime Scene Preservation and Mathematical Data Analysis.

Like I understand if you want to offer that for emotional support, but I don't like that they advertise that as "investigative services."

This makes me wonder.....who are they accepting to dole out these "services?" What do they look for in credentials?

Honestly seeing this makes me very frustrated.

And do they take money for these “remarkable “ and “miraculous”services? I’m betting yes. Jmo

 

[Phantasma2624]

And do they take money for these “remarkable “ and “miraculous”services? I’m betting yes. Jmo

I'm not sure they would in this case. Seems to me the benefit here would be the publicity if they did find Samantha. Same with Mollie Tibbetts. This is what makes me nervous that they went right from Mollie Tibbetts to Samantha Sayers. Seems like they might just want the publicity.

 

[zecats]

I'm not sure they would in this case. Seems to me the benefit here would be the publicity if they did find Samantha. Same with Mollie Tibbetts. This is what makes me nervous that they went right from Mollie Tibbetts to Samantha Sayers. Seems like they might just want the publicity.

They didn’t seem to have any success in Mollie’s case though. That’s not the best publicity I would say.

 

[Phantasma2624]

They didn’t seem to have any success in Mollie’s case though. That’s not the best publicity I would say.

They told Samantha's mother they were "instrumental" in solving the case, although that could be puffing. I suppose we won't know until all the evidence comes out. However, I don't think it would ultimately matter if that's what they're doing. They just jump from one high profile case to the next until they're lucky enough to get a break and then use that publicity to drive themselves forward.

 

[zecats]

They told Samantha's mother they were "instrumental" in solving the case, although that could be puffing. I suppose we won't know until all the evidence comes out. However, I don't think it would ultimately matter if that's what they're doing. They just jump from one high profile case to the next until they're lucky enough to get a break and then use that publicity to drive themselves forward.

I can’t imagine even in the remotest case they WERE helpful in Mollie!s case that LE would ever fess up to clairvoyance and star charts being part of their sources. JM most serious O.

 

[sasha17]

SAr said they would only return to searching if there was a credible break. Then there is mention of certain coordinates. Think they found something? Drone footage and keeping it under wraps? Mom looks frazzled

I think they said they'd return if there was a credible break and/or if conditions allowed. From the Facebook post announcing the end of their search: "Sheriff’s Office Search and Rescue (SAR) personnel will continue to conduct spot checks of the area as snow continues to melt, as weather and other conditions safely allow."

Snohomish County SAR Facebook post

When I read about them returning on Tuesday for a two hour search, I figured it was due to the good weather conditions predicted for Tuesday.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I can’t imagine even in the remotest case they WERE helpful in Mollie!s case that LE would ever fess up to clairvoyance and star charts being part of their sources. JM most serious O.

This, to me, is the issue with their organization. I don't know how helpful they were, but they do offer some actual investigative services, such as dogs, crime scene analysis, etc. Maybe this is what they are referring to.

That being said, I'm pretty sure that Mollie's killer took the police to the location of her body, so it would seem they weren't instrumental in finding her.

 

[zecats]

This, to me, is the issue with their organization. I don't know how helpful they were, but they do offer some actual investigative services, such as dogs, crime scene analysis, etc. Maybe this is what they are referring to.

That being said, I'm pretty sure that Mollie's killer took the police to the location of her body, so it would seem they weren't instrumental in finding her.

Exactly. He did. And he was captured on video camera from a residence driving back and forth as she ran by. They located him due to a vigilant search for the black Malibu he was driving. Then he gave up her location.

 

[Suglo]

I followed the Mollie Tibbett’s case from the first day until she was found and he was arraigned. I never once heard of this Find Me group. (Insert eye roll here) I have seen some of the admins of the Find Sam FB page say they are going to be meeting with another group this week. The name of the group is the Jon Francis Foundation which seems like a legit organization.

Jon Francis Foundation | Missing Wilderness Search Support & Help

 

[AllGrace]

Missing Children and Adults in the USA on Facebook has two recent posts about this. The latest he tells people to stop contacting him about Sam. He has already told the family how to find her. The post prior he details at great length how the search has been botched and how it should be conducted.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I followed the Mollie Tibbett’s case from the first day until she was found and he was arraigned. I never once heard of this Find Me group. (Insert eye roll here) I have seen some of the admins of the Find Sam FB page say they are going to be meeting with another group this week. The name of the group is the Jon Francis Foundation which seems like a legit organization.

Jon Francis Foundation | Missing Wilderness Search Support & Help

Yes, I have heard of this organization before and remember the mother talking about them. Their webpage also looks so much better than Find Me. Additionally, they are partnered with other many well-known organizations, and they provide the families with many great additional resources. It's clear to me from their page that they are a dedicated group with a clear mission.

I hope that they do help the family find Samantha either dead or alive, and I hope that the family listens to what they have to say. As they say, no one should ever be abandoned. To me, this means either dead or alive. No matter what, Samantha deserves to be brought home.

 

[zecats]

Missing Children and Adults in the USA on Facebook has two recent posts about this. The latest he tells people to stop contacting him about Sam. He has already told the family how to find her. The post prior he details at great length how the search has been botched and how it should be conducted.

Sigh.

 

[kgreg2529]

Missing Children and Adults in the USA on Facebook has two recent posts about this. The latest he tells people to stop contacting him about Sam. He has already told the family how to find her. The post prior he details at great length how the search has been botched and how it should be conducted.

I just read his advice. Seems he knows what he’s talking about. It’s now seeming like the dogs may be a no go at this point.

 

[AllGrace]

I just read his advice. Seems he knows what he’s talking about. It’s now seeming like the dogs may be a no go at this point.

I have enjoyed reading back in all his posts. He has had many successes (even if recovery only) and details how he did it. I would use him for sure if a loved one went missing!!! Sam’s mom wouldn’t appreciate him though as he mentions she could no longer be alive.

 

[Phantasma2624]

Missing Children and Adults in the USA on Facebook has two recent posts about this. The latest he tells people to stop contacting him about Sam. He has already told the family how to find her. The post prior he details at great length how the search has been botched and how it should be conducted.

I just read that post. I won't post it all here because wow it is long, but the general idea is that he hopes that the family can put together a group of air scent dogs following his guidelines (he is only a consultant). He also suggests that they ask the following questions:

"Did she fall and possibly hit her head causing her to lose her direction of travel? Does she suffer from any medical issues that may hurt her reasoning skills?

Near the summit there are crevasses. Both rock, snow and ice. There’s also unstable rock, and rock fall. There are several mining caves and natural caves in the area as well as rock walls (Cliffs).

Did she make it back to the trailhead and did someone (bad) grab her and remove her from the area? While this isn’t usually the case, it did happen to a young lady last year on a similar hike.

Did she simply fall and get hurt or die?

Was she taken by a predator? Cougar or bear?

A trained Search dog team can answer all of these questions.

If a person becomes disoriented, they give off “Stress scent”."

Still, some of this post sounds like Monday-Morning quarterbacking. To be clear, I don't doubt his expertise, but some of these things that he is criticizing, he may not be 100% clear on law enforcement's thinking process, or he is relying too heavily on details from the family.

First, he criticizes the police for not setting up a containment zone. This was impossible at the beginning, because no one knew where or when she went missing. The only thing they could have done was shut down the whole park, which is hardly a containment area. They had no witnesses for a few days until it started making the news, and certainly no crucial ones. Once they did get witnesses, they were shutting down trails so that the dogs could search, effectively creating these containment zones.

Second, he says they could have searched at night. This is true. SAR dogs are trained to work through the night. However, there were only 14 dogs for the entire park. Certainly they couldn't expect both dog and handler to go 24 hours without any rest at all. This is inhumane. Again, there were only 14 dogs, so if they switched them out, say 50/50, that would mean only 7 dogs for miles and miles worth of area. The police might have thought it better to let the dogs rest during the night so they could fly the helicopter, which they did.

Third, he indicates that the police used FLIR and Infrared technology too late. As per the police department, as soon as they were able, they sent up helicopters equipped with FLIR technology. He also indicated the weakness of this, as FLIR cannot detect anything under about 3 feet worth of brush. This is an important consideration if Samantha was immobile and laying down. They also used Infrared at some point. Importantly, the mother accused them of not using either of these, but she was incorrect. The police department addressed this after she sent a swarm of people to their Facebook page and had them call the governor. The family has never addressed the fact that they said police weren't using FLIR when they actually were.

That being said, his post is very interesting for those who are interested in SAR dogs and how they work. The rest of the post details the advice that he gave the family on how they should be searching.

I am not a die hard police supporter in terms of thinking that they always do the right thing. I'm sure they bungled many things in this search, just like they do in many missing persons investigations. But I also think it's unfair to criticize the process without even having access to the public record yet. Samantha's mother said that that wouldn't even be available until October.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I just read his advice. Seems he knows what he’s talking about. It’s now seeming like the dogs may be a no go at this point.

I agree. I think the mother mentioned this before that the dogs wouldn't be as effective now, because of so much time that had passed. Still, I guess the family is still holding out hope that a dog might find something.

I have enjoyed reading back in all his posts. He has had many successes (even if recovery only) and details how he did it. I would use him for sure if a loved one went missing!!! Sam’s mom wouldn’t appreciate him though as he mentions she could no longer be alive.

His posts are really amazing! Like I said, he obviously knows what he is talking about. Even in the short time he has known about Samantha's case, he has helped solve 7 cases at least it seems! Also, the rest of his post about how to actually do a search is fascinating.

 

[i'm someone]

All of those questions he asked are a no-no, at least on the FB page. But I am still looking at every drone photo, footage and anything else they post. I've sent in some things, all nothing. But the family has to understand that they are asking the general public to actually look for someone who may be in a state some of us would be very shaken to see, either on footage or in person. There is only so much you can ask of people who are not trained for certain experiences like an EMT or recovery crew is. I am trying to word this as gently as possible, mostly out of habit on the fb page, but if my eyes settle on a deceased individual, it is going to affect me for a long long time. Nevertheless, I can't go to sleep at night before reviewing footage, thinking about her out there. At some point it might become way too long for anyone to be alive and I will stop looking. Because I'd really rather not see that.

 

[Phantasma2624]

All of those questions he asked are a no-no, at least on the FB page. But I am still looking at every drone photo, footage and anything else they post. I've sent in some things, all nothing. But the family has to understand that they are asking the general public to actually look for someone who may be in a state some of us would be very shaken to see, either on footage or in person. There is only so much you can ask of people who are not trained for certain experiences like an EMT or recovery crew is. I am trying to word this as gently as possible, mostly out of habit on the fb page, but if my eyes settle on a deceased individual, it is going to affect me for a long long time. Nevertheless, I can't go to sleep at night before reviewing footage, thinking about her out there. At some point it might become way too long for anyone to be alive and I will stop looking. Because I'd really rather not see that.

Exactly. Because the family is so focused on finding her alive, I don't think they have given that much thought. Having read a few books on scavenging, and having been to a body farm, I can tell you that it's no easy task, particularly when a body has been exposed to the elements for this long.

Not to be graphic, but there exists the very real reality, too, that we may no longer be looking for a whole person. That is, if she happened to perish early, and has been out in the elements this long, it's likely scavengers found her. In many jungle disappearances, skulls are found, feet still in boots are found, and occasionally a pelvis or femur. Sometimes they are found miles from each other. I would hate to think of them publishing any footage that would inadvertently show Samantha in such a state for all the internet to see. I think in their mind they'll see her hunched over in cave, or someone will find her gear...no one has been thinking of the other things that someone might find.

 

[AllGrace]

Second, he says they could have searched at night. This is true. SAR dogs are trained to work through the night. However, there were only 14 dogs for the entire park. Certainly they couldn't expect both dog and handler to go 24 hours without any rest at all. This is inhumane. Again, there were only 14 dogs, so if they switched them out, say 50/50, that would mean only 7 dogs for miles and miles worth of area. The police might have thought it better to let the dogs rest during the night so they could fly the helicopter, which they did.

I believe his comments meant they should have used the dogs mainly at night for two reasons he stated. One,anything over 75 degrees is inhumane to the dogs. Second, lost people usually rest at night and could then be found easier.

 

[Phantasma2624]

I believe his comments meant they should have used the dogs mainly at night for two reasons he stated. One,anything over 75 degrees is inhumane to the dogs. Second, lost people usually rest at night and could then be found easier.

I see. That makes more sense. I wonder if the terrain was a factor in their decision. He says he would only suggest trail-walking, but based on the few videos we have, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of trail. There's scrambles, cliffs, etc. that could cause a lot of problems in the dark. It might have been a smart choice on behalf of law enforcement to keep them out during the day due to the terrain constraints.