WA WA - Samantha Sayers, 28, Vesper Peak, North Cascades, 1 August 2018

[Onebest]

[

I'm curious though, do you have any thoughts for their suggestion that a group use this as a "training" exercise? Does that actually make any difference in these cases?[/QUOTE]

In WA mission numbers are given for training exercises too. There is a form, you fill it out saying what, when, who etc, it goes theough emergency management and then to the state. A number is assigned and everyone has to sign in and out. If you are participating in a team event, on a planned approved, training time then you have coverage. There really is no way around the system if you follow the rules.

If you want to break the rules then so be it, but no one is fooled much less the sheriffs office or the state of WA who has a list of all certified teams.

There are independent K9 handlers that work on their own who will deploy at their own risk. If I had to guess I would say that’s probably who might come to help. Maybe affiliated with the Francis foundation that has come alongside the family efforts? and perhaps they have their own liability system. I am not familiar.

No judgement here, just offering info on how stuff works and why.

JMO

 

[Alexsea]

I suppose that I thought that if someone went out there on their own and volunteered their time that the family couldn't sue because they weren't out anything. For example, the woman that they had helping them stayed at a house free of charge, and I don't think they covered any of her expenses. So I was kind of at a loss for what they could sue for. That being said, I guess I could see that happening in other circumstances were maybe more expenses were covered.

Understood. And realistically, it probably wouldn’t happen. But I’m a worst case scenario person.

 

[Onebest]

I suppose that I thought that if someone went out there on their own and volunteered their time that the family couldn't sue because they weren't out anything. For example, the woman that they had helping them stayed at a house free of charge, and I don't think they covered any of her expenses. So I was kind of at a loss for what they could sue for. That being said, I guess I could see that happening in other circumstances were maybe more expenses were covered.

Family members will sue for reasons such as if they think the search wasnt planned correctly, their loved one wasnt extracted fast enough, their family member wasnt found and they think it was negligent training or search strategy, all sorts of reasons. I could look some law suits up but most folks here google better than I do You would think it shouldn't happen but sadly it does.
JMO

 

[Phantasma2624]

In WA mission numbers are given for training exercises too. There is a form, you fill it out saying what, when, who etc, it goes theough emergency management and then to the state. A number is assigned and everyone has to sign in and out. If you are participating in a team event, on a planned approved, training time then you have coverage. There really is no way around the system if you follow the rules.

If you want to break the rules then so be it, but no one is fooled much less the sheriffs office or the state of WA who has a list of all certified teams.

There are independent K9 handlers that work on their own who will deploy at their own risk. If I had to guess I would say that’s probably who might come to help. Maybe affiliated with the Francis foundation that has come alongside the family efforts? and perhaps they have their own liability system. I am not familiar.

No judgement here, just offering info on how stuff works and why.

JMO

This is very helpful in understanding why they are having such difficulty getting SAR dogs out there, or really just any SAR groups at all. Sorry to bother you with another question, and maybe @Alexsea would know, but do SAR groups also consider the risk vs reward of a given situation? We've talked about this before on this thread, and the question was generally, would an SAR group look at a case like Sam's and decide that sending people out onto the mountain to look specifically for a living person is just not worth the risk given that she has been missing for so long and the probability is low that she would survive? In my head, I can imagine a group doing this cost/benefit analysis even if the police were willing to sign off and let them search, but it would be helpful to hear from you both, if you know!

 

[Satchie]

I think that although there may not be official volunteers, people with SAR experience will likely still go out looking, in their own capacity as private citizens, just going to explore the area, take the dog for a walk, etc. This seems to be how Joe Keller was found, from a link posted above.

ETA: Also, as I recall, the recovery of the German family from Death Valley was a private effort by people with some SAR training, it became a kind of mystery they just wanted to solve.

 

[Onebest]

This is very helpful in understanding why they are having such difficulty getting SAR dogs out there, or really just any SAR groups at all. Sorry to bother you with another question, and maybe @Alexsea would know, but do SAR groups also consider the risk vs reward of a given situation? We've talked about this before on this thread, and the question was generally, would an SAR group look at a case like Sam's and decide that sending people out onto the mountain to look specifically for a living person is just not worth the risk given that she has been missing for so long and the probability is low that she would survive? In my head, I can imagine a group doing this cost/benefit analysis even if the police were willing to sign off and let them search, but it would be helpful to hear from you both, if you know!

The short answer is no. Search and Rescue will deploy years after a person has gone missing. Follow the case of Kris Fowler who went missing on the PCT in 2016. This case is still very active by both LE and volunteer effort spurred by Kris’s Mom Sally.

The search for Jacob Grey went on for a long time starting in 2017 with multiple missions. He was finally found 10 miles away from Last Known by a lake, pretty far where we were concentrating the search that started where his bike was found by the road.. He was finally found by biologists working in the area.
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/n...-missing-since-2017-in-olympic-national-park/

Some of these efforts are quiet and not highly publicized but if there is a lead or something to follow, its done. There are organizations who work on cold cases and will come alongside a family privately to help but if they go out looking for remains LE is called first for approval.

BUT we all know there are some cases that go by the way side and thats where family advocates are imperative. The squeeky wheel and all that.

Good questions.

JMO

 

[Onebest]

I think that although there may not be official volunteers, people with SAR experience will likely still go out looking, in their own capacity as private citizens, just going to explore the area, take the dog for a walk, etc. This seems to be how Joe Keller was found, from a link posted above.

ETA: Also, as I recall, the recovery of the German family from Death Valley was a private effort by people with some SAR training, it became a kind of mystery they just wanted to solve.

Or HUNTERS!! They can be super helpful!!

 

[Phantasma2624]

The short answer is no. Search and Rescue will deploy years after a person has gone missing. Follow the case of Kris Fowler who went missing on the PCT in 2016. This case is still very active by both LE and volunteer effort spurred by Kris’s Mom Sally.

The search for Jacob Grey went on for a long time starting in 2017 with multiple missions. He was finally found 10 miles away from Last Known by a lake, pretty far where we were concentrating the search that started where his bike was found by the road.. He was finally found by biologists working in the area.
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/n...-missing-since-2017-in-olympic-national-park/

Some of these efforts are quiet and not highly publicized but if there is a lead or something to follow, its done. There are organizations who work on cold cases and will come alongside a family privately to help but if they go out looking for remains LE is called first for approval.

BUT we all know there are some cases that go by the way side and thats where family advocates are imperative. The squeeky wheel and all that.

Good questions.

JMO

Thank you for answering all these questions! The family really has some tough road ahead of them given that they can't find SAR groups that can self-deploy easily and on top of that there being no leads to follow. I think that was the police's main problem too. They simply said that there are no leads, no indication of where Samantha went, and with out them they can't continue to search blindly. Hopefully the Francis Foundation can give the family some much needed guidance here...or insurance...or both.

 

[Alexsea]

When I first signed up for SAR I was told:
Your first priority is to yourself. Keep yourself functioning and safe. Your second priority is your team. Keep them in the game. That includes dogs and horses. Your final priority is your search subject. That’s how we rolled.

 

[StarrChance]

When I first signed up for SAR I was told:
Your first priority is to yourself. Keep yourself functioning and safe. Your second priority is your team. Keep them in the game. That includes dogs and horses. Your final priority is your search subject. That’s how we rolled.

Having a police officer in the family, that’s wise advice , whether people or animals!

 

[StarrChance]

As many others here concerned about Samantha mothers loss (stages of grief) being played out in the media, it’s heartbreaking
She seems to be able to see a future in advocating for search n rescue, and from what I have followed here from posters, the SAR seems well researched and thought out.

I mean this with respect, we don’t know the outcome yet.
What I have taken away from this tragic event is...
My son (in Australia) “bush walks” he only does day trips with friends but also often by himself, I try to keep updates where he is but impossible as a 24year old!
All I would like her to know from this tragic situation is I am getting a backpack with at least three day survival kit for him to use (and he agrees). I guess I’m trying to say there will be other avenues she will be able to process when the time comes.

 

[EmmaRose]

I just wanted to thank all the SAR people for their dedication on this and every search you go on. You are special people!

 

[GraceG]

In the replies under one of the comments (close to the bottom) for this video there are two close up stills of who they say is Sam. It really looks like she's not wearing a jacket. Her arms look bare to me. Yet there is snow on the ground. Maybe I just need new glasses?

If you look are her hiking photos on Instatram she hikes fairly lightly clothed, often just wearing a sports bra covered by a light hoodie. Though there is snow on the ground the day temps could have been in the upper 70's.

This is very helpful in understanding why they are having such difficulty getting SAR dogs out there, or really just any SAR groups at all. Sorry to bother you with another question, and maybe @Alexsea would know, but do SAR groups also consider the risk vs reward of a given situation? We've talked about this before on this thread, and the question was generally, would an SAR group look at a case like Sam's and decide that sending people out onto the mountain to look specifically for a living person is just not worth the risk given that she has been missing for so long and the probability is low that she would survive? In my head, I can imagine a group doing this cost/benefit analysis even if the police were willing to sign off and let them search, but it would be helpful to hear from you both, if you know!

To determine the duration of a specific search, SAR teams DO pull survivability statistics (how many people die after one day, two days, etc., in similar terrain and conditions) and the decision to suspend the search is often done with the consult of someone that's an expert in wilderness medicine. Sam went out with food and water for 1 day and with only a sports bra and light jacket and a small backpack. They would have factored that in, along with any clues found before suspending an official search.

 

[moonriverfarm]

Perhaps Sam's mom can use this tragedy (in the future) to start a movement for ALL hikers to have access to/wear GPS locators - either purchased or rented at the park they hike in. Right now her grief is clouding her reality. I do think she is at risk of a mental breakdown if Sam's body is not found soon.

 

[Suglo]

In the replies under one of the comments (close to the bottom) for this video there are two close up stills of who they say is Sam. It really looks like she's not wearing a jacket. Her arms look bare to me. Yet there is snow on the ground. Maybe I just need new glasses?

There was good weather that day on the mountain. She had been hiking up hill for hours. She supposedly only had a sports bra and a lightweight reddish/wine colored jacket with her. I don’t see that color so you are probably right. She’s hiking in her sports bra. Could be why they are also having a hard time spotting her in drone footage. That jacket could have been in her backpack so nothing she is wearing stands out against the rocks and foliage.

 

[Lilibet]

While not perfect, a satellite-based rescue phone is something to consider, although maybe it’s not practical for a day hike. It saved the life of the woman in this article. There’s a grateful and sweet comment on the article from her dad, thanking SAR and commending his daughter for packing the right communication equipment to assist in her own rescue.

“The Curry County Sheriff’s Office said Edwards fell off the trail and sustained substantial injuries including lacerations to the back of her head. Edwards was able to text her fiancé with her location using a satellite-based rescue phone.”

Injured hiker rescued near Agness - KOBI-TV NBC5 / KOTI-TV NBC2

 

[ees]

Perhaps Sam's mom can use this tragedy (in the future) to start a movement for ALL hikers to have access to/wear GPS locators - either purchased or rented at the park they hike in. Right now her grief is clouding her reality. I do think she is at risk of a mental breakdown if Sam's body is not found soon.

A GPS locator typically costs $300+, with a monthly fee on top of that. There have been many situations where a user has pushed their SOS button when they could have self-rescued. Using a GPS locator should supplement an experienced hiker's emergency plan, not be it.

 

[cybervampira]

Video at link.

Michigan family of hiker missing in Washington mountains keeping hope alive

After more than three weeks of constantly looking for Samantha, authorities suspended search operations on August 23. The Snohomish County Sheriff’s Office reports that in those three weeks, search operations included 357 hours for air operations, 105 hours for drone operations, 82 hours for the Marine Unit to support search teams going into the search area from Spada Lake and 329 hours for Sheriff’s Office SAR personnel.

 

[moonriverfarm]

I don't care what it costs - being able to be found if hurt would make it worth every dime. And maybe if more were purchased, cheaper versions would be manufactured. Heck, wear a fitbit - they can be tracked until the battery runs out, which for me is several days.

 

[mojave_red]

RE: Satellite Communicator / GPS Locator
My daughters made us buy one because my husband and I tend to travel on paved roads that have no cell-phone connectivity, and they worry about us.

It was pricey - DeLorme InReach Explorer ran us about $300 - and yes, there's a monthly fee of about $30...
But in terms of peace-of-mind, priceless.

It "pings" (for want of a better word) satellites frequently, and plots our locations and waypoints via a map on a web application. Access to the web app is via our determination - it's not public.

There's an option to send / receive 160-character text messages, so if we make an unscheduled stop, we can convey our safety (or lack thereof.)

We can trigger an SOS if we need it.

All things considered, and given that we've never NEEDED it, we're considering it cheap insurance - no offense to insurers intended.