WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #8

[Nova]

That's why experts WERE allowed from both sides and the jurors educated themselves to the evidence... then found both AK and RS guilty.

But it is a fact that innocent people are convicted. Alarmingly often, as it turns out. So the constant repetition that the judges and jury reached a certain decision proves what, exactly?

 

[Allusonz]

Ron Hendry is very good and his job and has an excellent reputation for accuracy and integrity. That being said, he is also a hired gun who works for lawyer who are either trying to get clients off or win judgments against insurance companies. He is in the business of analyzing known facts in order to interpret them in a manner that is most favorable to his client. He is not in the business of determining the truth. In criminal trials, his job is to create reasonable doubt. I'm sure his expertise has saved more than one innocent client but I am certain that most of his clients were guilty and he will be the first to admit it.

His site is excellent and anyone who wants to understand what really happened should read it and understand his arguments. But, for the most part, what he offers are "alternative explanations", not the "probable explanations" of important aspects of this crime.

Then if he is a hired gun for the defense why did he not testify at the trial?

Yes he is very respected, and yes they are hired for a purpose, but if they are hired then they testify for the client

 

[Allusonz]

"This is an Italian court case, it's not an American court case and, so, in the Italian system the jury's not sequestered, and the jury pays a lot of attention to what's happening, other than the testimony," said Nadeau

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/60456442.html

 

[Allusonz]

Forget the fairy wings with glitter in this case i am going to need rocket boosters

 

[Allusonz]

That's why experts WERE allowed from both sides and the jurors educated themselves to the evidence... then found both AK and RS guilty.

Then convicted people are sitting in an Italian jail without sufficient evidence to put them there

 

[Nova]

"This is an Italian court case, it's not an American court case and, so, in the Italian system the jury's not sequestered, and the jury pays a lot of attention to what's happening, other than the testimony," said Nadeau

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/60456442.html

AFAIK, most American juries are no longer sequestered either. I think it's just human nature when one is in the middle of a high-profile case to want to see what the world is saying about it. And I think it must be very difficult not to be influenced.

 

[sherlockh]

posted so many times fred take the time to look at all the posts.......

9 signed the open letter....as any person that has been involved with these discussions should by now know

That is strange. I only see 2 signatures?

 

[trillian]

A few scattered thoughts...

Are there professionals who have signed on to AK and RS's guilt? Like, known experts with verifiable resumes and so forth? (beside ILE or anyone paid , that is) Surely there must be a few around?


Also, I'm thinking of the prosecutions ToD after 11:30. That leaves MK home for 2 hours at least (depending on when she was interrupted). I have not heard anything to suggest she watched TV, studied, finished her laundry, texted, emailed, phoned, used her computer, read a book, changed into sleep clothes, took off her jacket, ate or drank something in the kitchen, etc... What was she "supposedly" doing for 2.5 hours?

To me, it is much more plausible that there is no evidence of her activities because she was attacked much earlier, likely just after arriving home. (The stomach contents also make perfect sense in such a scenario)

I guess one could say that she did have some activities in that she "supposedly" hit random numbers on her phone while playing around with it (because thats what 21yr olds think of as fun times!) and then deleted a msg without opening it. Surely she had better things to do.

 

[Nova]

A few scattered thoughts...

Are there professionals who have signed on to AK and RS's guilt? Like, known experts with verifiable resumes and so forth? (beside ILE or anyone paid , that is) Surely there must be a few around?


Also, I'm thinking of the prosecutions ToD after 11:30. That leaves MK home for 2 hours at least (depending on when she was interrupted). I have not heard anything to suggest she watched TV, studied, finished her laundry, texted, emailed, phoned, used her computer, read a book, changed into sleep clothes, took off her jacket, ate or drank something in the kitchen, etc... What was she "supposedly" doing for 2.5 hours?

To me, it is much more plausible that there is no evidence of her activities because she was attacked much earlier, likely just after arriving home. (The stomach contents also make perfect sense in such a scenario)

I guess one could say that she did have some activities in that she "supposedly" hit random numbers on her phone while playing around with it (because thats what 21yr olds think of as fun times!) and then deleted a msg without opening it. Surely she had better things to do.

I asked above whether much was made of the timeline at the trial. RS seems to have been at his computer until 9:46; somebody is trying to access MK's bank by 10 and at least one account has the cell phones discarded in the garden by 10:13. Not enough time for RS to kill MK (or for AK, unless she did indeed leave RS and go out at 9) and discard the phones.

Likewise, as you point out, we have some phone activity by MK between 9 and 9:40, IIRC, then nothing until the odd call to the bank and then nothing after that. (I believe the prosecution claimed MK was studying for a test.) And yet MK never took off her jacket. I would think somebody would have asked AK or one of MK's friends if MK was in the habit of lounging in the evening wearing her outer jacket. It's possible. Maybe they kept it cool inside the apartment.

But I can't believe nobody thought to ask! And I don't understand why the timeline wasn't questioned by the defense.

 

[trillian]

Likewise, as you point out, we have some phone activity by MK between 9 and 9:40, IIRC, then nothing until the odd call to the bank and then nothing after that.

What activity happened between 9 and 9:40? I thought there was a break between the 8:56 call and the "hung up on voice mail" and "dialed the bank wrong" calls around 10pm.

 

[Nova]

What activity happened between 9 and 9:40? I thought there was a break between the 8:56 call and the "hung up on voice mail" and "dialed the bank wrong" calls around 10pm.

I thought she made a couple of calls in there. I could well be wrong. I'll see if I can find a timeline.

ETA: This timeline...

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2008/10/27/meredith-kercher-timeline-her-last-12-hours/



...puts the call to her mother at 9:30. That's what I was thinking of. I don't have a link but one source I read said MK made it home at 9 or shortly thereafter, but obviously that's wrong if she called her mother at 8:56.

I don't know how to resolve these discrepancies. But I will happily bow to your wisdom if you can.

 

[Allusonz]

I thought she made a couple of calls in there. I could well be wrong. I'll see if I can find a timeline.

ETA: This timeline...

http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2008/10/27/meredith-kercher-timeline-her-last-12-hours/



...puts the call to her mother at 9:30. That's what I was thinking of. I don't have a link but one source I read said MK made it home at 9 or shortly thereafter, but obviously that's wrong if she called her mother at 8:56.

I don't know how to resolve these discrepancies. But I will happily bow to your wisdom if you can.

maybe this will help ..... malkmus posted the telephone log a bit back and i saved it...thus ty Malkmus

Calls from November 1 after 18:00

Time Length Type From To Location (Content Summary)

20:18:12 1sec SMS Patrick Amanda via Ulisse Rocchi (You don't have to come to work tonight)
20:35:48 1sec SMS Amanda Patrick corso Garibaldi ("Ci vediamo piu tardi. Buona serata.")
20:42:58 221sec Call Dr Soll Raffaele corso Garibaldi (Raffaele mentions washing dishes, leak under sink, trip to Gubbio)
20:56:?? 1sec Call MeredithUK Arline via della Pergola (Call didn't go through)
21:58:?? 1sec Call MeredithUK ans. serv. via della Pergola (Call didn't go through)
22:00:00 1sec Call MeredithUK Abbey via della Pergola ("Abbey" dialed without international prefix, didn't go through)
22:13:19 9sec GPRS Internet WAP MeredithUK via della Pergola (Aborted connection of undetermined type)


Calls from November 2

Time Length Type From To Location (Content summary)

00:10:31 1sec Call ? Meredith UK via Sperandio

06:02:69 1sec SMS Dr Soll Raffaele corso Garibaldi (Buona notte, SMS sent by Dr Soll at 23:14 on Nov 1)
09:24 248sec Call Dr Soll Raffaele (Absent from mobile records, no cell tower mentioned)
09:29 38sec Call Dr Soll Raffaele (Absent from mobile records, no cell tower mentioned)
09:30:42 41sec Call Dr Soll Raffaele corso Garibaldi (Haven't you left for Gubbio yet?)
12:07:12 16sec Call Amanda MeredithUK corso Garibaldi (Ringing no answer)
12:08:44 58sec Call Amanda Filomena corso Garibaldi (Saw worrisome things in the house, door open, traces of blood)
12:11:02 3sec Call Amanda MeredithIT corso Garibaldi (Voice mail)
12:11:54 4sec Call Amanda MeredithUK corso Garibaldi ( Automatic voice saying "out of service")
12:12:35 36sec Call Filomena Amanda corso Garibaldi (Unsuccessful?)
12:20:44 65sec Call Filomena Amanda corso Garibaldi (Unsuccessful?)
12:34:56 48sec Call Filomena Amanda via della Pergola (Broken window, room ransacked...)
12:35:08 135sec Call Raffaele Vodafone via della Pergola (credit recharge)
12:38:17 1sec SMS Vodafone Raffaele via della Pergola (confirm recharge)
12:40:03 67sec Call Dr Soll Raffaele via della Pergola
12:47:23 88sec Call Amanda Edda via della Pergola (There are some strange things here)
12:50:34 39sec Call Raffaele Vanessa via della Pergola (Call to Vanessa for advice)
12:51:40 169sec Call Raffaele 112 via della Pergola (first 112 call)
12:54:39 57sec Call Raffaele 112 via della Pergola (second 112 call)
13:24:18 162sec Call Amanda Edda via della Pergola ("A foot")
13:27:32 26sec Call Amanda Chris? via della Pergola (Another Seattle number)
13:29:00 296sec Call Carabinieri Amanda via della Pergola (Asking for directions to cottage)

 

[Nova]

Thank you, Allusonz (and Malkmus and Trillian).

So Trillian is right (no surprise there) that MK's first call at (or near) the cottage is at 8:56. The question remains, however, whether the the aborted call to MK's bank and the brief internet usage at 10:13 came from MK or her assailant(s). I guess I can see why the defense didn't think they could make anything of that.

Because the first call MK's phone receives at the disposal site isn't until 10 minutes after midnight on Nov. 2. (And not at 10:13, as at least one site has it. That's what confused me.)

No wonder the prosecution wants to put the murder at 11:30! Except that then we have MK wearing her outer jacket for 2-and-a-half hours without ever changing into something more comfortable!

***

One additional thing I notice is that AK's FIRST call to MK's phone is at shortly after noon on Nov. 2 and lasts for 16 seconds! It's only the later calls that are so brief. Those who insist AK knew MK wouldn't answer gloss over this first call. Personally, I think once you've called someone and they've failed to answer, it's quite natural to wait shorter times on future calls.

 

[miley]

Thank you, Allusonz (and Malkmus and Trillian).

So Trillian is right (no surprise there) that MK's first call at (or near) the cottage is at 8:56. The question remains, however, whether the the aborted call to MK's bank and the brief internet usage at 10:13 came from MK or her assailant(s). I guess I can see why the defense didn't think they could make anything of that.

Because the first call MK's phone receives at the disposal site isn't until 10 minutes after midnight on Nov. 2. (And not at 10:13, as at least one site has it. That's what confused me.)

No wonder the prosecution wants to put the murder at 11:30! Except that then we have MK wearing her outer jacket for 2-and-a-half hours without ever changing into something more comfortable!

***

One additional thing I notice is that AK's FIRST call to MK's phone is at shortly after noon on Nov. 2 and lasts for 16 seconds! It's only the later calls that are so brief. Those who insist AK knew MK wouldn't answer gloss over this first call. Personally, I think once you've called someone and they've failed to answer, it's quite natural to wait shorter times on future calls.

I think you had it right the first time:

9:58 pm (21:58) outgoing voicemail
10:00 pm (22:00) outgoing Abbey Bank w/out country code
10:13 pm (22:13) incoming pic. message. doesn't go through

...then on Nov. 2 10:31 am, incoming call from UK.

I'm confused about the towers. They don't match.

 

[Allusonz]

Thank you, Allusonz (and Malkmus and Trillian).

So Trillian is right (no surprise there) that MK's first call at (or near) the cottage is at 8:56. The question remains, however, whether the the aborted call to MK's bank and the brief internet usage at 10:13 came from MK or her assailant(s). I guess I can see why the defense didn't think they could make anything of that.

Because the first call MK's phone receives at the disposal site isn't until 10 minutes after midnight on Nov. 2. (And not at 10:13, as at least one site has it. That's what confused me.)

No wonder the prosecution wants to put the murder at 11:30! Except that then we have MK wearing her outer jacket for 2-and-a-half hours without ever changing into something more comfortable!

***

One additional thing I notice is that AK's FIRST call to MK's phone is at shortly after noon on Nov. 2 and lasts for 16 seconds! It's only the later calls that are so brief. Those who insist AK knew MK wouldn't answer gloss over this first call. Personally, I think once you've called someone and they've failed to answer, it's quite natural to wait shorter times on future calls.

There is a tiny detail with respect to cell phone calls and providers that many miss is that the cell phone provider only logs the time it takes prior to the redirect to the voicemail (this is pretty common knowledge)

Here is one example

12:11:02 (3 seconds) the Vodafone number 348-4673711 belonging to Meredith (this is the one [i.e. SIM card] registered to Romanelli Filomena) is called and its answering service is activated

AK states that it continued to ring which is what actually happens even though the log shows a 3 second call

Many have made a big deal of the fact that it was only a 3 sec call when in fact that is all that the provider would log. For anyone that does a great deal of travelling you will probably note this on your own bills

 

[Allusonz]

The other thing to remember is that RS defense did a test with respect to where the cell phone was for IIRC the 10:12 call and it was determined that the phone would of been enroute between the cottage and the garden where the cell phone was found

The defense had the idea of testing an area between Meredith’s apartment and the garden where they were found and discovered that this particular mast (the one showing the 10:13 call) covers an area between Meredith’s flat and the garden where they were found, meaning that at 10:13 the phone was in route to the garden and Meredith was already dead.

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/search?q=cell+phone+test

 

[Nova]

I think you had it right the first time:

9:58 pm (21:58) outgoing voicemail
10:00 pm (22:00) outgoing Abbey Bank w/out country code
10:13 pm (22:13) incoming pic. message. doesn't go through

...then on Nov. 2 10:31 am, incoming call from UK.

I'm confused about the towers. They don't match.

No, I was relying on a source that claimed the phone was already at the disposal site for the 10:13 abortive picture transmission. That does not appear to be the case since the cell tower is the same as for the other calls at the cottage.

I don't see a 10:31 a.m. call from the UK the next morning. What is your source for that? (You can just tell me. I don't need a formal cite.)

 

[Nova]

There is a tiny detail with respect to cell phone calls and providers that many miss is that the cell phone provider only logs the time it takes prior to the redirect to the voicemail (this is pretty common knowledge)

Here is one example

12:11:02 (3 seconds) the Vodafone number 348-4673711 belonging to Meredith (this is the one [i.e. SIM card] registered to Romanelli Filomena) is called and its answering service is activated

AK states that it continued to ring which is what actually happens even though the log shows a 3 second call

Many have made a big deal of the fact that it was only a 3 sec call when in fact that is all that the provider would log. For anyone that does a great deal of travelling you will probably note this on your own bills

Thanks, Allusonz. I didn't know that and it's really important. I don't know whether the prosecution mentioned the "too short" calls at trial, but they certainly poisoned the well by talking about them to the press.

 

[Nova]

The other thing to remember is that RS defense did a test with respect to where the cell phone was for IIRC the 10:12 call and it was determined that the phone would of been enroute between the cottage and the garden where the cell phone was found

The defense had the idea of testing an area between Meredith’s apartment and the garden where they were found and discovered that this particular mast (the one showing the 10:13 call) covers an area between Meredith’s flat and the garden where they were found, meaning that at 10:13 the phone was in route to the garden and Meredith was already dead.

http://viewfromwilmington.blogspot.com/search?q=cell+phone+test

If that is true, I don't see how RS and AK could have participated in the murder. RS was on his computer until 9:46. It was roughly a 10-minute walk to the cottage and a 10-minute walk to the disposal site. (We'll call the latter a "5-minute" walk since the phone was only part way there.)

That's still 15 minutes spent walking out of a total of 27 minutes between RS' last computer usage and MK's phone receiving a call while en route to the disposal site. During that same 27 minutes presumably MK was killed.

In other words, RS had 12 minutes to decide to help and to carry out the torture and murder of MK with a girl (AK) he'd known for a week and a man (RG) he'd never met. This doesn't pass even a comic-book probability test. (ETA and of course we haven't even begun to talk about the time it took MK to die after being stabbed, time one expects would be subtracted from the 12 minutes.)

 

[miley]

No, I was relying on a source that claimed the phone was already at the disposal site for the 10:13 abortive picture transmission. That does not appear to be the case since the cell tower is the same as for the other calls at the cottage.

I don't see a 10:31 a.m. call from the UK the next morning. What is your source for that? (You can just tell me. I don't need a formal cite.)

I'm quoting the one Allusonz just posted from Malkmus, here: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #8


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