WARNING:GRAPHIC PHOTOS Meredith Kercher murdered-Amanda Knox appeals conviction #8

[Allusonz]

Ballistics is the study of projectiles ... so who better to discuss the projectile rock than a ballistics expert? That is entirely different than a mechanical engineer that studies vehicle accidents claiming to be an expert in crime scene analysis and blood spatter.

Is there anyone that would want the crime scene of a loved one analyzed by a traffic accident resconstructionist? I doubt it.

Really? Wonder why Massei did not feel he was qualified enough?

 

[Allusonz]

What makes you think that prosecutors are accountable to no one?

Then maybe you can tell me whom he does account to? He seems to be running amok...

 

[Nova]

Ron Hendry is a retired accident reconstructionist. His training is as a mechanical engineer. I'm not convinced that a mechanical engineer that specializes in accident reconstruction is the best guy to analyze a murder scene. In fact, he has no expertise whatsoever in crime scene analysis. Wouldn't it be better to rely on the analysis offered by the experts that testified during the trial?

As for the room, Candace Dempsey has posted on her opinion blog that Meredith's bedroom was no bigger than a postage stamp. If we are to believe that, of course no one could fit in the room. No one could have murdered Meredith in her bedroom according to Dempsey's opinion.

After a lengthy search, I located and posted the actual dimensions of the room, so nobody is relying on the "postage stamp" metaphor, I don't think.

IIRC, MK's room was roughly 9' by 11', which is the size of the smallest room in my lower-middle-class house, a walk-in closet.

Whether or not Hendry has the ideal credentials for this case, his arguments make sense and don't require us to overlook enormous lapses in logic. Did the struggle between AK and RG happen exactly as Hendry describes it in every detail? I don't know. But I believe him when he says the aspirated blood pattern doesn't show gaps where two additional people could have been standing. I believe him when he says that four people moving in that small a space would have left more bloody footprints.

 

[Nova]

I needed to take a break from the discussion ... it can be a bit frustrating discussing the validity of an opinion posted on a blog (Candace Dempsey). She can write whatever she wants. She is not blogging as a reporter, and is not held to any journalistic standard when she posts on her blog. Her opinions about the murder and the movie are no more significant than any opinions posted here, yet she seems to be held up as writing facts. Similarly, we have the accident reconstructionist who is held up as a forensic expert, yet he is a retired mechanical engineer with no forensic expertise in criminal investigations. The writings of Candace Dempsey would never be published in the newspaper as informative or factual, and expertise of Hendry would never be introduced in a criminal trial anywhere. Why are these two characters given so much credit?

I've never cited Dempsey and I am not in a position to defend her.

With Hendry, however, his conclusions are the same as any number of forensic experts. He is cited, however, because he took the time and trouble to lay out his conclusions in sufficient detail for the rest of us to follow them.

 

[Nova]

IRRC, Raffaele's computer registered that the movie ended at about 9:15 PM, but there was no activity in terms of human interaction until the following morning around 6 when someone tuned into some music. The prosecution believes that the lovebirds went out before the movie ended.

The time of death has moved a bit from sometime between 9 and 10, to as late as about 11:30.

Per this link:

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/timeline-2.html


the Perugia crime lab found activity on RS' computer at 9:46 pm. I'm sure you won't like that site, but it's not the only place that time has been reported. If you have a source to refute the 9:46 pm time, it's your turn to produce it.

We know there was an inexcusable delay in taking the temperature of the body, which allows both sides to play with the TOD. The prosecution wants it later, so that RS and AK have plenty of time to meet up with RG and plan their prank/murder/whatever. The defense prefers earlier times because computer records indicate AK and RS were otherwise occupied.

We know MK's cell phones had been discarded by shortly after midnight.

If the TOD is 11:30 (as the prosecution would prefer), then we have to believe MK spent 2 and a half hours at home without ever removing her jacket. Not impossible, but also not likely.

We also have to believe the aborted phone activity shortly after 10 pm was MK "playing with her phone." Again, not impossible, but, again, not likely. I am of an older generation to whom cell phones are new miracle gadgets, but even I don't sit and "play" with my phone. I seriously doubt someone of MK's age would play with her phone in a way that would cause it to make calls.

 

[Nova]

I think it is normal for people that are okay ("the okayers") with a verdict to move on after following a case. At least, I am not planning to stick around for the next 20 years discussing this case. The people who don't agree with the verdict will probably stick around longer. IMO. I am still following the appeals somewhat but not nearly as much as the first trial.

Besides that I don't see the point of repeating the same issues over and over, but will see if the appeals bring anything new. So far, I don't really have any opinion about disco buses

I don't have an opinion about disco buses either, but the point I wanted to make is that we all have lives apart from this case. At least I hope we do.

Just because somebody takes a break doesn't mean they have conceded the issue or can't answer an argument.

That being said, I can't help but notice how otto returns just as dgfred departs. Obviously, the "guilties" are tag-teaming and I can't help but wonder how that works. Do ya'll keep sign-up sheets or what? (In case it isn't obvious, this entire paragraph is a joke.)

 

[Nova]

Do you really think that a retired mechanical engineer that specialized in accident reconstruction is a better expert than a crime scene analyst?

I can't make a blanket comparison, but I can recognize a well-stated and well-supported argument, even when it comes from an engineer.

 

[Nova]

Nova, there has been much discussion about the size of Meredith's bedroom; whether it's the size of a bedroom, a bathroom, or a postage stamp. It was a decent sized bedroom, not unlike many bedrooms found in North America: about 10 feet wide, and 11 or 12 feet long (door being on the longer wall). There is a bed, probably 3x6, and then nothing between the bed and the outer wall. There is a wardrobe and chest along one wall. They cut into the room about 18 inches for a total span of about 4 feet. The desk on the opposite wall cuts in about 2 feet. The span of the desk and the door is about 6 feet. I built a model of the house some time ago, and saw your post about what it might look like. This reconstruction is built to scale.

Thanks. Somewhere above I link to a site with the precise dimensions in meters. (And it's from a pro-verdict site, so you'll like that. LOL.)

 

[Nova]

The knife is being reviewed for lab contamination. I don't think it's possible to dispute that it's Meredith's DNA, regardless of how it was tested. The markers are consistent, but the knife DNA has lower peaks. It's still her DNA.

The bra clasp, on the other hand, is being reviewed for process & handling. The question is whether it was contaminated in the field, whereas the knife is being tested for contamination in the lab. We still have to figure out how Raffaele's DNA got into the bedroom in the first place, then we can try to connect that to the bra clasp. If the only place we should find Raffaele's DNA is in the kitchen, we have to believe that someone else collected a spec of Raffaele's DNA from a cigarette butt in the kitchen and left it on the bra clasp in the bedroom. What are the odds of that?

Given what we've seen of the collection, I think we assume the bra clasp was contaminated unless the prosecution can prove otherwise. RS' DNA could have come from any number of places, as he had been at the cottage a number of times.

You and I have already discussed the knife at length. In my view, it doesn't pass the laugh test; there's simply no way AK chose to carry that size kitchen knife out for the evening.

 

[Nova]

This is a scaled reenactment with the camera placed in the opposite corner. I hope you appreciate that I have represented Amanda as a nice young woman. Same with Rudy and Raffale ... all nice young people convicted of murder.

That's all well and good and I have no quarrel with your casting.

But logic, as well as the blood stains left behind, tells us that MK and her assailant were moving quickly around the room. That doesn't leave room for additional people to hang out during the murder and exit without leaving traces of themselves behind.

 

[Nova]

I know several mechanical engineers that went on to become doctors. Just saying...

Engineers and scientists get similar training in scientific method and deduction.

 

[otto]

Then maybe you can tell me whom he does account to? He seems to be running amok...

Just so I understand, are you saying that the prosecutor is not accountable to anyone, or are you saying that you do not know who prosecutors are accountable to?

 

[otto]

After a lengthy search, I located and posted the actual dimensions of the room, so nobody is relying on the "postage stamp" metaphor, I don't think.

IIRC, MK's room was roughly 9' by 11', which is the size of the smallest room in my lower-middle-class house, a walk-in closet.

Whether or not Hendry has the ideal credentials for this case, his arguments make sense and don't require us to overlook enormous lapses in logic. Did the struggle between AK and RG happen exactly as Hendry describes it in every detail? I don't know. But I believe him when he says the aspirated blood pattern doesn't show gaps where two additional people could have been standing. I believe him when he says that four people moving in that small a space would have left more bloody footprints.

The accident reconstructionist opinion of this murder makes no sense to me whatsoever. He has no idea what would happen at a murder involving 4 people because he has absolutely no experience in the area. Similarly, he has no training in blood spatter analysis. He is a layperson with an opinion, no different than any of us.

 

[Nova]

The accident reconstructionist opinion of this murder makes no sense to me whatsoever. He has no idea what would happen at a murder involving 4 people because he has absolutely no experience in the area. Similarly, he has no training in blood spatter analysis. He is a layperson with an opinion, no different than any of us.

I think any of us could look at a blood spray pattern and count the gaps where bystanders blocked the spray of blood.

I think any of us can note the paucity of bloody footprints for a crime in which a person was supposedly assaulted by three people wielding two knives.

 

[otto]

IIRC, MK's room was roughly 9' by 11', which is the size of the smallest room in my lower-middle-class house, a walk-in closet.

2.91 x 3.36 square meters according to the original floorplan. 9.6 x 11 square feet.

 

[otto]

Per this link:

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/timeline-2.html


the Perugia crime lab found activity on RS' computer at 9:46 pm. I'm sure you won't like that site, but it's not the only place that time has been reported. If you have a source to refute the 9:46 pm time, it's your turn to produce it.

We know there was an inexcusable delay in taking the temperature of the body, which allows both sides to play with the TOD. The prosecution wants it later, so that RS and AK have plenty of time to meet up with RG and plan their prank/murder/whatever. The defense prefers earlier times because computer records indicate AK and RS were otherwise occupied.

We know MK's cell phones had been discarded by shortly after midnight.

If the TOD is 11:30 (as the prosecution would prefer), then we have to believe MK spent 2 and a half hours at home without ever removing her jacket. Not impossible, but also not likely.

We also have to believe the aborted phone activity shortly after 10 pm was MK "playing with her phone." Again, not impossible, but, again, not likely. I am of an older generation to whom cell phones are new miracle gadgets, but even I don't sit and "play" with my phone. I seriously doubt someone of MK's age would play with her phone in a way that would cause it to make calls.

Do you have a reference other than the discussion board you linked?

According to the motivation report, the court determined that: "We already mentioned that, at around 21:15 pm, all interaction with Raffaele Sollecito’s computer stops"

pg 77

"Raffaele Sollecito's computer appears to have been activated in order to listen to music at 5:32 am on November 2 for a period of about half an hour"

pg 82

Meredith was not found wearing a jacket, so why would you think that she didn't take it off?

 

[otto]

I think any of us could look at a blood spray pattern and count the gaps where bystanders blocked the spray of blood.

I think any of us can note the paucity of bloody footprints for a crime in which a person was supposedly assaulted by three people wielding two knives.

Seriously? Prosecutors attend training session with FBI experts to understand blood spatter analysis, and that doesn't qualify them to perform the analysis ... it only makes it easier for them to communicate with experts. There is no way that the average joe can interpret blood drops.

 

[otto]

This is the court's conclusion regarding the use of Raffaele's computer: "The dead system confirmed that the last access (‚the system closed the program‛, is how Vice-Captain Trotta expressed it, on page 31, meaning that the ‚closure‛ could be correlated as much to the human activity needed to stop the playing of the film, as to the natural conclusion with the scrolling of the end credits, a place at which the end of the ‚film‛ itself would have undertaken a last interaction with the system, irrespective of the physical presence of a user), took place at 21:10:32 on the 1 November."

pg 304 Motivation Report

That is, the movie stopped playing at about 9:10 PM, and there was no human interaction ... meaning, the movie was playing, it stopped, but there is no evidence that anyone was still watching the film. The next human interaction with the computer was the followin morning at 5:30.

 

[otto]

Given what we've seen of the collection, I think we assume the bra clasp was contaminated unless the prosecution can prove otherwise. RS' DNA could have come from any number of places, as he had been at the cottage a number of times.

You and I have already discussed the knife at length. In my view, it doesn't pass the laugh test; there's simply no way AK chose to carry that size kitchen knife out for the evening.

Raffaele's DNA was found in two places in the cottage: on a cigarette butt in the kitchen, and on the bra. For contamination to occur, the DNA from the butt, that was collected during the initial search, had to jump off the butt and travel down the hallway to the last bedroom, and then jump onto the bra. That's incredulous. The bra was not contaminated in the lab because the analysis was done at a separate time, and after the other items were analyzed.

If it is concluded that there was no contamination of the knife in the lab, then the only alternative is that Knox brought the knife from Raffaele's apt to her cottage at some time.

 

[otto]

I've never cited Dempsey and I am not in a position to defend her.

With Hendry, however, his conclusions are the same as any number of forensic experts. He is cited, however, because he took the time and trouble to lay out his conclusions in sufficient detail for the rest of us to follow them.

Dempsey is the blogger that first stated that Meredith's bedroom was too small to accommodate the murder. She made this remark in her list of criticisms of the movie. She seems to like the discussion she inspired with her shrinking bedroom comment, as one of her recent opinion blogs now describes the bedroom as the size of a postage stamp.