Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

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southcitymom said:
Yours is a fair assessment, to be sure. I, like you, have a basic understanding of Mormonism and of how Jeffers FLDS community came to be what it was. And like you - I find the dictates followers were required to abide by to be restricting and obsessive (and some of them, harmful).

But (and this is why I'm such a pain to those who know me!) - can't so many of the things you wrote also apply to mainstream religion? Back in the day, my grandmother and my aunt experienced excommunication from their Episcopal church for getting a divorce. I have Catholic friends whose families have shunned them completely for divorce, homosexuality, etc... because that it what they feel like the church wants them to do and they feel like the church is right.

Leaders of churches try to control the followers - and so has it ever been and still is today. Leaders of churches consider it their Heaven-sanctioned duty to control their followers and some of those methods of control are downright barbaric (if not physically, then spiritually).

My experience is that we only want to call something a Cult when we think the beliefs are just too "outside the norm" of our society. And I hate that - I really do. All the other crazy mainstream church activity that we see - we'll call that Religion, because at least they look like us to a certain degree.

I have never found a satisfactory explanation for how cults differ from churches. It seems to hinge on societal acceptance and I am not down with that.
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http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html This link is an informative look at what cults are.
 
Pepper said:
You do make some valid points. But I think the main difference between culturally accepted religions and cults is the ability to exercise free will and leave if they want. Everything I hear about the FLDS is that a fenced compound does not allow the freedom to leave or to have visitors from the outside.

Within the Catholic church for example, even monastaries, seminaries and convents allow visits from family, and those that CHOOSE the religious vocation are free to leave it. So from my perspective the difference between a religion and a cult is the degree of pressure one receives to stay within the confines of that faith. I do confess that I sometimes wonder if Jesus' followers would have been considered a cult in that time. I do believe that if someone today was to declare himself the reincarnated Christ, he would surely be branded a cult leader.

I am not currently a church-goer, though I've been raised in the Christian faith. It saddens me that so many lives have been lost over the centuries due to religious differences. I believe a person can be very spiritual without belonging to a specific church or even religion. In my jaded old age I tend to see religion as a business, and the necessity to preach the gospel is a business move to increase the collection plate coffers.
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Great post - I have oftened wondered the same thing about Jesus and the disciples - I am practically convinced that they would have been branded a cult because Jesus was considered way way out there to the religious elders of the time.

The part I highlighted - here's a scenario. In 12-step fellowships, when someone wants to leave the fold and go back to drinking or shooting dope, a great deal of pressure is often placed on that individual to stay and continue a life based in sobriety and on the 12-steps. Are NA and AA cults?
 
Medusa said:
http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html This link is an informative look at what cults are.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link - it's very similar to what we studied in college. But still - it all comes down to degree and perception. That's what trips me up.

For me - I don't care what you're doing - if it helps you to live what you perceive to be a happier, more peaceful life - go for it.

Many people feel that Scientology is a cult. I know personally only one person involved in Scietology and it really works for them. So - can cults be good?
 
southcitymom said:
Yours is a fair assessment, to be sure. I, like you, have a basic understanding of Mormonism and of how Jeffers FLDS community came to be what it was. And like you - I find the dictates followers were required to abide by to be restricting and obsessive (and some of them, harmful).

But (and this is why I'm such a pain to those who know me!) - can't so many of the things you wrote also apply to mainstream religion? Back in the day, my grandmother and my aunt experienced excommunication from their Episcopal church for getting a divorce. I have Catholic friends whose families have shunned them completely for divorce, homosexuality, etc... because that it what they feel like the church wants them to do and they feel like the church is right.

Leaders of churches try to control the followers - and so has it ever been and still is today. Leaders of churches consider it their Heaven-sanctioned duty to control their followers and some of those methods of control are downright barbaric (if not physically, then spiritually).

My experience is that we only want to call something a Cult when we think the beliefs are just too "outside the norm" of our society. And I hate that - I really do. All the other crazy mainstream church activity that we see - we'll call that Religion, because at least they look like us to a certain degree.

I have never found a satisfactory explanation for how cults differ from churches. It seems to hinge on societal acceptance and I am not down with that.
Click to expand...

I believe it's a cult when you are so afraid of defying your "leader" that you will break the law instead. The members of FLDS would openly defy/break LAWS before they would disobey their leader Warren Jeffs. It's a cult when you fear more for your life, security and well being OUTSIDE it than in it and are forcibly isolated from children, parents, extended family, friends and anyone who does not belong to the cult. It's a cult when basic human rights and freedom are denied and you cannot LEAVE . It's a cult when the leaders make ALL decisions FOR you and you allow them to take your children away because your own children do not belong to you, but to THEM. It's a cult when you have NO CHOICES, including the choice to LIVE or DIE (Jonestown, FLDS Blood Attonement). In a cult it may be that you cannot even marry someone you love or dress or wear you hair the way you prefer - but must ONLY obey and follow the dictates of another person who is not chosen by you, but placed in charge of you and EVERY tiny aspect of your life - regardless of you personal feelings. A cult denies ALL PERSONAL CHOICES AND FREEDOM - for you and your children and you are prevented - by force, abuse, threats, kidnapping of your loved ones or coercion or blackmail, from leaving.

A church is something you join (and can leave) BY CHOICE. You have the freedom to follow the dictates or NOT. YEs, societal and familial pressures may be placed upon you - but you still are FREE to make your own decision - and suffer the consequences by choice. The Catholic church indeed places pressure on it's members - they do not condone abortion, birth control, the death penalty or divorce - but they do not FORBID you from choosing to do ANY of those things by FORCE - only by social and moral constraints. And you can indeed be excommunicated and still CALL yourself a Catholic and follow most of their teachings. They don't evict you from your home, take your spouse and children away and dump you in the outskirts of town with NOTHING. If your family and friends CHOOSE not to associate with you because you have left the faith THEY adhere to, again, that is by their personal choice. The CHURCH isn't sitting at their door with guns and preventing you from visiting them, or them from visiting you.

It all boils down to CHOICE. A Church does not require you to donate money, attend services or follow you into your home or bedroom or office and oversee what you do or say there. They don't have spies checking on you to make sure you don't laugh out loud or cry. They don't tell you who to marry, when to marry or FORCE you to have sex or have children. A Church sets guidelines for membership - whether you follow them and accept their tenets is UP TO YOU - and that choice has NO BEARING on the balance of your life. Cults - like Scientology (IMO) insist on controlling your FREE WILL and find ways to infiltrate every part of your life with OTHER MEMBERS to ensure you follow the rules. And there are threats (blackmail) and real consequences to prevent you from leaving. A real Church doesn't care if you are rich or poor, famous or homeless, they care about providing fellowship, support and spiritual support and guidance and inspiration . A real church cares about your soul, not your pocketbook, it cares about your heart, not your obedience to a person. And it certainly doesn't hold any POWER over you that you do not give it VOLUNTARILY.

Faith and a church are personal choices - and despite any insinuations by others - we, here in America, are free to join or not, believe or not, worship or not. We cannot control the actions and behavior of others, only our own reactions to such behavior. Social or familial pressure and even dysfunction are NOT related to a church, but to those people and their own choices. Even the Amish can leave their faith AT WILL and insist on giving their children the free exposure to the "real world" at age 18 BEFORE they are permitted to join the church.... and that is a VERY restrictive faith - even MORE so than FLDS - in dress, schooling, family and even living - no electricity, AC, phones, computers or cars! Their members live their faith BY CHOICE, not by FORCE or ISOLATION OR BRAINWASHING - or by being taught that all outsiders are EVIL INFIDELS. And they certainly don't HIDE themselves away in compounds behind walls/fences with armed guards and force girls to marry at age 14 to a man 40 years her senior who she has NEVER MET. And they don't remove and trade children like party hats either.

And it's NOT a CULT - but the FLDS IS, IMO.

My OPINION
 
I really hope we get a forum soon! Besides the discussions on the legal issues/ ramifications & illigal practices of the FDLS, it has been very interesting to read what everyone thinks regarding freedom of religion/cults, etc... I am actually astounded that this dialogue has remained very civil and engaging and not degenerated into a fight between 'bible thumpers' and 'heathens'! I hope when we get a forum we can have a thread to continue this discussion- Kudos to all!
 
The blog writer seemed confused by the statement by Judge Walther and read it a number of different ways. To me it seems clear that there are 18 "girls" under the age of 18 years old, with infants.

http://patterico.com/2008/04/23/flds-judge-wont-separate-mothers-infants/

The state’s Child Protective Services said its plan was to separate mothers from their children when they began placing the rest of the children who are still inside the San Angelo Coliseum. But Judge Barbara Walther said she would prefer that the 18 girls with infants would not be separated.”
 
FlowerChild said:
And it's NOT a CULT - but the FLDS IS, IMO.

My OPINION
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ITA FlowerChild. You explained so well the differences between a church and a cult. FLDS, in my opinion, is nothing more than a destructive cult.
 
Ca-Sun said:
ITA FlowerChild. You explained so well the differences between a church and a cult. FLDS, in my opinion, is nothing more than a destructive cult.
Click to expand...

Another key difference between organized religion and this particular group is that the church actively condones breaking the laws. It's not just a random member, but a culture to defraud the government and abuse members.
 
Perhaps this has already been addressed, but if the members of Jeffs group were held by force - how and who made the call to authorities that resulted in this raid?
 
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/192424.php

Confirmed: Rozita Swinton, the woman implicated as the hoaxter who placed a fraudulent phone call which led to the roundup of hundreds of children from the Texas polygamy cult ranch, is a Barack Obama delegate to the Colorado state Democratic convention.
 
golfmom said:
Another key difference between organized religion and this particular group is that the church actively condones breaking the laws. It's not just a random member, but a culture to defraud the government and abuse members.
Click to expand...

Good point. But did Christ not counsel his followers to ignore the laws of the day? Jesus was a rabble-rouser and culturally reckless in both his associations and instructions? This is what made him so revolutionary.

Could the story of Christ (which many laud today in modern times) lend itself to people who wanted to believe in what Jeffs was selling?
 
golfmom said:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/192424.php

Confirmed: Rozita Swinton, the woman implicated as the hoaxter who placed a fraudulent phone call which led to the roundup of hundreds of children from the Texas polygamy cult ranch, is a Barack Obama delegate to the Colorado state Democratic convention.
Click to expand...

Thanks, golf - I missed that completely! So the raid itself was based on a lie. Fascinating. Ms. Swinton must be bursting with pride. The end justifies the means, no?
 
Pepper said:
I think I heard somewhere that Texas does not require birth certificates, or something like that. Anyway a loophole in Texas law, and probably one of the reasons they settled there.
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Thanks Pepper.
 
http://www.cityofedinburg.com/cs-vitalstatistics.html
Texas Law / TX Public Information Act
Texas law requires that a birth certificate be filed within five days of the birth and that a death certificate or fetal death certificate filed within ten days. Generally, it takes at least one week after a birth before the certificate is filed. Most death certificates are available within three to four weeks after the death.
 
southcitymom said:
Good point. But did Christ not counsel his followers to ignore the laws of the day? Jesus was a rabble-rouser and culturally reckless in both his associations and instructions? This is what made him so revolutionary.

Could the story of Christ (which many laud today in modern times) lend itself to people who wanted to believe in what Jeffs was selling?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about Christ advocating not following the laws of the day. He did say to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. If you're referring to work on the Sabbath (saving your donkey if he fell in a ditch, etc. ), that was a Jewish tradition not a law from the government they were living under at the time.
 
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