Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[Leila]

Nancy Grace is on now. They're saying that babies under one will be able to stay with their moms so they can breast feed, but others are being separated. Did anyone else hear this? Did they say the mothers will be going to foster homes with the babies?? This is BS if true unless the moms are truly under age 18. People can hardly get any help and these people are getting special privileges and costing the state even more money. Most of these idiots will probably end up being turned loose and meanwhile I have desperately tried to get help with one of my grandkids with no luck at all.

I'm pretty sure they said the mothers 18 and younger would be going to foster homes with their babies.

 

[Yeah me]

I have confidence that even if this was prompted by a hoax call, that the authorities could only act if they found evidence during their initial search. Even the FBI was able to secure a search warrant. I think we're only hearing about the tip of the iceberg as far as the evidence of abuse they collected.

It hadn't occurred to me that the women who spoke to the media might be punished. They seemed to be very evasive and didn't give direct answers ... like the kind of answers that were prepared and rehearsed.

I certainly hope you are right about the evidence.

As far as the women's answers go, it seemed to me that they were treading a thin line with what their spouses would approve of but at the same time trying to say whatever they could to possibly get their children back. That's just my interpretation.

 

[galvino]

This post is a tidget OT, but I just need to share it with 'the universe' cause I find it interesting...

I stated in a much earlier post that I 'adopted' 4 young men who were Sudanese refugees, who grew up in polygamous families in Southern Sudan. They are called "The Lost Boys of Sudan". I can't help but do the ol' compare & contrast exercise between their lives & the lives of the Lost Boys from this polygamist sect- including assimilation into a culture that is SOOOO foreign, being ripped from their families, and quite frankly living through a hell we can't even imagine.

But even tho they grew up in this culture (1000's of yrs old), and lived through outside influences that were horrific (ie murder, torture slavery), they were not 'mind controlled' and taught the types of things the FLDS teaches. It was a way of life, and did not use isolation to control them.

The transition to life in a 'free' society was so difficult culturally, and there were times that I wondered if they were better off knowing that another world exhisted, but their resiliance is amazing (and they were in their 20's).

It is still difficult for some of them, but I am constantly surprised by the triumph of the human spirit, and how the caring and love of individuals CAN make a difference. The gov't helped, but as we have discussed here, there are major shortfalls. Bridging the gap with concerned volunteers is what lifted these young men up, & I feel that will be the case here with the FLDS.

 

[Leila]

I have confidence that even if this was prompted by a hoax call, that the authorities could only act if they found evidence during their initial search. Even the FBI was able to secure a search warrant. I think we're only hearing about the tip of the iceberg as far as the evidence of abuse they collected.

It hadn't occurred to me that the women who spoke to the media might be punished. They seemed to be very evasive and didn't give direct answers ... like the kind of answers that were prepared and rehearsed.

The initial search warrant going into the YFZ ranch was based on the call by 16-year-old "Sarah." But once inside and searching for Sarah, LE and CPS found too many pregnant underage girls and went back to court for a second search warrant. So the removal of the children was all done under the terms of the second search warrant.

If you recall, they went in on April 3rd, but didn't start removing anyone until the 4th - because they went back for a second warrant.

 

[Glow]

Exactly! We could go on and on about the similarities, but I am really not trying to tick anyone off or to say Jeffs is the Jesus of our era. That is not what I believe.

But still - some part of me understands wanting to believe that. Is that a choice? Were the disciples brainwashed? I often feel like I was brainwashed by NA, but I don't sweat it because I needed a good brainwashing!

I agree that Jeffs is NO modern day Jesus. I think he is just one more man who had religious delusions so great that it became hard to tell where that left off and his mental illness began. It's there though. In all of his pictures he doesnt look like he is emotionally or mentally well. I'm glad he is in jail. Maybe after his trial they will find a mental institution would be better, who knows?

 

[LionRun]

This post is a tidget OT, but I just need to share it with 'the universe' cause I find it interesting...

I stated in a much earlier post that I 'adopted' 4 young men who were Sudanese refugees, who grew up in polygamous families in Southern Sudan. They are called "The Lost Boys of Sudan". I can't help but do the ol' compare & contrast exercise between their lives & the lives of the Lost Boys from this polygamist sect- including assimilation into a culture that is SOOOO foreign, being ripped from their families, and quite frankly living through a hell we can't even imagine.

But even tho they grew up in this culture (1000's of yrs old), and lived through outside influences that were horrific (ie murder, torture slavery), they were not 'mind controlled' and taught the types of things the FLDS teaches. It was a way of life, and did not use isolation to control them.

The transition to life in a 'free' society was so difficult culturally, and there were times that I wondered if they were better off knowing that another world exhisted, but their resiliance is amazing (and they were in their 20's).

It is still difficult for some of them, but I am constantly surprised by the triumph of the human spirit, and how the caring and love of individuals CAN make a difference. The gov't helped, but as we have discussed here, there are major shortfalls. Bridging the gap with concerned volunteers is what lifted these young men up, & I feel that will be the case here with the FLDS.

Galvino, thank you for what you have done for these young men:blowkiss:. I hope and pray that good folks like you will be there to help the children of the FLDS compound. There are so many children, and it may take time. But, I hope and pray for this.

Lion

 

[southcitymom]

This post is a tidget OT, but I just need to share it with 'the universe' cause I find it interesting...

I stated in a much earlier post that I 'adopted' 4 young men who were Sudanese refugees, who grew up in polygamous families in Southern Sudan. They are called "The Lost Boys of Sudan". I can't help but do the ol' compare & contrast exercise between their lives & the lives of the Lost Boys from this polygamist sect- including assimilation into a culture that is SOOOO foreign, being ripped from their families, and quite frankly living through a hell we can't even imagine.

But even tho they grew up in this culture (1000's of yrs old), and lived through outside influences that were horrific (ie murder, torture slavery), they were not 'mind controlled' and taught the types of things the FLDS teaches. It was a way of life, and did not use isolation to control them.

The transition to life in a 'free' society was so difficult culturally, and there were times that I wondered if they were better off knowing that another world exhisted, but their resiliance is amazing (and they were in their 20's).

It is still difficult for some of them, but I am constantly surprised by the triumph of the human spirit, and how the caring and love of individuals CAN make a difference. The gov't helped, but as we have discussed here, there are major shortfalls. Bridging the gap with concerned volunteers is what lifted these young men up, & I feel that will be the case here with the FLDS.

Thanks for sharing that, galvino. I don't think it's offtopic - there are so many topics to be discussed in connection with Jeffs and the FLDS and the raid and the children!

It's wonderful that you were able to help some of the Lost Boys. I saw a show on it - so very sad.

 

[southcitymom]

I agree that Jeffs is NO modern day Jesus. I think he is just one more man who had religious delusions so great that it became hard to tell where that left off and his mental illness began. It's there though. In all of his pictures he doesnt look like he is emotionally or mentally well. I'm glad he is in jail. Maybe after his trial they will find a mental institution would be better, who knows?

I asked this question earlier in the thread: which came first - the fanaticism or the mental illness?

Religious delusions have always interested me. They lead to some of the worst sorts of crime against our fellows. I do not think Jeffs would be out of place in a mental institution. I think studying him would benefit us.

 

[SuziQ]

I found this in the comments under the article golfmom posted, forgive me if it's been mentioned:

--------------------------------------------
Are you kidding me? This all ties in together with Laci's case somehow? I remember the call about a pregger woman being pulled into the van and it coming up bogus. I betcha Rozita was a member here or other similar forum. She just wanted to see her actions in print and connected with high profile cases. :crazy: NUT!

Ya just never know......

And didn't Scott Petersons attorney use that to try to show the jury someone else besides Scott killed Lacy? It wouldn't have been good if innocent people ended up behind bars and Scott went free. It all kinda worked out this time with the FLDS calls, but Rozita needs to be behind bars or in a mental hospital. Her antics could one day cause an innocent person to go to prison.

 

[mysteriew]

I asked this question earlier in the thread: which came first - the fanaticism or the mental illness?

Religious delusions have always interested me. They lead to some of the worst sorts of crime against our fellows. I do not think Jeffs would be out of place in a mental institution. I think studying him would benefit us.

I think the fanaticism. Jeffs was born and raised in the FLDS community. So it wasn't until he took over that he had any power. Imagine being totally powerless and controlled, then upon the death of his father being totally in charge- even to the point of having total control over other's lives.

I would guess that it could be argued that the bizarre aspects of the religion might have contributed to his attitudes. I am not sure he would qualify as mentally ill though. He indicated that he knew that mainstream society would think that what they were doing was wrong when he commanded his followers to lie when asked questions about the community, and to obtain financial benefits through possible fraudent means. The ability to determine right and wrong is one of the criminal mental health tests. Rather than mentally ill, I think of him as being sadistic and maybe a psychopath.

 

[galvino]

Thanx guys for the head nod!

It is still such a muddled mess-southcitymom- they are still in Atl and my 'pet' works at ADAC.(by the way, do you ever go to South City Kitchen or Vickory's? my faves!)

I just find the differences between growing up in a polygamist society (which I have no problem with) and being threatened with eternal damnation for going against the teachings of the FLDS a frightening thang.

Sometimes we (as Americans) forget the abhorant curveballs life can really throw at us if we live somewhere else (watching our parents raped and slaughtered, being forced to drink our own urine to stay alive, forced into slavery & war at age 9) and tend to be outraged that these FLDS kids don't know what crayons are or know how to 'play'!

There are worse and more difficult issues for these kids to deal with than their lack of education and marriage to older men. Please understand that I am not condoning the above, far from it, but I know that the complexities of navigating a foreign landscape are many and make anyone involved challenge the essence of who they are in this world. It boggles my mind to think of how I would go about that. I can not imagine it.

If anyone ever wants to read about my 'sons' (and I must say that even tho I am vested in this story, it is one of the BEST books I've ever read), please go to amazon.com and the title of the book is "WHAT IS THE WHAT" by Dave Eggars (a heartbreaking work of staggering genious) and Valentino Achek Deng.

 

[mysteriew]

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/192424.php

Confirmed: Rozita Swinton, the woman implicated as the hoaxter who placed a fraudulent phone call which led to the roundup of hundreds of children from the Texas polygamy cult ranch, is a Barack Obama delegate to the Colorado state Democratic convention.

I know someone who would call her a "rescuer" believing that she and she alone has to "save" victims (maybe real, maybe imagined). Personally, I think she is an attention getter. She wants attention so badly, she will accept negative attention.

BTW, wasn't it posted this AM that the Supreme Court has upheld the Texas actions in this case, at least as far as the fact that they entered legally and that upon finding other evidence of abuse they had the right to take temporary custody?

 

[FlowerChild]

If we are to believe the Bible, Jesus was born to a YOUNG mother - I don't know if age 14 is accurate - most girls reached puberty AT THAT TIME between ages 14-16 - but this was 2000 years ago - when the average lifespan was about 35-40. It was accepted that many marriages were arranged and that girls married soon after puberty - which was all arranged by astrologers, matchmakers and religious leaders (in both Jewish and Royal families proper lineage WAS critical). Often marriages between children in two "matching" families were done at ages 5-8 - but the actual "wedding" and giving of the bride waited for puberty. There were dowries and other monetary arrangements as well. It was often important that the two families be "joined" and it created widespread familial support. It is also important to note that Jesus was essentially a "Prince of David" by birthright thru the bloodlines of his parents (even though he is now known as "the Son of God") he was of Jewish "Royal" blood by virtue of his earthly Father AND Mother - which was important at that time and also made him more dangerous to the Pharisees and Egypt as he gained support and notoriety. HISTORICALLY speaking Jesus was a real threat as the LEADER of the Jews - not as the Son Of God - all miracles aside.

And even if some small correlations (invented, IMO) are found to link Warren Jeffs with Jesus, you must understand that the Mormons are not as heavily into "Jesus" - as they consider Joseph Smith their faith's "modern sort of "Jesus" in the form of a Prophet who God spoke to and who got visits from Angels and words directly from God himself on gold plates. They even have their own "book" - which they hold as highly as the Bible (maybe even higher). In the Mormon faith, being a descendant of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young and being in the leadership is far more compelling and places you higher in the church than worship of Jesus. They acknowledge Jesus , but see him a a figurehead - over their living Prophets and Apostles who hold the Holy Priesthood and receive revelation from Him to guide and direct the Church. Jesus Christ is the head of the Mormon Church, but on earth he is represented by His Apostles.

Warren Jeffs HAS the bloodlines and I am sure the FLDS believes him MORE powerful than Jesus because he is alive and in their belief, is a "seer and revelator", receiving "revelation" directly from God all the time. They believe in the LIVING REVELATIONS he is handing down TODAY MORE than in the historical Biblical Word. In the Mormon faith (both LDS and FLDS) - God is issuing constant "updates" - in the LDS Chuch thru THEIR "Seer and Revelator" - the current President, Prophet and his Apostles - spread thru the "Priesthood" - all adult male members are the "Priesthood". It's the same in the FLDS Church but THEIR direction/"revelations" come thru THEIR Prophet Warren Jeffs and HIS Apostles

Warren Jeffs believes himself (and all his followers believe) that HE, and ONLY he, is in direct communication with God and his word is the LAW. It isn't any different than the mainstream Mormon Church's beliefs - just a different (and possibly psychotically deluded) "Prophet" - and it is thru his LINEAGE - his father was the previous "Prophet" of the FLDS Church

None of this is simple - it's IMO a kind of "new version" of Jewish/Biblical History in that having proper lineage to lead and then inheriting the leadership with age. All the Apostles are "in line" and the Senior Apostle always inherits the position when the previous one dies. If you become an Apostle and live long enough, you can ascend to the Presidency of the Church. And it isn't anything like what most Christian Religions believe. Mormons have no Preachers, Ministers or individual church "leaders" as such - the leadership is rather "set" and goes on strict lines of "inheritance by seniority" - like a family owned business would. In the FLDS church, leadership is also FAMILIAL - Last names of Jeffs and Jessop (for instance) from the original splinter group - etc.

And most important, the FLDS members are primarily BORN into the faith and INDOCTRINATED from BIRTH. The members (those not in leadership positions) are NOT PERMITTED any reading materials, TV, Radio, Internet or uncensored contact with the "outside, infidel" world. They believe because they are never ALLOWED to explore anything different - and if they do, and are caught, they are immediately expelled, alone and with NO money, skills or resources (or their family). Its by brainwashing and fostering complete dependence and exercising suffocating control over every aspect that Warren Jeffs "leads" his flock. He traps the women at 14-16 with children, sister-wives to watch their every move, an older husband to discipline and "train them" and No resources, money or education and makes it almost impossible for them to escape without exacting a HUGE cost - the loss of their family and their income, their home, all their possessions and THEIR CHILDREN.

It's quite a well oiled and effective system ...it's sick, but it's horrifyingly effective. No laughter, no emotions, no playing, no fun, no loud voices, no "sense of self" and even your children are not your own....

My Opinion
...see further explanation of the Mainstream LDS Church below:

"To accomplish His work here on earth, God has established His Church through living prophets who had His priesthood authority to act in his name. Jesus Christ's Church, which is the Mormon Church, continues today with living Prophets and Apostles who hold the Holy Priesthood and receive revelation from Him to guide and direct the Church. Jesus Christ is the head of the Mormon Church, but on earth he is represented by His Apostles. The purpose of Jesus Christ’s true Church is to call people to Him. It is the duty of all those who belong to Christ’s Church to teach others about Him. Hence, Mormons have a lay ministry, which means that every member participates. There are no paid ministers or clergy in Mormon congregations. Congregations are run by bishops who are men who hold the Priesthood authority. They are not specially trained ministers, but men from the community who generally have full time jobs. All the other leaders and teachers in local Mormon congregations, call wards, are also local members who have families and jobs in the community.
Since the goal of the Mormon Church is to bring people closer to Jesus Christ, leaders of the Mormon Church have broken this ministry into three parts: Perfecting the Saints, Proclaiming the Gospel, and Redeeming the Dead. This is called the three-fold mission of the Church.
(per) President, Prophet, Seer, and Revelator to the Mormon Church"

http://www.historyofmormonism.com/Mormon_Church.html

 

[Yeah me]

And didn't Scott Petersons attorney use that to try to show the jury someone else besides Scott killed Lacy? It wouldn't have been good if innocent people ended up behind bars and Scott went free. It all kinda worked out this time with the FLDS calls, but Rozita needs to be behind bars or in a mental hospital. Her antics could one day cause an innocent person to go to prison.

I think a mental hospital would be more appropriate. She's been punished thru jail and probation in the past on similar charges. Obviously, it hasn't helped. Arrggg, why didn't they trace the call BEFORE they raided the compound?
I'm really torn with this situation. I'm glad that the kids and (hopefully) women are being rescued from these conditions, but the way it's been handled is shady at best.

 

[mysteriew]

Bringing this forward

According to the local news some of the kids are heading to Fort Worth:

http://www.wfaa.com/video/index.html?nvid=238490

The Catholic Charities has a special shelter that is designed for situations like this according to the news and the kids will be housed there.


I am sure everything possible is going to be done to help the kids as well as not infringe on their religious beliefs.

As for the inital seacrh. seizure on the YFZ Ranch the Supreme Court has just ruled it is just and legal for Police to act upon other crimes when investigating another issue.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080423/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_search;_ylt=AsS9jPvuBWSgfj0EcUsIi7es0NUE

So even if Sarah is never found to be a real person it will not matter. I do hope, wish and pray IF there is a real Sarah that she is found, helped, cared for and protected. So to those that said it was not legal that the kids were removed for abuse because the Authorities went in for another reason it now is a moot arguement, thanks to the Supreme Court.

JMHO

Hugs,

Spyder

 

[southcitymom]

I think the fanaticism. Jeffs was born and raised in the FLDS community. So it wasn't until he took over that he had any power. Imagine being totally powerless and controlled, then upon the death of his father being totally in charge- even to the point of having total control over other's lives.

I would guess that it could be argued that the bizarre aspects of the religion might have contributed to his attitudes. I am not sure he would qualify as mentally ill though. He indicated that he knew that mainstream society would think that what they were doing was wrong when he commanded his followers to lie when asked questions about the community, and to obtain financial benefits through possible fraudent means. The ability to determine right and wrong is one of the criminal mental health tests. Rather than mentally ill, I think of him as being sadistic and maybe a psychopath.

I wasn't really thinking of it from a legal standpoint. I consider psychopaths to be mentally ill and our prisons are full of them. Regardless of what happens legally with Jeffs, I think there's a strong chance that he is suffering from mental illness. Whether or not he knew right from wrong doesn't interest me as much, though I am sure it will be of interest to many folks - particularly his attorneys.

 

[galvino]

Yeah-

I am disgusted anyone would fake this. I am also thankful that the Supreme Court upheld the warrant because I feel that what they found b/c of it is justified.

 

[mysteriew]

Jesus was a rebel against the tired, ridiculous religious mores of the time in which he was born. He didn't act like an anointed Prince. He acted like a rebel with a cause.

He wrecked the money changers tables because he thought everyone and not just the wealthy should have access to the Temple and God. He told his followers that all the law and prophets and the minituae from the ancient Jewish code was meaningless - that all God cared about was two things - loving God with all your heart and treating your neighbor as you would yourself. He told people that all people could have a relationship with a loving God and that this relationship was free.

He hung out with drunks, *advertiser censored*, lepers - the fringes of society. He told married men to leave their wives and children and come with him and never look back or think twice about the earthly responsibilities they were leaving. And on and on.

Jesus came to tear down the tired restrictive old laws and give us sight of a new way to live. He didn't do this by being an upstanding citizen - though he was, without question, an outstanding man and, IMHO, the most important historical figure the world has ever known.

We accept Christ's lawlessness with the Monday morning quarterback vision of a couple of thousand of years. Maybe Jeffs followers truly believed in a modern era prophet who acted lawless and sounded righteous.

I guess one of the biggest tests for me is the free will aspect. I am thinking of the story of Judas. Jesus said that one of the apostles would betray him. He didn't ask his followers to kill, maim or imprison the one he felt would betray him. And on the cross, he asked for forgiveness for Judas. He gave Judas free will, knowing what would happen.

Yet we have a lot of anecdotal evidence of what happens to women who do decide they want out of the FLDS. Many former members have stepped forward with tales of having to sneak out. All have talked about the risk they felt. And many have said they still feel endangered. And it isn't just one former member who has said that. Also, there has been mention of "blood atonement" though that hasn't been proven yet, at least I haven't heard of any bodies being associated with it.

To be honest, if I was going to compare the FLDS religion to any other religion, I would most likely compare it to the extremist version of Islam. (Not to be confused with the majority of the Islamic faith)

Yes, I do feel the FLDS is a cult.

 

[Yeah me]

Good info FC! TY!:clap:

SCM, my grandmother is one that I'm still shocked hasn't wound up in a mental institution because of her DEEP religious beliefs. It would take pages to give all the examples of just how messed up her way of thinking is. Hers (I believe) was a situation of both contributing to the other. Circular in the way that her mental illness made her religious fanaticism more profound and vice versa.:crazy: She's just a nut! I don't associate with her any longer (long story) but I still love her and should probably just call and tell her that sometime. :bang::waitasec:

ETA: I was just making an anecdotal commentary about mental health and deep religious fanaticism going hand in hand, in case anyone's confused.

might be time to log off for the night.......

 

[southcitymom]

Good info FC! TY!:clap:

SCM, my grandmother is one that I'm still shocked hasn't wound up in a mental institution because of her DEEP religious beliefs. It would take pages to give all the examples of just how messed up her way of thinking is. Hers (I believe) was a situation of both contributing to the other. Circular in the way that her mental illness made her religious fanaticism more profound and vice versa.:crazy: She's just a nut! I don't associate with her any longer (long story) but I still love her and should probably just call and tell her that sometime. :bang::waitasec:

My Mom has been in and out with some religious fanaticism. Fortunately, she is pretty well all the way out now - nothing she ever found in extreme Christian fundamentalism ever helped her (most of it just made her feel like hell) and I think she just got worn out with trying.

You should call (or write!) your grandmother and tell her you love her - but only if that doesn't put you in harm's way!