Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[mysteriew]

I wasn't really thinking of it from a legal standpoint. I consider psychopaths to be mentally ill and our prisons are full of them. Regardless of what happens legally with Jeffs, I think there's a strong chance that he is suffering from mental illness. Whether or not he knew right from wrong doesn't interest me as much, though I am sure it will be of interest to many folks - particularly his attorneys.

LOL, one of differences currently recognized about mental illness is that a psychopath knows it is wrong, but they do it anyway. A truly mentally ill person, believes it is what they are supposed to do.

Think about Couey and Peterson. Both tried to hide their crimes, which indicates they knew what they did was wrong. But they did it anyway. Psychopaths? Probably. But not currently recognized as being mentally ill.

 

[Yeah me]

My Mom has been in and out with some religious fanaticism. Fortunately, she is pretty well all the way out now - nothing she ever found in extreme Christian fundamentalism ever helped her (most of it just made her feel like hell) and I think she just got worn out with trying.

You should call (or write!) your grandmother and tell her you love her - but only if that doesn't put you in harm's way!

Physically or mentally? lol

I hope your mom can find what she's looking for. People search long and hard only to find that what they needed all along had to come from within themselves.

 

[southcitymom]

I guess one of the biggest tests for me is the free will aspect. I am thinking of the story of Judas. Jesus said that one of the apostles would betray him. He didn't ask his followers to kill, maim or imprison the one he felt would betray him. And on the cross, he asked for forgiveness for Judas. He gave Judas free will, knowing what would happen.

Yet we have a lot of anecdotal evidence of what happens to women who do decide they want out of the FLDS. Many former members have stepped forward with tales of having to sneak out. All have talked about the risk they felt. And many have said they still feel endangered. And it isn't just one former member who has said that. Also, there has been mention of "blood atonement" though that hasn't been proven yet, at least I haven't heard of any bodies being associated with it.

To be honest, if I was going to compare the FLDS religion to any other religion, I would most likely compare it to the extremist version of Islam. (Not to be confused with the majority of the Islamic faith)

Yes, I do feel the FLDS is a cult.

Yes - I do see what you mean about Jesus and Judas and free will. But an argument could also be made that Jesus knew Judas would betray him (after all - it was foretold and He believed it and told Judas it would happen) - no need to control anything if your destiny is already written out like that for you.

I definitely agree with you and others about "free will" being a key component to the church/cult dichotomy. Where I can't settle my mind around things is this: what feels like free will to me might look like mind control to someone else.

For example - if my husband was on the beach catching fish to feed our family while I was home with the kids and some strange charasmatic man came up to my husband and said "Leave everything behind and follow me" and my husband listened to him and left our family without so much as a goodbye and disappeared into the country with this man and a small group of others - I would say "WTF - my husband has been brainwashed by some religious whacko - his free will is gone - quick - get the deprogrammers on the phone!"

To me it looks like my husband has been kidnapped by a band of weirdos. To my husband, it might feel like he is living in the presence of God and nothing is more compelling than that.

Who's to say whether I am right or my husband is?

 

[Truly]

The initial search warrant going into the YFZ ranch was based on the call by 16-year-old "Sarah." But once inside and searching for Sarah, LE and CPS found too many pregnant underage girls and went back to court for a second search warrant. So the removal of the children was all done under the terms of the second search warrant.

If you recall, they went in on April 3rd, but didn't start removing anyone until the 4th - because they went back for a second warrant.

That's right. And the second search warrant discovered eighteen pregnant children, not just one. This case has nothing to do with the political or religious beliefs of the many nefarious players. The criminal charges in this case will focus on the individuals who are responsible for imprisoning hundreds of children in an effort to forcibly impregnate them.

 

[SewingDeb]

SCM,

I've never thought of the disciples as married men. I'm not even sure if the bible says that but maybe someone else knows.

Truly,

That cinches it for me. 18 underage pregnant girls. Ann Voss did testify that there was at least one underage married girl in each of the 20 households on the ranch. I guess some had already given birth when she visited.

 

[SuziQ]

FlowerChild, While there are some similarities in the way that LDS and FLDS worship, their are more disimilarities. Which makes one a criminal organization and the other not. In fact the core belief of the FLDS is their incorrect belief that the Book of Mormon condones and dictates the practice of polygamy. Polygamy is only mentioned in the Book of Mormon to warn against it with great consequences. Polygamy was added to Doctrine and Covenants by Brigham Young after Joseph Smiths death. The Mormon Church has a missionary and health practices program. The FLDS leaders could care less about anyone outside their faith or the mental and physical health of it's members. The FLDS wants to claim they follow the book of Mormon. But due to their kooky prophets, which I think is what your were pointing out, they don't practice anything remotely related to the Book of Mormon. True, they both have a Lay ministry. So do other religions. There are alot of religions that have similar beliefs. But it does not make one the same as the other. Phelps and the Baptist Church is a great example of why two different faiths should not be compared.

 

[southcitymom]

LOL, one of differences currently recognized about mental illness is that a psychopath knows it is wrong, but they do it anyway. A truly mentally ill person, believes it is what they are supposed to do.

Think about Couey and Peterson. Both tried to hide their crimes, which indicates they knew what they did was wrong. But they did it anyway. Psychopaths? Probably. But not currently recognized as being mentally ill.

I thought psychopath/sociopath/anti-scial personality disorder were considered to rest on the mental illness spectrum. But I am surely no expert and take a relatively catholic (as opposed to scientific) view of mental illness.

I do know that sociopaths do bad things and are aware that they are doing bad things. I don't consider that to be mentally healthy!

 

[SuziQ]

Good info FC! TY!:clap:


ETA: I was just making an anecdotal commentary about mental health and deep religious fanaticism going hand in hand, in case anyone's confused.

might be time to log off for the night.......

I totally get what you're are saying. I wonder how Churches, Priests, Ministers, etc are taught to handle someone like that?

 

[mysteriew]

Yes - I do see what you mean about Jesus and Judas and free will. But an argument could also be made that Jesus knew Judas would betray him (after all - it was foretold and He believed it and told Judas it would happen) - no need to control anything if your destiny is already written out like that for you.

I definitely agree with you and others about "free will" being a key component to the church/cult dichotomy. Where I can't settle my mind around things is this: what feels like free will to me might look like mind control to someone else.

For example - if my husband was on the beach catching fish to feed our family while I was home with the kids and some strange charasmatic man came up to my husband and said "Leave everything behind and follow me" and my husband listened to him and left our family without so much as a goodbye and disappeared into the country with this man and a small group of others - I would say "WTF - my husband has been brainwashed by some religious whacko - his free will is gone - quick - get the deprogrammers on the phone!"

To me it looks like my husband has been kidnapped by a band of weirdos. To my husband, it might feel like he is living in the presence of God and nothing is more compelling than that.

Who's to say whether I am right or my husband is?

I understand your point. It is like a domestic violence victim who repeatedly goes back to the husband or boyfriend. I think that is what changed my mind in this case. At first I saw the mothers as victims. But they are adults, they were out, and returned to the compound. They are adults and have that choice- both the right and the responsibilty for their actions.

However, the minor children are not adults, they don't have free choice and are not mature enough to choose anyway. They are seeing laws being broken around them, being taught it is not only right to break the law, they are being taught it is desirable to break the law. I find it hard to hold a child responsible for actions that their parents dictate.

When they turn 18, if they choose to return to the FLDS I will accept that and would say they also have the right and the responsibility for their actions. But they are not legally adults yet.

 

[Pepper]

Yes - I do see what you mean about Jesus and Judas and free will. But an argument could also be made that Jesus knew Judas would betray him (after all - it was foretold and He believed it and told Judas it would happen) - no need to control anything if your destiny is already written out like that for you.

I definitely agree with you and others about "free will" being a key component to the church/cult dichotomy. Where I can't settle my mind around things is this: what feels like free will to me might look like mind control to someone else.

For example - if my husband was on the beach catching fish to feed our family while I was home with the kids and some strange charasmatic man came up to my husband and said "Leave everything behind and follow me" and my husband listened to him and left our family without so much as a goodbye and disappeared into the country with this man and a small group of others - I would say "WTF - my husband has been brainwashed by some religious whacko - his free will is gone - quick - get the deprogrammers on the phone!"

To me it looks like my husband has been kidnapped by a band of weirdos. To my husband, it might feel like he is living in the presence of God and nothing is more compelling than that.

Who's to say whether I am right or my husband is?

Excellent thought-provoking scenerio!!

 

[mysteriew]

I thought psychopath/sociopath/anti-scial personality disorder were considered to rest on the mental illness spectrum. But I am surely no expert and take a relatively catholic (as opposed to scientific) view of mental illness.

I do know that sociopaths do bad things and are aware that they are doing bad things. I don't consider that to be mentally healthy!

As far as what I have read, sociopaths are like considered to be in no man's land. Not mentally ill (I think it is called a personality disorder, but I am not sure) but not considered healthy either.

 

[southcitymom]

SCM,

I've never thought of the disciples as married men. I'm not even sure if the bible says that but maybe someone else knows.

Truly,

That cinches it for me. 18 underage pregnant girls. Ann Voss did testify that there was at least one underage married girl in each of the 20 households on the ranch. I guess some had already given birth when she visited.

My understanding is yes. The one we know for sure was Peter as his MIL was healed by Jesus according to the Gospels. In 1st century Jewish culture it was normal to be married and to have children and many Biblical scholars believe that the women who eventually joined Jesus and the disciples were wives, mothers, sisters of these men who cared for them as they travelled and preached.

IIRC, Jesus approached at least one man to follow him and the man basically said - no - I can't just leave without telling me wife and family and Jesus said - there's no time for that - you need to leave earthly things behind and follow heavely things. I will try to find that reference tomorrow but now I am going to bed!

 

[southcitymom]

As far as what I have read, sociopaths are like considered to be in no man's land. Not mentally ill (I think it is called a personality disorder, but I am not sure) but not considered healthy either.

yes - personality disorder is right - I thought that was a subcategory of mental disorder/illness - but again - I have no training in the matter!

 

[Truly]

FlowerChild, While there are some similarities in the way that LDS and FLDS worship, their are more disimilarities. Which makes one a criminal organization and the other not. In fact the core belief of the FLDS is their incorrect belief that the Book of Mormon condones and dictates the practice of polygamy. Polygamy is only mentioned in the Book of Mormon to warn against it with great consequences. Polygamy was added to Doctrine and Covenants by Brigham Young after Joseph Smiths death. The Mormon Church has a missionary and health practices program. The FLDS leaders could care less about anyone outside their faith or the mental and physical health of it's members. The FLDS wants to claim they follow the book of Mormon. But due to their kooky prophets, they don't practice anything remotely related to the Book of Mormon. True, they both have a Lay ministry. So do other religions. There are alot of religions that have similar beliefs. But it does not make one the same as the other. Phelps and the Baptist Church is a great example of why two different faiths should not be compared.

SuziQ, I have been following your dilligent searching into this aspect, and thank you, as I knew very little about either the LDS or FLDS before this thread. May I ask if the LDS has now officially deleted the Doctrine and Covenants concerning polygamy? Have they gone back to the original Book? Thanks!

 

[Yeah me]

I totally get what you're are saying. I wonder how Churches, Priests, Ministers, etc are taught to handle someone like that?

In my experience, in what I've witnessed, they had no clue what to do with her. Someone would usually say something to her, she'd get offended and leave to find a new church because they didn't "teach the true word".

 

[Pepper]

My understanding is yes. The one we know for sure was Peter as his MIL was healed by Jesus according to the Gospels. In 1st century Jewish culture it was normal to be married and to have children and many Biblical scholars believe that the women who eventually joined Jesus and the disciples were wives, mothers, sisters of these men who cared for them as they travelled and preached.

IIRC, Jesus approached at least one man to follow him and the man basically said - no - I can't just leave without telling me wife and family and Jesus said - there's no time for that - you need to leave earthly things behind and follow heavely things. I will try to find that reference tomorrow but now I am going to bed!

Some even think Jesus was married to Mary Magdalan (sp?)

 

[mysteriew]

yes - personality disorder is right - I thought that was a subcategory of mental disorder/illness - but again - I have no training in the matter!

I think it is considered a mental disorder (like depression, neuroses, or phobias) but not a mental illness. In other words psychiatrists might be called upon to treat them. But they aren't considered insane.

 

[SuziQ]

SuziQ, I have been following your dilligent searching into this aspect, and thank you, as I knew very little about either the LDS or FLDS before this thread. May I ask if the LDS has now officially deleted the Doctrine and Covenants concerning polygamy? Have they gone back to the original Book? Thanks!

I didn't know much about the LDS faith before this thread either. I actually knew more about the FLDS. So there are a few Mormons here in Utah scratching their head over my sudden interest. Especially since I could have givens a rats behind about it before. lol.

The LDS church doesn't go back and change or remove original documents. Actually Brigham Young was into forgery, but that's another story altogether! The LDS Church does issue additions and amendments, the official term escapes me at the moment. That's what they did with polygamy and blood atonement. Anything added after Joseph Smith that is either unproven, unlawful, or harmfull to the LDS church and it's members, is amended and rescinded. When in doubt, they go by the original book.

 

[SuziQ]

In my experience, in what I've witnessed, they had no clue what to do with her. Someone would usually say something to her, she'd get offended and leave to find a new church because they didn't "teach the true word".

That tugs at my heart. Searching for that answer that you'll never be happy with.

 

[Truly]

the women who eventually joined Jesus and the disciples were wives, mothers, sisters of these men who cared for them as they travelled and preached.

!

Wives... mothers...sisters...that sounds awfully familiar after reading this thread!

The rest of the women must have realized that the whole idea is to figure it out for yourself.

ETA: Jesus never locked people up and raped a bunch of kids, either. Jesus is universally loved by many people, christians, buddhists, muslims, (I think), and even those who don't practice a religion, because of his goodness. So I think it is really a bit unfair to compare him with Warren Jeffs.

I really hope we get a forum, so we can all follow the aspects of this case which each of us sees as most relevant. This is so hard to follow.

(...and I have read every word, from day one, and I will continue to read everyone's thoughts and opinions...it would just be so nice to have it separated into threads since there are so many aspects, and so much more to come. )