Warren Jeffs FLDS compound in Texas surrounded by police #4

[golfmom]

http://www.childbrides.org/control_spec_Jeffs_shaped_FLDS_church.html

-From 1954 to 1986, Leroy Johnson ran the church and Bistline said he was a good leader until the late 1970s. Rulon T. Jeffs, Warren's father, was the next one in command and ran the church until his death until 2002.

-Following the 1953 raid, Johnson didn't allow the marriage of underage girls and insisted all the first marriages be legal, but Warren Jeffs routinely married off young girls to older men and wanted marriages consummated immediately, Bistline said.

-Over the years, there have been some evictions of members that fell from favor, but when Rulon Jeffs took over, there were more and under Warren Jeffs, many, many more, Bistline said.

"I bet there are at least 50 men with families that were told to leave," Bistline said. "Some had four and five wives."

The wives of the men kicked out of the community were assigned to other men.

-"It's twisted and perverted with what Warren has been doing and the extreme pressure he has put on the people and corrupted that way of life," Holm said.

 

[golfmom]

Thanks Golfmom! I've bookmarked it for reading later. I note that the author is Benjamin Bistline. He's the man who was interviewed for the publication we discussed yesterday. Here's a link to that publication:

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/*advertiser censored*/2008/04/short_creek_redux_colorado_cit.php

Thanks for the link! The book is great, unfortunately, chunks of it are missing. But still worth the read.

 

[Leila]

I would like to think that the CPS has a staff of trained and qualified social workers and child psychologists that are capable of handling this issue in the best way possible. It is always traumatic for children to undergo change. Heck my own daughter at the age of 7 cried for days when we moved across town! But I also know kids are resilient and if nurtured most will be able to survive and thrive. We've seen several examples of women who have left, and have adjusted to society. I think there are many more reasons to be hopeful for the future of these children than to be negative and second guessing about the treatment they are receiving.

Well said Pepper! I feel we've got to be optimistic about the future for these children.

 

[southcitymom]

I think I understand better now what you're asking. I'm by no means an expert on this group, however, I've been following and reading up on the group since about '03. This is completely my take on what's been going on. I believe that the FLDS did get their start as a legitimate religious dispute between themselves and the LDS. Both sides claim they're "right", but I'll tell you that I think FLDS modeled themselves closer to what was the original founders ideals of the religion. The big dispute between the groups was the practice of polygamy. LDS rejected it in favor of statehood. FLDS refused.

Now, as to how we got to where we are today. It was a process, not a single event. Each successive generation became more cultish. Rulon had folks standing around at designated times waiting for the world to end and he and his followers lifted up to be in charge. If you weren't with the group, you were damned. So, by the end of his time, they were behaving in a pretty cultish manner, IMO. Enter in Warren. Warren ramped everything up to the next level. Sports were pretty much banned, schooling banned, all marriages to be arranged by him, no tv, no internet. Any man that threatened his leadership or wouldn't follow his orders were banned, wives and children confiscated and reassigned. He asked his followers to throw out children's books, to quit reading the bible or the D&C and rely solely on his teachings and prophecies.

Free will has been completely eliminated. Anyone who would stand up removed and damned.

Jeffs handpicked everyone for the Eldorado facility. Those who weren't selected are paying tithes hoping eventually to be worthy enough to enter "YFZ" fearing that when the end comes they may end up with the damned.

Yours is a fair assessment, to be sure. I, like you, have a basic understanding of Mormonism and of how Jeffers FLDS community came to be what it was. And like you - I find the dictates followers were required to abide by to be restricting and obsessive (and some of them, harmful).

But (and this is why I'm such a pain to those who know me!) - can't so many of the things you wrote also apply to mainstream religion? Back in the day, my grandmother and my aunt experienced excommunication from their Episcopal church for getting a divorce. I have Catholic friends whose families have shunned them completely for divorce, homosexuality, etc... because that it what they feel like the church wants them to do and they feel like the church is right.

Leaders of churches try to control the followers - and so has it ever been and still is today. Leaders of churches consider it their Heaven-sanctioned duty to control their followers and some of those methods of control are downright barbaric (if not physically, then spiritually).

My experience is that we only want to call something a Cult when we think the beliefs are just too "outside the norm" of our society. And I hate that - I really do. All the other crazy mainstream church activity that we see - we'll call that Religion, because at least they look like us to a certain degree.

I have never found a satisfactory explanation for how cults differ from churches. It seems to hinge on societal acceptance and I am not down with that.

 

[Leila]

It is my understanding that the caseworkers have been talked to about the cultural issues and about respecting them. Yes, some trauma is ineveitable. But being taken by children's services is traumatic for all kids. So CPS is used to that.

I also thought about the kids not being used to being out of the compound. With the mothers present leaving the compound and with the tension, they most likely had limited perception of the outside world. But now, leaving the shelter to go to group/foster homes, can you imagine their curiosty and their faces as they see open land, traffic, many homes and the other sights that will be so new to them. For them it must be like tourists visiting a new country for the first time.

Even a ride on a bus is new to them. I can well imagine all the new sights and sounds these children will see and experience.

 

[Floh]

Dear Mods, at over 800 posts please may we have a new thread and close this one as i find it so unwieldy . can't sort through.

thanking you in anticipation.

 

[Leila]

I know that offers were made by many who had left the FLDS and CPS, other agencies had talked to them about coming down. I don't know the status of that at the moment. What I DO know, as of a few minutes ago, is that they are letting the children "set the pace" at the moment as to how much interaction they want with "outsiders".

I am organizing a drive at my church for fabric, used sewing machines, sewing supplies,etc. Woo-hoo - FINALLY !! a tangible way to help !!:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

Way to go Barb!:blowkiss:

 

[golfmom]

Being excommunicated from a church is one thing. You wake up the next morning and you still have your family, home and business. Being tossed out of a cult that's spans generations ... leaves me at a loss for words. One morning you wake up and you've lost your wives, children and home, or one day your daddy takes you for a ride and drops you off and says "have a nice life." You're no longer permitted any contact with your mother, siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. Or, one day your husband shows up with a teenager and says this is my new wife.

I just don't know if I'm expressing this well enough, but I really hope that society never accepts this type of lifestyle or community. To me has passed far beyond religion and has now embraced a dictatorial cult status.

Freedom of religion was never meant to be a blank check.

 

[Pepper]

Yours is a fair assessment, to be sure. I, like you, have a basic understanding of Mormonism and of how Jeffers FLDS community came to be what it was. And like you - I find the dictates followers were required to abide by to be restricting and obsessive (and some of them, harmful).

But (and this is why I'm such a pain to those who know me!) - can't so many of the things you wrote also apply to mainstream religion? Back in the day, my grandmother and my aunt experienced excommunication from their Episcopal church for getting a divorce. I have Catholic friends whose families have shunned them completely for divorce, homosexuality, etc... because that it what they feel like the church wants them to do and they feel like the church is right.

Leaders of churches try to control the followers - and so has it ever been and still is today. Leaders of churches consider it their Heaven-sanctioned duty to control their followers and some of those methods of control are downright barbaric (if not physically, then spiritually).

My experience is that we only want to call something a Cult when we think the beliefs are just too "outside the norm" of our society. And I hate that - I really do. All the other crazy mainstream church activity that we see - we'll call that Religion, because at least they look like us to a certain degree.

I have never found a satisfactory explanation for how cults differ from churches. It seems to hinge on societal acceptance and I am not down with that.

You do make some valid points. But I think the main difference between culturally accepted religions and cults is the ability to exercise free will and leave if they want. Everything I hear about the FLDS is that a fenced compound does not allow the freedom to leave or to have visitors from the outside.

Within the Catholic church for example, even monastaries, seminaries and convents allow visits from family, and those that CHOOSE the religious vocation are free to leave it. So from my perspective the difference between a religion and a cult is the degree of pressure one receives to stay within the confines of that faith. I do confess that I sometimes wonder if Jesus' followers would have been considered a cult in that time. I do believe that if someone today was to declare himself the reincarnated Christ, he would surely be branded a cult leader.

I am not currently a church-goer, though I've been raised in the Christian faith. It saddens me that so many lives have been lost over the centuries due to religious differences. I believe a person can be very spiritual without belonging to a specific church or even religion. In my jaded old age I tend to see religion as a business, and the necessity to preach the gospel is a business move to increase the collection plate coffers.

 

[Pepper]

Dear Mods, at over 800 posts please may we have a new thread and close this one as i find it so unwieldy . can't sort through.

thanking you in anticipation.

FORUM, FORUM, WHERE IS THE FORUM? :chicken:

 

[mollymalone]

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f/f39ad.html

The practice reportedly spread quickly as it gained acceptance among the FLDS faithful, which happened to coincide with the explosive growth of state and federal assistance programs. Multiple wives, who were married in church, but not in the eyes of the law, began applying for state assistance. Food Stamps and federal programs like WIC, which provide nutritional assistance to low-income women and children, were also tapped. So were healthcare dollars through Arizona's AHCCCS program, which provides most of the medical insurance for residents in Colorado City AZ. Last year over 4,000 residents were enrolled, reportedly costing the state about $8 million a year.[/B]

 

[southcitymom]

Being excommunicated from a church is one thing. You wake up the next morning and you still have your family, home and business. Being tossed out of a cult that's spans generations ... leaves me at a loss for words. One morning you wake up and you've lost your wives, children and home, or one day your daddy takes you for a ride and drops you off and says "have a nice life." You're no longer permitted any contact with your mother, siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. Or, one day your husband shows up with a teenager and says this is my new wife.

I just don't know if I'm expressing this well enough, but I really hope that society never accepts this type of lifestyle or community. To me has passed far beyond religion and has now embraced a dictatorial cult status.

Freedom of religion was never meant to be a blank check.

You are expressing yourself very well (I don't know that it''s possible for your not to!) - I am just hard-headed and this is an issue that has always confounded me.

I actually do believe that freedom of religion is a blank check unless what you are practicing/preaching harms others. The trouble is : what is harmful to others is subjective and depends on who is doing the considering.

For me, there are mainstream churches that, IMHO, harm others with their teachings. But I would fight every which way in the world for their right to keep selling it for as long as people are willing to buy it.

 

[golfmom]

To me a cult subverts members with total and complete obedience to the leader.

And just because we're discussing cult versus religion, I believe Scientology ranks right up there.

 

[Leila]

The below link takes you to pics of the foster facilities. They look super nice. Scroll down and on the right side it says "touring the sect children's new homes"

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5724209.html

Suzy..............thanks for the link! The two homes featured look very nice and I'm impressed with how much thought seems to have gone into making them kid friendly and welcoming.

 

[southcitymom]

To me a cult subverts members with total and complete obedience to the leader.

And just because we're discussing cult versus religion, I believe Scientology ranks right up there.

I think of Scientology as being more of an experimental psychotherapy group than a church, but then again - I think psychological fitness and spiritual fitness are one and the same. See - I just confuse myself.....:crazy:

So what, for you, is the difference between having total and complete obedience to a "cult" leader and having total and complete obedience to your priest? Is it good to have total and complete obedience to your priest?

 

[mollymalone]

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/9899/flds-woman-defends-groups-beliefs

An FLDS woman defends Warren Jeffs by saying that he was lying low because he had "death threats" and that "people would never follow a man who had committed such crimes. Men who commit such crimes are excommunicated!” The questions asked then in 2005 are the kind being asked now after the raid and her answers are the same mantra that we've heard recently from other flds women.

Edited to add:

A response from another member responds to the woman above and the rest of what he has to say to her is VERY interesting!

Here's snippets: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/10406/flds-member-shares-concerns

" I suppose I am what you would call a “closet doubter” because if I came out in the open, my family and home would be forfeit and possibly, even my life."

"First of all, why do we have to speak in anonymity? If we were truly free, couldn’t we just speak our minds openly and not have to face the severe repercussions of free speech in the FLDS religion, repercussions such as losing our families, homes, businesses and our standing in the community."

"I would like to ask the anonymous person if she can honestly say she’s never heard anyone in the FLDS religion say that, “If the prophet told me to, I would obediently take the lives of even my own family or someone else.”

""Concerning your not personally knowing anyone who was married before the age of sixteen is a pretty hard pill for me to swallow, because I was raised in the same community you were. I well know how common female marriages under the age of sixteen years old are and for you to be entirely oblivious of that knowledge really stretches your credibility, in my opinion. I’ve never heard of anyone in this community living a life that screened from reality. That statement is almost on a par with you saying that you “personally know of no one who is receiving assistance (referring to government welfare assistance) as a single mother who is not indeed a single mother.”

 

[Floh]

FORUM, FORUM, WHERE IS THE FORUM? :chicken:

It would be nice. because i believe this will run and run . . . unfortunately for the children.

 

[golfmom]

I think of Scientology as being more of an experimental psychotherapy group than a church, but then again - I think psychological fitness and spiritual fitness are one and the same. See - I just confuse myself.....:crazy:

So what, for you, is the difference between having total and complete obedience to a "cult" leader and having total and complete obedience to your priest? Is it good to have total and complete obedience to your priest?

LOL, I've never had complete obedience to a priest.

I'm sure Scientologists would be mightly insulted over the idea of their group being an experimental "psychotherapy" group. BTW, they were given tax-exempt status in the early 90's, after waging a fierce war on the IRS, as a church. To the extent of bugging IRS offices and breaking in.

 

[Floh]

I think of Scientology as being more of an experimental psychotherapy group than a church, but then again - I think psychological fitness and spiritual fitness are one and the same. See - I just confuse myself.....:crazy:

So what, for you, is the difference between having total and complete obedience to a "cult" leader and having total and complete obedience to your priest? Is it good to have total and complete obedience to your priest?

I'm not keen on organised religion in any form. what the FLDS does is above and beyond, IMO.

i am a great proponent of individuals living by their choice of conscience. for goodness' sake, i have lived with my partner for over 9 years without the 'benefit' of legal marriage.

this group suck the life of individuality, IMO. and take children, which is the worst of the worst.

 

[Leila]

Very interesting photos - thanks for the link.

Now - back to the "choice" question - did all of these women truly lose their right to decide who to marry or would some of these women tell you "I want and choose to marry whoever Jeffs tells me to."?

Did all these children lose their right to an education or did their parents believe they were choosing to educate them in a different way?

I hear you about the indoctrination and don't know if I am clearly expressing myself. Let's say my mainstream church pastor tells me over and over again that I will not go to heaven if I don't purple popsicles (or insert the sin of your choice here. If I believe the pastor and stop eating purple popsicles, would I be making a choice or would I have been brainwashed by a religious leader?

This all comes down to the cult/religion question. I know there are distinctions between what is a cult and what is a religion - I studied them in some depth in college. They were never particularly meaningful to me. All religions have cultish elements and all cults have religious elements.

When is one genuinely brainswashed as opposed to choosing to follow something that sounds good to them?

I feel that one is genuinely brainwashed when their choice leads to destructive behavior. Certainly, when that choice includes physical, mental, and emotional abuse, imprisonment, and deprivation.