Was BR involved? #2

[DeeDee249]

Just a quick thought....
We know burke had a facebook account....
Has any one messaged him?

....i bet he get the CRAZIEST "fanmail".

His FB page is private. Unless you are in his "friends" group, you can't see what's on his page. You can send a message, but it doesn't go into his main message folder unless you are his "friend". It goes into another folder that most people don't know how to access and you never get a notification that it is there.

 

[allysasaurus]

Yeah ive found a few gems in that folder. Lol

 

[dogperson]

I just purchased James Kolar's book "Foreign Faction". I'm about 1/4 of the way thru it but noticed that in the police questioning, PR seemed to almost make of point of not having seen BR after they arrived home Christmas night. She says she got JonBenet ready for bed and then wrapped some gifts in the basement before going to bed herself. In JRs questioning he says he helped BR assemble one of his gifts and then told him to get ready for bed. Both claim he did not wake up until they woke him to go home with FW. It's also quite odd that both PR and JR claim JonBenet was fast asleep when they went home and she continued to sleep while having her clothing changed and while being tucked into bed. It's as if they want to show that nobody in the family had the opportunity to interact with her after arriving home. But we know this isn't true because she ate the pineapple. I don't for one minute think an intruder fed her a snack. There is too much chance of being discovered and even a close family friend would have no reasonable excuse for sneaking into the house and feeding her pineapple.

Kolar's version of the 911 call is interesting because he puts emphasis on one of BRs words. When JR says "we are not speaking to you" and PR is crying "help me Jesus", the young male voice is heard to say, "Well, what DID you find?" It almost seems as if BR asked a previous question that cannot be heard before JR says "we are not speaking to you". It's like BR has asked about the finding of something and maybe he is told no and he goes on to say, "Well, what DID you find?" I can't decide if JRs response is angry, that he is not speaking to BR because of something BR has done, or whether this is a case of a parent not wanting a child to interrupt and saying something like, "We weren't talking to you." Sort of as a way of telling him to hush up.

I'm on the fence about BRs involvement but it would wrap up a lot of loose ends and things about their behavior that doesn't make sense. On the other hand, perhaps BR was up and aware that JonBenet is missing. Maybe the parents have looked thru the house or outdoors and he asks if they have found her. Since PR is wailing over the ransom letter, maybe BR asks wants to know what it is they have found.

If there truly were vaginal injuries that did not occur on the night of the murder, then a family member or close friend had to be the one who molested her. Who else would have the access and opportunity to get her alone long enough? I don't feel PR was at all involved in that, and it could be she did not know for some time that this was going on, especially since she made so many doctor visits trying to cure the recurrent infections/irritation. The person who had groomed JonBenet to be molested and who was doing the molesting was still most likely the one who fed her the pineapple. What happened after that I can't say.

Another thing in the book that stood out to be is that the housekeeper stated that when she first came to work there, JonBenet wore pull-ups to bed. She says that later on the bed-wetting problem seemed to resolve but that it had come back not long before her death. She says that when she would arrive at work in the mornings, the bed would already be stripped with the sheets in the washer. My question is: can the housekeeper really know if these incidents were the result of bed-wetting or was there some other type of substance on the sheets? Could someone have been stripping the bed on mornings after a molestation incident and setting them to wash before the housekeeper got there? If the housekeeper did not actually see, smell, or handle the soiled sheets, she may just have taken someone's word for it that they were soiled with urine. But it could have been another type of bodily fluid someone wanted to hide.

 

[UKGuy]

dogperson,

the bed would already be stripped with the sheets in the washer. My question is: can the housekeeper really know if these incidents were the result of bed-wetting or was there some other type of substance on the sheets? Could someone have been stripping the bed on mornings after a molestation incident and setting them to wash before the housekeeper got there? If the housekeeper did not actually see, smell, or handle the soiled sheets, she may just have taken someone's word for it that they were soiled with urine. But it could have been another type of bodily fluid someone wanted to hide.

Good point, yes it might have some other body fluid in question. In the autopsy report the coroner notes prior healed internal injuries, which do indicate prior chronic abuse.

.

 

[allysasaurus]

Speaking of body fluid.... if burke gave her a bit of a train track charge, would it be strong enough to cause jb to lose control of her bladder like a stun gun would? I think they found urine on the basement carpet?

 

[andreww]

Speaking of body fluid.... if burke gave her a bit of a train track charge, would it be strong enough to cause jb to lose control of her bladder like a stun gun would? I think they found urine on the basement carpet?

Trains run on very low voltage, not a lot more than a battery. Its kind of important that our kids aren't electrocuting themselves lol.

 

[dogperson]

I believe it is thought the bladder released at the moment of death. Good thought on the train shock though. Thinking outside the box. I'm dying to know what Kolar believes the purpose of the train track was but he says he cannot say.

 

[OliviaG1996]

I believe it is thought the bladder released at the moment of death. Good thought on the train shock though. Thinking outside the box. I'm dying to know what Kolar believes the purpose of the train track was but he says he cannot say.

I wonder if the circular mark on her face was caused by a Lego when she fell to the ground. I know some say it was caused by a button, but I can't really fathom an explanation where she would be laying on, for example, a sweater, where the button would be embedding into her skin.

 

[allysasaurus]

I wonder if the circular mark on her face was caused by a Lego when she fell to the ground. I know some say it was caused by a button, but I can't really fathom an explanation where she would be laying on, for example, a sweater, where the button would be embedding into her skin.

Ive never heard of this or read this anywhere. Can you post a link?

 

[OliviaG1996]

Ive never heard of this or read this anywhere. Can you post a link?

Sure! Here's an excerpt of cynic's post on this thread: Ramsey Project Rebuttal (Non Intruder Posters Only)

[Snipped]

Erin Moriarty: "How sure are you that it's not a stun gun?"
Dr. Werner Spitz: "Well I'm a hundred percent sure because stun gun injuries don't look that way."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Dr. Werner Spitz, a nationally known pathologist who has worked on major cases including the assassination of J.F. Kennedy."
Dr. Werner Spitz: "Are you telling me that this looks to you like the other one, the one that JonBenet has? They don't look like that to me at all. A stun gun injury is an electrical burn, it's a burn essentially. And these don't look like burns."
Erin Moriarty: (Voice Over) "Instead, Spitz believes the large dark mark on JonBenet's face was left by a snap on a piece of clothing"
Dr. Werner Spitz: "You know like the snaps they have on blue jeans for instance. If you look at this one below the ear, this thing here. If you look at it closely with a magnify glass you will see within this brownish mark is a boat shaped structure which is missing with any of the other injuries."
48 Hours Investigates - Searching for a Killer, October 4, 2002

Also, there's talk of the origin of that mark on this thread: Black Mark On Her Mandible

 

[allysasaurus]

Thanks!

 

[InstantProof]

I just purchased James Kolar's book "Foreign Faction". I'm about 1/4 of the way thru it but noticed that in the police questioning, PR seemed to almost make of point of not having seen BR after they arrived home Christmas night. She says she got JonBenet ready for bed and then wrapped some gifts in the basement before going to bed herself. In JRs questioning he says he helped BR assemble one of his gifts and then told him to get ready for bed. Both claim he did not wake up until they woke him to go home with FW. It's also quite odd that both PR and JR claim JonBenet was fast asleep when they went home and she continued to sleep while having her clothing changed and while being tucked into bed. It's as if they want to show that nobody in the family had the opportunity to interact with her after arriving home. But we know this isn't true because she ate the pineapple. I don't for one minute think an intruder fed her a snack. There is too much chance of being discovered and even a close family friend would have no reasonable excuse for sneaking into the house and feeding her pineapple.

Kolar's version of the 911 call is interesting because he puts emphasis on one of BRs words. When JR says "we are not speaking to you" and PR is crying "help me Jesus", the young male voice is heard to say, "Well, what DID you find?" It almost seems as if BR asked a previous question that cannot be heard before JR says "we are not speaking to you". It's like BR has asked about the finding of something and maybe he is told no and he goes on to say, "Well, what DID you find?" I can't decide if JRs response is angry, that he is not speaking to BR because of something BR has done, or whether this is a case of a parent not wanting a child to interrupt and saying something like, "We weren't talking to you." Sort of as a way of telling him to hush up.

I'm on the fence about BRs involvement but it would wrap up a lot of loose ends and things about their behavior that doesn't make sense. On the other hand, perhaps BR was up and aware that JonBenet is missing. Maybe the parents have looked thru the house or outdoors and he asks if they have found her. Since PR is wailing over the ransom letter, maybe BR asks wants to know what it is they have found.

I think it's worth noting that the parents distance themselves from JB once they get home, PR does not mention her by name in the 911 call, and the ransom note does not use her name either.

I think on the 911 call Burke is asking about the ransom note. His parents "found" something that prompted commotion and 911 call and one of them is probably looking at it. I think it's possible he injured JB and then went to bed and Patsy found her later. In the morning he's curious if they found JB but instead they are on the phone yelling about a note.

 

[OliviaG1996]

I think it's worth noting that the parents distance themselves from JB once they get home, PR does not mention her by name in the 911 call, and the ransom note does not use her name either.

I think on the 911 call Burke is asking about the ransom note. His parents "found" something that prompted commotion and 911 call and one of them is probably looking at it. I think it's possible he injured JB and then went to bed and Patsy found her later. In the morning he's curious if they found JB but instead they are on the phone yelling about a note.

Also, the kind of toy JR said he was helping BR assemble changed almost every single time he told someone about it, whether it was LE or the readers of his book/books (I'm not sure if it was told in both of them). I thought that was interesting as well.

 

[inspector rex]

Also, the kind of toy JR said he was helping BR assemble changed almost every single time he told someone about it, whether it was LE or the readers of his book/books (I'm not sure if it was told in both of them). I thought that was interesting as well.

Can you qualify this with some quotes?

Just wondering why you think it was inconsistent and why you think that was important.

 

[OliviaG1996]

Can you qualify this with some quotes?

Just wondering why you think it was inconsistent and why you think that was important.

Turns out JR did write about two different toys in each of his books.

From The Death of Innocence:
"Meanwhile, I went downstairs to try to get Burke to come up to bed, but he was deeply involved in assembling the miniature parking garage he had received that morning. I could tell he wasn't going to go to bed until the project was finished, so I settled down on the floor beside him. Helping him complete what his mind was focused on was the best way to get us both in bed quickly."

From The Other Side of Suffering:
"Burke plays downstairs by the Christmas tree. He's trying to assemble a mechanical robot made of the Legos he got for Christmas so I sit down on the floor to help him put it together, but it's way too complicated for tonight."

From JR's BPD Interview (April 30, 1997):
TOM TRUJILLO: Okay. (inaudible) Let’s go back to the 25th, sorry about that. Get home about nine, nine-fifteenish, Burke’s downstairs playing; do you remember what kind of toy that was?
JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was a little thing that kind of unfolded, and it was like car ramp or something and then it folded all back together and it made something else.
TOM TRUJILLO: Was it like (inaudible) . . .Was it like putting stickers on it?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was a plastic thing he had to assemble and he had some stickers too, and uh, he was intent on getting it done before he went to bed, so...
TOM TRUJILLO: Did you help Burke get into his pajamas that night?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, like I do every night.
(If I'm correct, it seems as though he's speaking about the miniature parking garage toy in this interview).

To answer your question, I don't think that this was the most important inconsistency that the Ramseys have conjured up, but I think it's interesting because I would think that someone would remember every single little detail about the night one of their family members was murdered. I would understand completely if it was just a minor error that isn't that important, such as this one, but when almost all of the Ramseys' interviews are filled with a bunch of "I don't know"s and "I don't remember"s, every inconsistency of theirs, big or small, makes me wonder what the truth of the matter really is.

 

[inspector rex]

Turns out JR did write about two different toys in each of his books.

From The Death of Innocence:
"Meanwhile, I went downstairs to try to get Burke to come up to bed, but he was deeply involved in assembling the miniature parking garage he had received that morning. I could tell he wasn't going to go to bed until the project was finished, so I settled down on the floor beside him. Helping him complete what his mind was focused on was the best way to get us both in bed quickly."

From The Other Side of Suffering:
"Burke plays downstairs by the Christmas tree. He's trying to assemble a mechanical robot made of the Legos he got for Christmas so I sit down on the floor to help him put it together, but it's way too complicated for tonight."

From JR's BPD Interview (April 30, 1997):
TOM TRUJILLO: Okay. (inaudible) Let’s go back to the 25th, sorry about that. Get home about nine, nine-fifteenish, Burke’s downstairs playing; do you remember what kind of toy that was?
JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it was a little thing that kind of unfolded, and it was like car ramp or something and then it folded all back together and it made something else.
TOM TRUJILLO: Was it like (inaudible) . . .Was it like putting stickers on it?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was a plastic thing he had to assemble and he had some stickers too, and uh, he was intent on getting it done before he went to bed, so...
TOM TRUJILLO: Did you help Burke get into his pajamas that night?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, like I do every night.
(If I'm correct, it seems as though he's speaking about the miniature parking garage toy in this interview).

To answer your question, I don't think that this was the most important inconsistency that the Ramseys have conjured up, but I think it's interesting because I would think that someone would remember every single little detail about the night one of their family members was murdered. I would understand completely if it was just a minor error that isn't that important, such as this one, but when almost all of the Ramseys' interviews are filled with a bunch of "I don't know"s and "I don't remember"s, every inconsistency of theirs, big or small, makes me wonder what the truth of the matter really is.

An event such as having your daughter murdered in your home can be so traumatic that small details that occurred prior can become very hazy.
I thought the description sounded less like Lego and more like the Transformer toy of the day.
Something that converts from robot to car ramp.

It was probable he didn't have much idea of children's toys and a Transformer was a fairly new concept and by it's nature, several toys in one.

The Optimus Prime toy of that era is similar to his description. http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Prime_(G1)/toys#Generation_1

 

[allysasaurus]

Im glad someone mentioned the toy.... i was going to say it sounded like a transformer but i was seven at the time and couldnt remember if transformers was around..... the only boy toys i really can recall from the 90s are anything power rangers and hot wheels. I know my cousin (6 at the time) had a car garage that folded up into a suitcase type deal, and it had sticker decals you put on the outside.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I've read this entire #2 thread. Maybe it was discussed in thread #1?

If BR killed his sister, then how could the parents sleep at night without thinking that he might come after them? Wouldn't that enter their minds? And worst of all, how about the horrible idea that he might kill someone else and they'd be partly responsible for it?

Those are terrible thoughts and they're only what ifs. I feel sorry for BR. It must be horrible growing up with a big scarlet 'R' tattooed to your chest. Even today he can't get away from this.

Maybe JR and PR did live in fear. They may have slept with deadbolts on all the bedroom doors for all we know.

As for the idea that he could kill someone else and they'd be partially responsible...well, when you live in denial, you have no responsibility for anything!

 

[DeeDee249]

Ive never heard of this or read this anywhere. Can you post a link?

It was one of the forensic specialists, don't recall if it was Wecht or Spitz, who suggested the cheek mark had a "boat-like structure" within it that was suggestive of a button or snap. The coroner who did the autopsy made no such suggestion, limiting his description to "abrasions".

 

[icedtea4me]

I wonder if the circular mark on her face was caused by a Lego when she fell to the ground. I know some say it was caused by a button, but I can't really fathom an explanation where she would be laying on, for example, a sweater, where the button would be embedding into her skin.

The abrasion just below her right ear was 4/16" x 6/16" and the one on the right side of her chin was 2/16" x 3/16". I used a ruler to draw those on a sheet of paper. The first one, imo, closely fits the width of a pinkie nail. (I'm female.)