Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Jbrown324320]

Burke seems to have the rich person Trump syndrome- do not say anything he doesn't like or he will sue you. He also looks like he is the cat that swallowed the canary.

 

[Userid]

To the first bolded comment, you are the one who claimed definitively to know what was going on with Burke during the DP interview, not me. Indeed, I made it clear that we have no way of knowing for sure. To the second bolded comment, I'm sorry you are confused, but I never once claimed Burke was well-adjusted. In fact, given the strangeness of his behavior and comments both as a child and as an adult, I specifically said my guess is he's been very odd his entire life. There is some significant support with regard to this from those brave enough to speak of Burke's behavior before his sister died as well as the taped interviews shortly after the murder. You are claiming any oddness - or as you term it, nervousness - is because he's been overly sheltered. I disagree that "sheltering" is the sole or even primary cause of Burke's strange behavior and comments. Yes, he was shielded from the press as a child in the manner I explained above, but he appears to have had typical adult life opportunities and experiences with school and work. And anyone who has ever gone to school or worked with other people knows that just because someone is a good student or competent worker does not automatically equate to them being well-adjusted. I've worked with some very odd people, many who were quite competent in their work. (Heck, I worked for a manager at a donut shop when I was a teen who was very odd, but quite competent at work. Turns out he kidnapped and raped a girl my age and then tied her alive to a tree in a forest, leaving her to die. Glad I never took those offered ride homes from him...but I digress.)

Burke's mother died when he was still a teenager. It appears that he has been living independently from his father for some time, possibly since moving into his college dorm many years ago. Chocking up his strangeness towards his sister and her death today at age 30 to his sheltering many years ago seems to me to be a very short-sighted conclusion.

And so again I say it is my opinion that Burke has been a very odd fellow for a very long time. There is some evidence to support that he was disturbed before his sister died. Today he works, he went away to school, he's 30 years old, and so he's spent plenty of time living and working with other people. And yet he giggled about his sister's dead droopy eye. Who does that? You and Lin Wood's pal Dr. Phil chock it up to sheltering. My guess is that it's a much more complex diagnosis.

(To the bolded) A person who is socially awkward.

Also, no, I'm not claiming the fact he was sheltered the majority of his life as the sole reason for his socially awkward behavior, but I do believe it is a part of it. Honestly, people who aren't sheltered also develop socially awkward personalities as well.

You're still talking out of both sides of your mouth. In essence, you are saying he isn't socially awkward because he's been a, for all intents and purposes (and according to the few pics on his facebook page), a "normal" adult; but now you're saying he's always been odd. You also have the comical gall to claim "it's a more complex diagnosis" than that in the same breath as simplistically stating he's "been odd for a long time." That's complex?

 

[Userid]

Userid,
You keep coming up the right answers but arrive at the wrong conclusions.

BR is not doing Dr Phil so he can become famous, its a damage limitation exercise.

BR failed to look good on Dr Phil, with all his physical mannerisms and off cue smiling, he was not a good Dr Phil pupil, he never passed his media screening.


Who told you that?

Just smile and be yourself is standard media advice, as is what to wear. You ever watch JR talking, he sneaks in his lizard sneer regularly, with tongue added for extra effect?

.

Wow, when did I ever even allude to the bolded in the slightest? I never once mentioned fame at all in any of my postings! That's quite comical.

I've clearly stated: he's done this to make himself look "less guilty," to show himself in a "positive light" so to speak -- and it backfired.

You'd have to think BR was the dumbest person on earth if he took such inane advice as "just smile and be yourself" so literally and to such a degree that he was unable to ever realize consciously smiling while discussing his sister's death would be his complete undoing. Again, it's preposterous. This is a college-educated male with a white-collar computer profession. Being socially awkward (as I've proposed) is one thing: being a complete idiot who is unable to understand the most basic of advice is another. Not only that, but you have absolutely zero proof that he was ever told this, by anyone. If he was coached, he would have been coached a bit more thoroughly than simply "just smile and be yourself." That isn't even coaching: it's equivalent to innocently telling someone to say "cheese" when a picture is taken.

 

[kanzz]

Body language expert Dr. Lillan Glass--
Ph.D. at age 24 in Communication Disorders from the University of Minnesota.
MS in Speech from the University of Michigan.
Magna *advertiser censored* Laude with a BS from Bradley University in Speech and Hearing Sciences.

Burke Ramsey Initial Interview Contradicts [URL="https://drlillianglassbodylanguageblog.wordpress.com/2016/09/10/burke-ramsey-initial-interview-contradicts-dr-phils-but-smiles-in-both-when-discussing-mothers-anguish/"]Dr[/URL] Phil’s But Smiles In Both When Discussing Mother’s Anguish

"The most disturbing part of watching Burke at 9 and Burke at 29 was how elated he was at how upset his mother was in regard to JonBenet. His 'duping delight' smiles in both interviews speak volumes to me."

"Just as he did when he was 9, at age 29, Burke also smiles as he speaks of his mother’s despair in relation to JonBenet. This is very telling in my view.

It shows that he may have enjoyed seeing his mother suffer emotionally. Was this payback for all of times he may have been suffering and not getting enough attention because his mother was giving all of her attention to JonBenet? Was he getting emotionally or perhaps physically abused by his mother. Was he her annoyance? Was he perhaps pleased that the tables were now turned and that it was his mother who was in tears and not him?"

 

[HarmonyE.]

You're still talking out of both sides of your mouth. In essence, you are saying he isn't socially awkward because he's been a, for all intents and purposes (and according to the few pics on his facebook page), a "normal" adult; but now you're saying he's always been odd. You also have the comical gall to claim "it's a more complex diagnosis" than that in the same breath as simplistically stating he's "been odd for a long time." That's complex?

I did not say he was "normal". Never said anything of the sort. I said he has had normal opportunities and life experiences directly in response to your insistence that he's been intensely sheltered his whole life. "Socially awkward" to me means shy or nervous or someone who generally doesn't know how to respond in social settings. Deciding to bring up JonBenet's droopy eye with a freakin' smile on his face (and he brought it up on his own, Dr. Phil did not ask him to describe her dead body) is not "socially awkward". "Pathological" is more like it.

And so to sum up to avoid any further confusion on your part:

I completely disagree with you and Lin Wood that Burke is merely "socially awkward" because he's been so "sheltered" all his life.

 

[Userid]

I never said he was "sheltered his whole life." I said the majority of his life 18 years, compared to 12, which is accurate.

 

[flourish]

Are you saying that adults never smile and smirk, yes or no?

Well but that's not really a fair question considering the poster provided context.


Do adults sometimes ask questions they know the answers to already? Yes or no?

Do adults ask questions not to get an answer but to challenge? Yes or no?

Does this technique work? Yes or no?

 

[kanzz]

"Socially awkward" was an excuse invented by Phil. :scream:

At 30 years of age, he is no longer a "boy". He is a grown-*advertiser censored* man. Fully responsible for his own actions and behavior. There's no need to make excuses for him. "Socially awkward" my arse.

It was 8 years after the incident that he became of age. And 12 years since then. Grow. Up.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Burke seems to have the rich person Trump syndrome- do not say anything he doesn't like or he will sue you. He also looks like he is the cat that swallowed the canary.

There are plenty of wealthy thin-skinned or greedy bullies out there who will sue any person or entity at the drop of a hat because they enjoy being bullies, or winning the game or don't believe other people should have First Amendment rights. But with the Ramseys - now including Burke - I think all of the litigation has had a very specific purpose. To ensure the silence of others who know too much. And it's worked very well so far. They weren't afraid of someone like Steve Thomas, who was expressing his personal conclusions based upon what the tainted investigation revealed and didn't have any first hand personal experiences with the family before or just after the crime. They probably didn't get much money from him either. But in "successfully" suing him and others like him, they were sending a message to the real threats. We can only hope that Burke fails miserably with this go-round and before they get too old or pass away, those who have kept their mouths shut about what they know about Burke Hamilton Ramsey and his parents will feel free to finally speak out.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I never said he was "sheltered his whole life." I said the majority of his life 18 years, compared to 12, which is accurate.

....:facepalm:

 

[flourish]

I know you asked IcedTea4me, but if I may: I wouldn't call it "good" but then again, I certainly wouldn't take his weird quirks he displayed as "evidence" that he committed the crime. Have you never known anyone that smiles when they get nervous? I've known many people like this, to the point where it's almost annoying that they smile. Smiling at inappropriate times the way BR does is creepy -- don't get me wrong -- but not unprecedented; it has been well-documented in human behavior. People react differently to anxiety, and this is a well-known reaction. For a kid who has been sheltered his whole life from everything, particularly since this crime occurred, I can certainly understand his anxiety of being interviewed by Dr. Phil on television, and that anxiety manifesting in nervous laughter.

My father is a very socially awkward person. When he gets nervous, he laughs. It used to infuriate all 5 of his emotional daughters to no end. Does that mean he doesn't take things seriously? No. Does it mean he struggles with he to react in a way his audience deems appropriate? Yes.

While I found Burke and his mannerisms disturbing and inappropriate, just that on its own doesn't stand, for me, as evidence of his guilt. However, when I look at it in the whole of all the information, it is notable to me.

But I've been a BDI since before I knew there was a "BDI" or a websleuths, so all this new information just solidified that opinion.

 

[flourish]

Are you saying his parents never sheltered him growing up? Because if so, I'd say that's false for obvious reasons. If you feel like you can gage a true-person's personality by the small sample of photos you've come across on Facebook in deeming his level (or lack thereof) of adjustment and/or his particular personality traits, I'd simply say that's a baseless source to determine such conclusions. Obviously, even a person with moderate to high social anxiety disorder can have a tight-knit group of friends (who he posts pictures with on Facebook, say) and survive college -- certainly is nowhere near impossible. Age has nothing to do with it -- adults behave this way well into their lives. It is a personality quirk.

This isn't considered "a piece of the puzzle," because it (the smiling) doesn't prove anything. It's people trying to find anything they can to make him guilty and prove the image they already have/had of him.

The only thing that one should glean from that interview that has any importance whatsoever is how he said he was up at night when everyone else is asleep. The smiling was completely and utterly involuntary -- it was a genuine reaction to his anxiety.

eta: respectfully bolded by me

To be fair, while you don't consider it to be a piece of the puzzle, others may. I don't take information and "try to make him guilty," with it, I see information and sometimes that information just solidifies beliefs or thoughts I'd had previously. I think it's in-genuine to say people look at evidence and make observations during interviews in order to "make him guilty." He's guilty or he's not. Observations of his behavior can glean information and support or not support theories. If people start deciding that observations of people are only to "make them guilty" or "not make them guilty," then perhaps people need to revisit their entire views on the value of observation for any reason.

And you can bet if he had sobbed and wailed and gnashed his teeth and pulled out his hair in a display of grief, people would be saying that showed grief and horror and trauma. Is it only "wrong" if the observations are used to support a viewpoint that goes against the one you're holding (not a personal "you," just a general "you")?

Let's consider Casey Anthony for a moment. I think it is safe to say the majority of people who observed her photos where she was dancing in her blue dress would say she appeared carefree and gleeful. Carefree and gleeful aren't usually the terms used to describe a mother whose child is "missing," or "kidnapped" or "died accidentally in the swimming pool but we're pretending that didn't happen until trial."

Behavior offers information. No, it shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum, but in the context. When I describe the death of my brother, which occurred when I was 5, I may smile when recounting what a smart alec tease he was. I am unlikely to smile when describing his purple lips and how I thought the police were taking our garbage out because I didn't know what a body bag was. But then, I'm not considered "socially awkward."

IDK I'm starting to ramble...

 

[Evamo]

Evamo, I'm intrigued that you are seeing it in 6 parts in your country. It was originally meant to be three 2hr episodes in the US but only two aired - the third one was scrapped at the last moment for unknown reasons - probably related to that lawsuit Lin Wood is threatening. Jim Clemente and Laura from the show also have a true crime podcast and they dedicated a few episodes to the case, but they abruptly stopped doing podcasts and had the last JBR podcast removed from iTunes before most people could download it (though a few people, such as myself, got it in time).

Would you mind answering a few questions once you finish watching the whole thing? There were some clips that never aired in the trailer that I'd like to know more about:

- there's footage of the team outside BRs house trying to get him to speak with them but he ran away. What was that like?
- in the first episode they talk to Fleet and Priscilla White off camera, but we never see any more of them. Do the Whites show up at any other point?
- they played what sounded like a very angry Pam Paugh saying "Don't you EVER contact me again." Any context for that?

Thanks!

I just watched the visit to Burke's house last night. That was in the final episode. I got so tired I turned it off 21 minutes in. I am going to watch the rest tonight.

Basically, the ex-Scotland Yard behavioural analyst (I always forget her name!) started looking for Burke on social media. She found him on FB and Twitter, but his Twitter was set to private so only approved followers could see his tweets.

She hired a private investigator to attempt to locate him, who narrowed it down to a few places. She then went to his work place and sat outside with a pair of binoculars looking for him to show up. He didn't. They ended up finding his room-mate of all people and followed him home. Burke was there and they were chasing him and calling out to him. He (or his room-mate, it wasn't clear to me) asked them to stop trespassing on his property and they left.

The Scotland Yard lady also called JR and asked him to speak to her. She tried to cajole him to call back by leaving a message saying she doesn't believe he killed or sexually assaulted his daughter and she really wants to help him get his story out. He never called back.

They also spoke to the lady who was school principal at BRs school when JBR was killed. She said she used to have long talks with Patsy and that she considered her a friend. She wouldn't speak out against the family. They also spoke to a guy who was a youth pastor at the time, who said BR was a normal kid.

I nearly forgot, they also spoke to a family law lady from CO who read the indictments by the GJ that were made public in 2013. She said the way they were worded, identically, charging PR and JR for being accessories and placing a child in danger, meant, in her opinion, that there was a third person involved, not that they were actually accusing one of the parents of the killing.

They showed footage of a detective interviewing BR 11 days after the death. They showed him the photo of the pineapple and milk in the bowl and the glass of tea. Interestingly, when asked what he was looking at, he easily identified the tea and the bowl, but pretended not to be able to tell what was in the bowl. Then they cut to footage of the autopsy report which said she had pineapple in her stomach and that it was hours after dinner because her dinner was already digested. They had some discussion about BRs body language when looking at the pineapple picture, saying it was really awkward and that he looked ready to leap out of the chair and run away.

I didn't see the White's again after that first ep, and I don't remember Pam Paugh, but I'll have another look through - I napped through some of it on Sunday afternoon (Work Christmas party the night before LOL) and might have missed that.

It's very interesting that we get to see the whole thing in Australia, yet they cut some for the American audience!

One thing that is very clear from this series - the whole team is convinced BR is responsible for the death of JBR. They even had a child come in and whack a mannequin head covered in pigskin and a blonde wig to show that a child could have caused the blow to JBRs head.

 

[icedtea4me]

Well but that's not really a fair question considering the poster provided context.

Rott Mom stated " That entire interview showed him smiling and
smirking except when it came to his mother (PR). He's a grown man now acting like he's a young
child."

In order for Burke to be acting like a young child, that would mean that smiling and smirking would be actions only a young child would do.

Do adults sometimes ask questions they know the answers to already? Yes or no?

Yes.

Do adults ask questions not to get an answer but to challenge? Yes or no?

Yes.

Does this technique work? Yes or no?

Yes.

 

[HMSHood]

I wonder if there is any Burke Ramsey's handwriting out there.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I wonder if there is any Burke Ramsey's handwriting out there.

Why do you wonder this?

 

[singularity]

I agree with the bolded but the unbolded doesn't answer my question. Why would him overhearing adults talking about the murder prompt him NOT to mention her strangulation when asked about her COD? That's the only thing he should definitely know from overhearing adults, whether he heard anything about head injuries or not. And we know from Kolar's book that Burke knew she was strangled by the 28th. So why, a few weeks later, does someone who knows for a fact his sister was strangled say, "I know what happened" and then say a knife was involved and she was hit on the head with a hammer - but not mention she was strangled? Did he forget?

I don't know that it means anything either way (pro-BDI or anti-BDI) but it's something I noticed that seems odd.

I'm not sure I can answer the question. What we do know is that just like mommy and daddy, he has made conflicting statements. One thing that makes those conflicting statements interesting is that his 'body of work' is much smaller than his parents. He's been interviewed so few times it should've been very simple to keep his story straight.

Other than just hearing or participating in casual conversations about the murder in their circle, in between pineapple snacks he could've listened in on private chatter between John and Patsy. If he's as sneaky and devious as some believe, such behavior is to be expected.

Does he like pineapple or not?
Was Jonbenet awake or asleep?

Obi-Wan taught him well.....also seems to have taught him fairly quickly or maybe that tactic is just a strand of Ramsey DNA.

 

[Miz Adventure]

I wonder if there is any Burke Ramsey's handwriting out there.

None. For the last 20 years he's hasn't been allowed anything sharper than wax crayons.



Getting back to THAT interview with Dr. Phil - it's rather telling isn't it, that the doc felt the need to make a separate video giving us 'reasons' for BR's strange demeanour. It just goes to show the amount of viewers who were disturbed (or confused) by it.

 

[Userid]

....:facepalm:

How you know when to stop debating someone: when they resort to emoticons. Agree to disagree.

 

[Userid]

eta: respectfully bolded by me

To be fair, while you don't consider it to be a piece of the puzzle, others may. I don't take information and "try to make him guilty," with it, I see information and sometimes that information just solidifies beliefs or thoughts I'd had previously. I think it's in-genuine to say people look at evidence and make observations during interviews in order to "make him guilty." He's guilty or he's not. Observations of his behavior can glean information and support or not support theories. If people start deciding that observations of people are only to "make them guilty" or "not make them guilty," then perhaps people need to revisit their entire views on the value of observation for any reason.

And you can bet if he had sobbed and wailed and gnashed his teeth and pulled out his hair in a display of grief, people would be saying that showed grief and horror and trauma. Is it only "wrong" if the observations are used to support a viewpoint that goes against the one you're holding (not a personal "you," just a general "you")?

Let's consider Casey Anthony for a moment. I think it is safe to say the majority of people who observed her photos where she was dancing in her blue dress would say she appeared carefree and gleeful. Carefree and gleeful aren't usually the terms used to describe a mother whose child is "missing," or "kidnapped" or "died accidentally in the swimming pool but we're pretending that didn't happen until trial."

Behavior offers information. No, it shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum, but in the context. When I describe the death of my brother, which occurred when I was 5, I may smile when recounting what a smart alec tease he was. I am unlikely to smile when describing his purple lips and how I thought the police were taking our garbage out because I didn't know what a body bag was. But then, I'm not considered "socially awkward."

IDK I'm starting to ramble...

My point is this: it's one TV interview. People act like they can know all about a person from a single (multi-part) interview, or a facebook page. All I'm saying is, you can't.

Did I think it was weird that BR laughed at parts during his interview? Absolutely. Does that prove he's a killer? No, to me it doesn't. It does to some people -- and I've supposed why (because they most likely already thought he was guilty in the first place). I suppose it boils down to personal experience too. Like I said, I know people who react this way. I've seen people laugh when a tough subject is brought up, including the death of a loved one. It's strange -- yes -- but it isn't unprecedented.

To me, Casey Anthony has shown herself to be way more guilty than BR has -- that's an apples to oranges comparison. The fact she didn't call police for a month (or however long it was) alone proves her guilt. Also, it's not so much the fact she's "smiling" in those pictures that proves her guilt, it's the fact that she's partying in general that make her guilty.

I've pretty much said all I want about the topic and this is becoming a circular argument, but for people who are saying things like, "Oh, this is just an excuse Dr. Phil made up," and "You're no better than Lin Wood,".....just stop. That's quite immature and you're better than that. I didn't read a single thing from Lin Wood when I came to this conclusion, and no, this isn't just a convenient excuse Dr. Phil thought up on the spot to protect BR, as evidenced by this article. Believe it or not, there are other sources out there than Lin Wood and Dr. Phil -- crazy, I know, but they're not the only writers that exist. Here is an excerpt from the article below:

Freud, of course, had an eloquent speculation on this paradox. In his 1928 investigation into humor, Wit and Its Relation to the Unconscious, Freud argued that laughter was a coping mechanism, a way of dealing with the unspeakable pain of everyday life. He gives the example of a prisoner about to locked in the gallows, who says to his guard: “Well, this is a good beginning to the week”. The prisoner makes a joke because he doesn’t want to cry; his ego distracts his conscious brain from the unspeakable misery of the moment.

http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2010/02/22/laughter-and-grief/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/happiness-in-world/201101/why-we-laugh

https://www.reference.com/health/causes-nervous-laughter-5ca1cdb1da4cbf9d#

If you want to believe that BR laughing is evidence of something more sinister, that is your right of course, but I'm simply saying, there are a myriad of reasons why he could have been laughing -- reasons that are well documented by psychologists and sociologists alike (yes, other than Dr. Phil). Admitting such doesn't automatically disqualify BR as a suspect; it's simply stating a fact.