Was Burke Involved? # 4

[kanzz]

A. If she was left lying on her back after the blow, and was then turned over onto her tummy, would that not have the same effect? B. What makes you think she was conscious, her upright position? C. What if she was being held upright, say being cuddled, by an adult sitting with her, for instance?

Marked "A, B, C" by me.

Bear with me, Tortoise.
A. I don't think so.. Because - gravity.
B. Yes, upright. Gravity. Maybe not conscious, but head would have been in a normal anatomical position.
C. Maybe. But still - head probably upright.

I'm not married to this and this is not my baby. In fact, in kinda creeps me out. I just thought I found something I couldn't ignore. J/S I'm hoping I can figure out a logical explanation for it pretty soon so I can let it go.

One thing worth mentioning - we have to remember that the hemorrhage doesn't happen all at once and we don't really know how fast these injuries bled (though I suspect it was fairly rapidly). Patients with traumatic brain injuries often (approx 50% of the time) have what is known as a lucid interval following the injury before they begin to deteriorate. Remarkably, the displaced fragment of her skull might have allowed some of the pressure to be relieved for a period of time.

 

[Tortoise]

What sickens me about this possibility is that my theory has been based on them thinking she was dead. This really opens it up to murder.

 

[kanzz]

What sickens me about this possibility is that my theory has been based on them thinking she was dead. This really opens it up to murder.

Sorry. It kind of reinforces my belief that BDI all - the head bash, molestation, and ligature strangulation. (But I think PR came down later and did the staging and undoing).

I'd like to stop myself for a minute here to say something about "ligature strangulation".
By definition: "Ligature strangulation is a type of strangulation that occurs with the use of a mass that is not the body weight. In other words, ligature strangulation does not require suspension of the physical body. Instead, it requires the use of a cord-like object, such as a rope."
The AR says, "The ligature furrow... It is almost completely horizontal with slight upward deviation from the horizontal towards the back of the neck."
So, it seems that this, in addition to the urine on her clothing and on the carpet, would tell us she was on her belly when she was strangled.

 

[otg]

(bbm)

That's a really good question. I'm so glad you asked, because it forced me to look at something in the AR I hadn't noticed before.

From the AR: "Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area ofscalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area." (The orbital ridge is the bony ridge below the eyebrow.)
The scalp hemorrhage indicates bleeding under the scalp, rather than on the scalp. Not the same thing we see in a bruise (hematoma) that we get in our skin. Bruising might been visible at some point, I suppose, but I really can't venture a guess.

But, because I re-read this line in the AR - I am now wondering about other issues, including the timing between the head blow and the ligature strangulation... and one more thing...

This is making me think really hard. I might need some time with this, but I'll give you my initial thoughts anyway. It isn't what I have been thinking prior to now. My gut tells me that this is saying that blood from the blow seeped downward - toward the right temporoparietal area from the orbital ridge and posteriorly all the way to the occipital area - which would mean that her head remained upright for some period of time after that blow.

Hi, Kanzz. That quoted line from the AR is Meyer describing what he first saw when he cut and peeled back (reflected) her scalp. He also described it as being approximately 7" x 4". If you compare the location of this area of hemorrhage to the linear fracture, I think you'll see that they are related. I believe the blood is coming from the broken bridging blood vessels underneath the skull which were sheared by the sudden "opening up" of the fracture. Once broken, they bled through the open fracture to the outside of the skull under the periosteum (the membrane of connective tissue between the scalp and the skull). That layer of blood filled an area along the linear fracture about two inches on either side of it. I don't really think any of it had anything to do with gravity or the position of her head while it bled. But of course, that's JMHO.

 

[MsJosie]

That's a really good question. I'm so glad you asked, because it forced me to look at something in the AR I hadn't noticed before.

From the AR: "Upon reflection of the scalp there is found to be an extensive area ofscalp hemorrhage along the right temporoparietal area extending from the orbital ridge, posteriorly all the way to the occipital area." (The orbital ridge is the bony ridge below the eyebrow.)
The scalp hemorrhage indicates bleeding under the scalp, rather than on the scalp. Not the same thing we see in a bruise (hematoma) that we get in our skin. Bruising might been visible at some point, I suppose, but I really can't venture a guess.

But, because I re-read this line in the AR - I am now wondering about other issues, including the timing between the head blow and the ligature strangulation... and one more thing...

This is making me think really hard. I might need some time with this, but I'll give you my initial thoughts anyway. It isn't what I have been thinking prior to now. My gut tells me that this is saying that blood from the blow seeped downward - toward the right temporoparietal area from the orbital ridge and posteriorly all the way to the occipital area - which would mean that her head remained upright for some period of time after that blow.

Wow...I hope 'others' saw this too. Great sleuthing. Which means, after she was injured someone was holding/hugging her......or she fell propped up against something.

 

[Sunshine4Me]

Just a thought, piggy backing off the new thoughts- what if Burke and Jonbenet did go downstairs and had pineapple together, but Burke stayed downstairs to play with something else and Jonbenet went back upstairs. When Burke finally went upstairs he found Jonbenet playing his Nintendo64 and that would have angered him and he hit her in the head, that would explain the upright position as she would likely have been sitting upright playing it and have fallen propped against whatever she was sitting on. It is still speculation but I'd buy him hitting her over his game system more than I'd buy him hitting her over pineapple. It could also explain why he wanted to take the Nintendo64 out of the house the next day, although he may have simply wanted to take it with him to play it.

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[HarmonyE.]

Just a thought, piggy backing off the new thoughts- what if Burke and Jonbenet did go downstairs and had pineapple together, but Burke stayed downstairs to play with something else and Jonbenet went back upstairs. When Burke finally went upstairs he found Jonbenet playing his Nintendo64 and that would have angered him and he hit her in the head, that would explain the upright position as she would likely have been sitting upright playing it and have fallen propped against whatever she was sitting on. It is still speculation but I'd buy him hitting her over his game system more than I'd buy him hitting her over pineapple. It could also explain why he wanted to take the Nintendo64 out of the house the next day, although he may have simply wanted to take it with him to play it.

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It's certainly possible, but many other scenarios are possible as well.

It could have been the pineapple, it could have been the game, it could have been an argument about something we'll never know. From everything we've heard about her personality, it sounds as though JBR was a feisty kid, a spitfire who spoke her mind. If Burke resented her as much as many BDIs suspect he did, she could have simply teased him about something that was a hot button for him which set off an unplanned - or maybe previously fantasized - strike against her.

The only thing I'm comfortable assuming is that the kids were together on the main floor and possibly the basement sometime after their parents left for the third floor. At those ages, my siblings and I probably would have found the allure of the new Christmas toys compelling as well, but we did not live in a rambling mansion and couldn't have pulled it off as well as the Ramsey's kids probably figured they could. It must have been pretty easy to pull off all sorts of shenanigans in that house when P and J were in their third floor retreat.

I just wish we knew more about Burke's prior behavioral issues. We'll not likely ever see the records, but their are plenty of people out there - parents of friends and teachers certainly - who could tell us more. Just a guess though - They're afraid of being sued.

 

[kanzz]

(bbm)Hi, Kanzz. That quoted line from the AR is Meyer describing what he first saw when he cut and peeled back (reflected) her scalp. He also described it as being approximately 7" x 4". If you compare the location of this area of hemorrhage to the linear fracture, I think you'll see that they are related. I believe the blood is coming from the broken bridging blood vessels underneath the skull which were sheared by the sudden "opening up" of the fracture. Once broken, they bled through the open fracture to the outside of the skull under the periosteum (the membrane of connective tissue between the scalp and the skull). That layer of blood filled an area along the linear fracture about two inches on either side of it. I don't really think any of it had anything to do with gravity or the position of her head while it bled. But of course, that's JMHO.

Thanks, otg. So maybe the hemorrhage wasn't as far down as I thought. I'd rather believe that. But. What's throwing me is that it says "along the right temporoparietal area". The periosteum is a thin membrane that fits snugly to the bone.. not really a layer in an of itself so much. And Meyer said was "scalp hemorrhage". IDK. But, as I said, I don't want to be married to this line of thinking.

Reflecting of the scalp: starts behind the right ear goes up to the vortex and then to the left ear. Then the scalp sections go forward and back. For Meyer to see the orbital area, he would have already had the scalp fully reflected down to the level of the eyes in front.

Not the best video, but it's the only one I could find.
WARNING - GRAPHIC VIDEO
https://youtu.be/rV2INCDDSg4

 

[TeaTime]

I am re-reading Steve Thomas's book. There is a lot of argument to be had that Patsy acted alone. That was the consensus of the dozens of investigators and experts from every field with the sole exception of Lou. Even the pastor questioning their behavior.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

I am re-reading Steve Thomas's book. There is a lot of argument to be had that Patsy acted alone. That was the consensus of the dozens of investigators and experts from every field with the sole exception of Lou. Even the pastor questioning their behavior.

Yeah, everyone at the time thought Patsy was the perp and Patsy would be indicted, Patsy included. The evidence shows that she's neck-deep in whatever happened, that's why I can't rule her out even though in a lot of ways the BDI theory ties up a lot of loose ends. I can buy her covering for Burke or herself. I can't buy her covering for John simply because if JDI he wouldn't be stupid enough to let the Drama Queen get involved and muck everything up. I can see John covering for both of them. Ergo, I think some version of PDI and/or BDI must have happened with some degree of cooperation with John.


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[HarmonyE.]

While I applaud Steve Thomas for being brave and writing that book, he had blinders on. He dismissed Burke without any consideration due to his age - despite the fact that kids his age have been known to kill smaller kids - and was fixated on Patsy because she clearly wrote that insane drama queen note. I just think those blinders prevented him from connecting all the dots.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I can buy her covering for Burke or herself. I can't buy her covering for John simply because if JDI he wouldn't be stupid enough to let the Drama Queen get involved and muck everything up. I can see John covering for both of them. Ergo, I think some version of PDI and/or BDI must have happened with some degree of cooperation with John.

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I never sensed any great love or romantic feelings between J and P. I know we don't really know what goes on behind closed doors, but just way they related to each other before the body was found is not normal. And he hardly if ever comforted her when she broke down during interviews.

Patsy would never have covered for John if she found out he'd killed her precious mini-me-to-be.

John would never have covered for Patsy if she'd been responsible for the death of his second daughter. He probably would have wanted her in a mental institution and away from his son.

But would Patsy and John jointly agree to cover for their son and Patsy's only remaining child? That's perfectly plausible.

 

[k-mac]

While I applaud Steve Thomas for being brave and writing that book, he had blinders on. He dismissed Burke without any consideration due to his age - despite the fact that kids his age have been known to kill smaller kids - and was fixated on Patsy because she clearly wrote that insane drama queen note. I just think those blinders prevented him from connecting all the dots.

thomas and kolar are the good guys in all of this mess.
so hard to know that one is right and one is wrong. although they both close!
pulls at my heart strings!:loveyou:
on this point, kolar had access to everyone and everything, worked for both sides including he would know inside out thomas 's reasoning. for this, sways me to kolars knowledge.
one of them is right that we know for sure!:drumroll:

 

[icedtea4me]

thomas and kolar are the good guys in all of this mess.
so hard to know that one is right and one is wrong. although they both close!
pulls at my heart strings!:loveyou:
on this point, kolar had access to everyone and everything, worked for both sides including he would know inside out thomas 's reasoning. for this, sways me to kolars knowledge.
one of them is right that we know for sure!:drumroll:

(BBM) Really? There is the possibility that both could be wrong with their theories.

 

[kanzz]

thomas and kolar are the good guys in all of this mess.
so hard to know that one is right and one is wrong. although they both close!
pulls at my heart strings!:loveyou:
on this point, kolar had access to everyone and everything, worked for both sides including he would know inside out thomas 's reasoning. for this, sways me to kolars knowledge.
one of them is right that we know for sure!:drumroll:

Kolar had the added benefit of being on this case nearly 10 years later - when more info was known, less chasing of that info was necessary, a more serious review of case files could be completed, and emotions were not running quite as high. This allowed for what I see as the more cerebral person to do more analytical work on this case.

 

[TeaTime]

Of course Thomas had the benefit of actually seeing PR in person and being in the middle of the brain trust of the detectives, DAs and experts. Not one of the many experts could rule PR out as the writer of the RN although they ruled out I think about 100 other exemplars.

PR's behavior, her strange "I didn't kill my baby" outburst which was made at a time when no one had suggested that she did. Her playing with detectives, the roadblocks she hid behind, her fibers in the cording and paint tray and her paintbrush as part of the murder weapon all pointed to her being the killer.

What Thomas didn't have was the 4 pages released from the GJ indictment. When he resigned from BPD, the GJ secrets were still secret and he thought the GJ simply refused to indict. It was devastating to him.

 

[debbiegarcia36]

Of course Thomas had the benefit of actually seeing PR in person and being in the middle of the brain trust of the detectives, DAs and experts. Not one of the many experts could rule PR out as the writer of the RN although they ruled out I think about 100 other exemplars.

PR's behavior, her strange "I didn't kill my baby" outburst which was made at a time when no one had suggested that she did. Her playing with detectives, the roadblocks she hid behind, her fibers in the cording and paint tray and her paintbrush as part of the murder weapon all pointed to her being the killer.

What Thomas didn't have was the 4 pages released from the GJ indictment. When he resigned from BPD, the GJ secrets were still secret and he thought the GJ simply refused to indict. It was devastating to him.

It's most likely both. The skill, hard work and talent can't be ignored or dismissed IMO. It's the most probable scenarios out there.

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[UKGuy]

Of course Thomas had the benefit of actually seeing PR in person and being in the middle of the brain trust of the detectives, DAs and experts. Not one of the many experts could rule PR out as the writer of the RN although they ruled out I think about 100 other exemplars.

PR's behavior, her strange "I didn't kill my baby" outburst which was made at a time when no one had suggested that she did. Her playing with detectives, the roadblocks she hid behind, her fibers in the cording and paint tray and her paintbrush as part of the murder weapon all pointed to her being the killer.

What Thomas didn't have was the 4 pages released from the GJ indictment. When he resigned from BPD, the GJ secrets were still secret and he thought the GJ simply refused to indict. It was devastating to him.

TeaTime,
Thomas' PDI theory has large holes in it. I've always thought he knew the case was BDI, but like Kolar he could not name BR as a prime suspect, his job description prevents this.

Thomas is likely correct, i.e. PR technically killed JonBenet, by asphyxiating her. PR's fibers are all over the ligature and under the duct tape, but JR's fibers are on JonBenet's groin and size-12's, so go figure.

If you add in the GJ true bills which do not indict either parent for sexual abuse or homicide charges, these are leveled at a third party, whom the parents are charged with assisting.

There are no prizes for guessing who the third party is. BlueCrab had it worked out years ago and Kolar has arrived at the same conclusion.

I'm with Kolar on this one.

.

 

[Ambitioned]

(BBM) Really? There is the possibility that both could be wrong with their theories.

From the language of the true bills? I doubt it.

 

[Miz Adventure]

TeaTime,
Thomas' PDI theory has large holes in it. I've always thought he knew the case was BDI, but like Kolar he could not name BR as a prime suspect, his job description prevents this.

Thomas is likely correct, i.e. PR technically killed JonBenet, by asphyxiating her. PR's fibers are all over the ligature and under the duct tape, but JR's fibers are on JonBenet's groin and size-12's, so go figure.


.

I think that if ST thought that BR was the culprit - I don't really think that he would have been so graphic in his description of PR getting into such a frenzy of anger before walloping JBR.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if ST hasn't changed his opinion since writing his book though and can now see that the culprit was more likely to have been BR.