Was Burke Involved # 5

[Ambitioned]

When I was little my long hair would wrap around my neck because I would toss and turn so much. So my mom would braid it. A tight ponytail on the back of the head was hard to sleep on. I'd say the vast majority of little girls who wear a ponytail during the day will have it limp and messy, falling apart by bedtime. JMO.

I found these questions where PR was sort of asked:


Did JonBenet normally sleep in addition to her jewelry with any hair ties in her hair.


PR: Usually, uh, a rubberband.


ST: Pulled back into a single ponytail.


PR: Back, ponytail, yeah.

And Smit asked John in '98:


6 LOU SMIT: Did JonBenet have hair


7 ties in her hair?


8 JOHN RAMSEY: She -- she did from


9 time to time, yeah. (INAUDIBLE).

Seems to me they want to evade any questions about her hair. The RADAR vid showed hair ties strewn on her floor correct? I think the second ponytail was added by a panicked mom during staging/cleanup? Just a gut feeling but ofc I could be wrong. Too bad neither of the three Ramseys were specifically asked how she wore it all day.

 

[icedtea4me]

IMO, this is how JonBenet would have worn her hair to the Whites' party, although her ponytail would have been a little higher up.

This would have been the ponytail on top of the head, which was fastened with a blue elastic band and a red/black/white cloth hair tie. The red/black/white hair tie would have coordinated with her black and white outfit.

 

[icedtea4me]

Seems to me they want to evade any questions about her hair. The RADAR vid showed hair ties strewn on her floor correct? I think the second ponytail was added by a panicked mom during staging/cleanup? Just a gut feeling but ofc I could be wrong. Too bad neither of the three Ramseys were specifically asked how she wore it all day.

What looks to be hair bands on JonBenet's bedroom floor are actually loops from a weaving loom toy.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*
Patsy then concentrated on her packing and whatever.

Meantime Burke has sneaked into JonBenet's bedroom for some quality time together, except it all went wrong, and Patsy never found out until she rose to go to the airport.

Hang on... So, while Patsy is busy packing in John Andrew's room, she doesn't hear anything between JonBenet and Burke in the next room?

 

[Ambitioned]

So this is the red and black hair tie?

Either way why her hair was in ponytails doesn't really matter that much to me; it's just the fact that it was fixed in that manner. An intruder would have no reason to do such. There's enough evidence that this was "an inside job" (words out of John Ramsey's own mouth). We know who was inside that home that night.

 

[UKGuy]

Hang on... So, while Patsy is busy packing in John Andrew's room, she doesn't hear anything between JonBenet and Burke in the next room?

icedtea4me,

Apparently not. Same applies to IDI, or JDI, given the same timeframe. Your really must accept things happened that conflict with your favorite theory, the staging should inform what the stagers thought they knew, as distinct from what you now know.

 

[Ambitioned]

What looks to be hair bands on JonBenet's bedroom floor are actually loops from a weaving loom toy.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Didn't JB play in the doorway usually though?

I used to have those loom toys and the loops were much smaller. Js.

Seems to be PR is evading again. More fairy tales.

 

[icedtea4me]

Didn't JB play in the doorway usually though?*snip*

I remember reading Patsy's June 1998 BPD interview last night and she said that JonBenet was playing with a jewelry making kit in the doorway of Burke's room while he and his friends were playing Nintendo Christmas afternoon.



http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,

Apparently not.*snip*

So, why do you think Patsy wasn't able to hear what was going on in the next room?

 

[Ambitioned]

Good question. Maybe she snuck off to BR's bedroom?

Can you say PR was in JAR's bedroom the whole time?

PR: I, I think I just had a couple of suitcase, the kids suitcases on the bed there, Burke’s and JonBenet’s.

TT: Okay. So you had Burke’s and JonBenet’s suitcases in John Andrew’s room, your suitcase was upstairs and John’s would have been upstairs too then.

PR: The best that I can remember, yeah.

---

TT: Okay. What did Burke do when you got home then.

PR: Um, I don’t remember exactly, but I think he went to go play with something. I think maybe he and John were fussing with something. A toy he wanted to put together or something.

TT: Okay.

PR: I was trying to finish putting together things for in the morning and. . .

TT: Okay. Finish kind of packing, again the suitcases on the bed. Were they all finished, packed up?

PR: Um, probably pretty close to it.

TT: Okay. And then the close to go to Charlevoix those were. . .

PR: Right.

TT: . . .in a plastic bag.

PR: Plastic bag. Um hum.

TT: And they were already to go? You said you carried down to (inaudible).

PR: Yeah.

This is all assuming PR isn't fibbing and spinning another fairy tale about packing. Sounds to me like she's all over the house. Packing in JAR's room, the plastic bags in the laundry room outside JB's room, and hers and JR's room. That's a lot of area to cover. If you're a harried mom trying to get things ready for the morning trip (without help from JR I might add), would you be listening to the kids with the usual intensity?

 

[Annapurna]

Didn't JB play in the doorway usually though?

I used to have those loom toys and the loops were much smaller. Js.

Seems to be PR is evading again. More fairy tales.

I had a kit like that in the 90s, you used cloth bands to make pot holders and the like. I believe that's what patsy indicated it was, rather than hair ties.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[singularity]

k-mac,
Big halleujah to that. The problem with the PDI fundamentalists is they never explain the evidence they just read the evidence as a PDI script.

.

That's funny......BDI accusing others of not explaining evidence and following a script.

There is no point in berating me for promoting BDI, I'm following the evidence, if it breaks down I'll put my arms up, so far it looks like BDI all the way down, maybe not BDI All, alike Kolar, but whadda ya know?

If you're following the evidence, you're heading to PDI. You admit that the case looks PDI but then start going on fantasy detours that lead you away from that....and then say in the next sentence it looks BDI.

It doesn't compute. It cant look PDI yet look BDI "all the way down".

What links to Patsy is her part in the staging. Does Patsy cover for JR, does she cover for herself? Yet she covers for Burke.

We've been over this. She covers for all of them in the transcripts. I'm not digging up sections of transcripts now. You've read them. You know this to be true.

Patsy and JR patently played a role, but it was mostly that of stagers and deflecting attention away from BR. In this they were quite successful.

Successful indeed. Too successful. There's nothing linking him to murder.

Also interesting how the one person who supposedly benefits from all this(Burke) immediately went against the grain and told LE Jonbenet was awake when she got home and was last seen walking upstairs with Patsy.

Looks to me like Patsy got JonBenet ready for bed, did her ponytails, made her a pineapple snack then put her to bed.


Patsy then concentrated on her packing and whatever.

At least you're now trying to cover the pineapple base. BDI usually ignores her fingerprint on the pineapple bowl since it can equally be linked to Patsy.

Nice, convenient way to get her out of the way quickly too...right before Burke enters stage right.

Meantime Burke has sneaked into JonBenet's bedroom for some quality time together, except it all went wrong, and Patsy never found out until she rose to go to the airport.

Not bad.....except there's literally nothing to even insinuate that's how it played out.

You're also shrinking the timeline to the point there's not enough sand in the hourglass for anything to transpire. You're giving them two hours max(likely less) to discover their daughter's body, a natural reaction of shock and rage, and after sitting on the situation for god knows how long and coming up with a plan, they get the show on the road that consists of layers of staging, including coming up with that bizarre ransom note, before making the 911 call. Then the cherry on top of this scenario is you have them not even speaking a word to their son who has just murdered their daughter. They roll the dice and hope it was Burke and they're not staging a murder for the benefit of an intruder.



If anything, the timeline needs a slight increase...not a decrease.

Your really must accept things happened that conflict with your favorite theory,

Now there's some irony.... :happydance:

Hang on... So, while Patsy is busy packing in John Andrew's room, she doesn't hear anything between JonBenet and Burke in the next room?

Not in the world of BDI. To jump over that obstacle, they just immediately imagine John and Patsy sleeping with sugar plums dancing in their heads and they know nothing until they wake up in the morning....and even though they apparently don't speak to Burke, they know he did it and get to work!

Interesting how when BDI attempts to simplify it, it gets even more outlandish.

 

[BoldBear]

So, why do you think Patsy wasn't able to hear what was going on in the next room?

You have a timeline as to when JB's floor became cluttered? I assume the house was clean for the party on the 23rd. So we have the 24th and the 25th for that clutter to get there.

Some people say how messy JB's room was. I don't see that. I see clutter and we all know LHP always ran around the house to pick-up after the kids.

Linda was going to be there to pick-up the check. Since she missed cleaning the house on the 24th, I assume she might do some cleaning when the Ramsey's were out of town. Patsy may have expected it.

 

[icedtea4me]

You're also shrinking the timeline to the point there's not enough sand in the hourglass for anything to transpire. You're giving them two hours max(likely less) to discover their daughter's body, a natural reaction of shock and rage, and after sitting on the situation for god knows how long and coming up with a plan, they get the show on the road that consists of layers of staging, including coming up with that bizarre ransom note, before making the 911 call. Then the cherry on top of this scenario is you have them not even speaking a word to their son who has just murdered their daughter. They roll the dice and hope it was Burke and they're not staging a murder for the benefit of an intruder.

According to UKGuy, "Patsy never found out until she rose to go to the airport".

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. I awakened
19 that morning, probably somewhere between 5:30
20 and 6. We are going to take off for the airport
21 just at 7, we were going to the lake house. I
22 got up and walked over here to my bathroom right
23 in here.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: I am sorry, I missed
25 what you said, what time you said.
0009
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometime
2 between 5:30 and 6 a.m.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

So, let's say Patsy woke up at 5:31 a.m. She told the detectives she spent 20-30 minutes in the bathroom.

0021
1 TOM HANEY: Okay. And how long do
2 you think all that in the bathroom took?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, 20, 30 minutes.

So, let's go with 20 minutes. Now the time is 5:51 a.m. That leaves Patsy one minute to find out what happened and compose a three page note before calling 911 at 5:52 a.m.

 

[Ambitioned]

That's why I don't believe she ever went to bed. Something happened and the harried mom was up all night. Their bed looks too neat, IMO.

 

[UKGuy]

That's funny......BDI accusing others of not explaining evidence and following a script.

If you're following the evidence, you're heading to PDI. You admit that the case looks PDI but then start going on fantasy detours that lead you away from that....and then say in the next sentence it looks BDI.

It doesn't compute. It cant look PDI yet look BDI "all the way down".


We've been over this. She covers for all of them in the transcripts. I'm not digging up sections of transcripts now. You've read them. You know this to be true.

Successful indeed. Too successful. There's nothing linking him to murder.

Also interesting how the one person who supposedly benefits from all this(Burke) immediately went against the grain and told LE Jonbenet was awake when she got home and was last seen walking upstairs with Patsy.

At least you're now trying to cover the pineapple base. BDI usually ignores her fingerprint on the pineapple bowl since it can equally be linked to Patsy.

Nice, convenient way to get her out of the way quickly too...right before Burke enters stage right.


Not bad.....except there's literally nothing to even insinuate that's how it played out.

You're also shrinking the timeline to the point there's not enough sand in the hourglass for anything to transpire. You're giving them two hours max(likely less) to discover their daughter's body, a natural reaction of shock and rage, and after sitting on the situation for god knows how long and coming up with a plan, they get the show on the road that consists of layers of staging, including coming up with that bizarre ransom note, before making the 911 call. Then the cherry on top of this scenario is you have them not even speaking a word to their son who has just murdered their daughter. They roll the dice and hope it was Burke and they're not staging a murder for the benefit of an intruder.



If anything, the timeline needs a slight increase...not a decrease.


Now there's some irony.... :happydance:

Not in the world of BDI. To jump over that obstacle, they just immediately imagine John and Patsy sleeping with sugar plums dancing in their heads and they know nothing until they wake up in the morning....and even though they apparently don't speak to Burke, they know he did it and get to work!

Interesting how when BDI attempts to simplify it, it gets even more outlandish.

singularity,

Interesting how when BDI attempts to simplify it, it gets even more outlandish.

Nice parody, but your take on proving your case fails dismally. You are simply outlining why the case cannot be PDI, especially to other members.

The case is BDI all the way down, even the media have picked up on it. After BR's cameo TV appearance he more or less said Guilty As Charged, with all his smiling and lack of empathy for JonBenet. Another indicator is JR covering for BR over the flashlight. Just like Patsy did with some crime-scene evidence, neat eh?

The staging was so good its led you to PDI, plain and simple, a form of Ramsey False Consciousness.

You do not deliver a knockout blow to BDI, you do not explain away the holes in PDI, you simply gloss over them, that's the problem with PDI and why its wrong!

.

 

[icedtea4me]

You have a timeline as to when JB's floor became cluttered? I assume the house was clean for the party on the 23rd. So we have the 24th and the 25th for that clutter to get there.

Some people say how messy JB's room was. I don't see that. I see clutter and we all know LHP always ran around the house to pick-up after the kids.

Linda was going to be there to pick-up the check. Since she missed cleaning the house on the 24th, I assume she might do some cleaning when the Ramsey's were out of town. Patsy may have expected it.

Linda worked on Mon, Wed, and Fri. 24 Dec 1996 was on a Tues. Her next scheduled work day would have been Fri 27 Dec.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm

 

[Ambitioned]

After BR's cameo TV appearance he more or less said Guilty As Charged, with all his smiling and lack of empathy for JonBenet.

.

Bingo!! People are trying to rationalize about a normal BR and a normal PR. Problem is, they were anything but. I have stated before they were a petri dish of psychological disorders.

With BR grinning like a Cheshire cat gleefully talking about her small coffin, droopy eye as if he was describing a movie, we can only imagine what troubles happened in the home prior to her death, with PR covering it up or glossing over it. She already tried to explain away the golf club swing.

Judith Phillips at one point stated, "I walked up to Burke and stretched out my arms to signal a hug, which I usually did with him. Normally he would hug me back, but this time, he stepped back and yelled at me, "Leave me alone, don't touch me!" I backed up and felt terrified."

To me this is very telling. People can try to normalize him all they want. "Oh he was just going through a phase..." He was not normal, IMO!

 

[UKGuy]

Bingo!! People are trying to rationalize about a normal BR and a normal PR. Problem is, they were anything but. I have stated before they were a petri dish of psychological disorders.

With BR grinning like a Cheshire cat gleefully talking about her small coffin, droopy eye as if he was describing a movie, we can only imagine what troubles happened in the home prior to her death, with PR covering it up or glossing over it. She already tried to explain away the golf club swing.

Judith Phillips at one point stated, "I walked up to Burke and stretched out my arms to signal a hug, which I usually did with him. Normally he would hug me back, but this time, he stepped back and yelled at me, "Leave me alone, don't touch me!" I backed up and felt terrified."

To me this is very telling. People can try to normalize him all they want. "Oh he was just going through a phase..." He was not normal, IMO!

Ambitioned,
Yes, looks like your perception is correct, people, including the Ramsey family would wish otherwise, including all the PDI theorists fed on a diet of Patsy gone wrong.

Whereas its really BR gone wrong with JonBenet paying the price?

.

 

[TeaTime]

The hair ties: Nothing burger. It doesn't matter one iota who put them in her hair or when. It reveals nothing. Knowing the ID of the hairdresser that night doesn't progress any theory based on evidence.

PR was all over that house, packing for herself and at least 2 others for 2 vacations that could not have been more different; a Disney cruise out of Florida; and a winter second Christmas at the lake house. She was dying her hair Christmas day and still wrapping gifts and packing that night, after a dinner party. A whirlwind surrounded her life at all times that night was no different. I think she came upon the scene during her twirling around, put the fear of God into the perp and sank down to think. This is her invention. She told JR just minutes before calling 911, showed him the scene and laid down the law to him. Then she dialed the phone.

I have always found it hard to believe that PR struck her child in the head with an object hard enough to kill her - even if the kid peed in the bed all the time. And JR didn't do this either. That is not who they are/were. Period. They may have a few character flaws that we do not, in hindsight, find all that appealing, but neither one of them cracked her skull. It just didn't happen, IMHO. Unless she was smoking crack that night, this idea is out of the realm of possibility for me as there was no indication that PR would ever be able to do such a thing to her precious child whom she adored.

I never bought the bed wetting or soiling rage theory as being the spark that set this house aflame. I never bought the idea of a 'fight' with PR and JBR as being anything other than a little kid being bratty and eventually getting what she wanted - to wear the sequined GAP top. I never bought that the cord was a sex device, that is too far in the realm of speculation. I never bought that PR was jealous of her child. It never made sense.

BDI is the missing piece of the puzzle. JMHO