Was Burke Involved # 5

[icedtea4me]

*snip*Whereas its really BR gone wrong with JonBenet paying the price?

IMO, if you were so certain about this, you wouldn't have ended it with a question mark.

 

[Ambitioned]

I see the question marks as a "You feel me?" or "See where I'm coming from?"

Teatime,

PR was all over that house, packing for herself and at least 2 others for 2 vacations that could not have been more different; a Disney cruise out of Florida; and a winter second Christmas at the lake house.

Yup, I can imagine her rushing all over.

but neither one of them cracked her skull. It just didn't happen, IMHO

Agreed. I feel like if she was going to strike or hurt JB over bedwetting, it'd have happened sooner.

BDI is the missing piece of the puzzle. JMHO

Agreed again. Seems the more we know and the more time passes, all roads lead back to BR.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*
I have always found it hard to believe that PR struck her child in the head with an object hard enough to kill her - even if the kid peed in the bed all the time. And JR didn't do this either. That is not who they are/were. Period. They may have a few character flaws that we do not, in hindsight, find all that appealing, but neither one of them cracked her skull. It just didn't happen, IMHO. Unless she was smoking crack that night, this idea is out of the realm of possibility for me as there was no indication that PR would ever be able to do such a thing to her precious child whom she adored.

1. In the "You Need Christmas More Than Anyone" chapter in DoI, Patsy stated (paraphrased) she was in the laundry room on Christmas Eve night getting the My Twinn doll. She said she took the lid off the box and was momentarily shocked because the doll with its eyes closed looked like JonBenet lying in a coffin.

What do you think about this? (BTW, the eyes of My Twinn dolls do not close.)

2. This is the 1996 Christmas letter Patsy wrote: http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1996xmasnewsletter.txt

What phrase foretells what would happen to JonBenet on Christmas?

I never bought the bed wetting or soiling rage theory as being the spark that set this house aflame.

I agree that bedwetting wouldn't trigger rage in a woman whose organs which defined her as a woman were destroyed by stage 4 ovarian cancer.

*snip* I never bought that PR was jealous of her child. It never made sense.*snip*

You don't think that Patsy might have envious of something JonBenet had, but she [Patsy] didn't?

 

[BoldBear]

[smip]

Judith Phillips at one point stated, "I walked up to Burke and stretched out my arms to signal a hug, which I usually did with him. Normally he would hug me back, but this time, he stepped back and yelled at me, "Leave me alone, don't touch me!" I backed up and felt terrified."

[snip]

When I was a child I did that myself. I can't say that the person I said it to was terrified, but I remember wriggling out of a hug, shouting, "Don't touch me," and feeling horrible that I hadn't controlled my outburst.

Of course, you need to take this quote in context. It is credited to Judith Phillips from a discussion board. She didn't see Burke much during 2 years before JB's death. If he was being quoted, "Don't touch me," before JB died, that would have more weight. This was after his sister was murdered in his family's home after what should have been a safe Christmas night. Please don't strip away the context of the quote. It does make a difference.

I suspect I'll get sniped for this objection, but I don't care.

 

[k-mac]

any other night of the week and i'll buy the sexual abuse theory be it BDI or JDI.
but its not any random boring run of the mill day.

ITS CHRISTMAS!!!
the most hectic frenzied day . this family was exhausted and wired. all self absorbed in their own little bubble with much to think about.
the idea of an incestuous agenda against JBR that night with PR flapping around simply doesnt fly with me.
the last thing an abuser wants is to get caught.

now a tired,frazzled, unhinged over committed mother is a very dangerous weapon. you don't need much provococation to loose it. including having to clean up a child that you believe should be a little lady by now.
its bed time that is the elephant in the room. something happened at bed time. and PR was awake no question.
another unhinged batshit crazy connection happened that night.....a staged crime scene.

 

[TeaTime]

1. In the "You Need Christmas More Than Anyone" chapter in DoI, Patsy stated (paraphrased) she was in the laundry room on Christmas Eve night getting the My Twinn doll. She said she took the lid off the box and was momentarily shocked because the doll with its eyes closed looked like JonBenet lying in a coffin.

What do you think about this? (BTW, the eyes of My Twinn dolls do not close.)

2. This is the 1996 Christmas letter Patsy wrote: http://blabbieville.tripod.com/1996xmasnewsletter.txt

What phrase foretells what would happen to JonBenet on Christmas?



I agree that bedwetting wouldn't trigger rage in a woman whose organs which defined her as a woman were destroyed by stage 4 ovarian cancer.


You don't think that Patsy might have envious of something JonBenet had, but she [Patsy] didn't?

I don't think anything of the 'coffin' reference when looking at the doll in a box other than a dramatic fantasy made up by PR years after her daughter was murdered.

Nothing in the Christmas letter foretells anything sinister.

If you are trying to imply that PR may have been jealous of JBR because the child still had her ovaries, stop. If this is not what you were trying to imply, then please explain it more because I don't understand your point.

 

[icedtea4me]

I don't think anything of the 'coffin' reference when looking at the doll in a box other than a dramatic fantasy made up by PR years after her daughter was murdered.

In his book Who Will Speak for JonBenet, Dr Hodges states that (paraphrased) Patsy seeing the My Twinn doll in the box as JonBenet in a coffin is a subconscious wish for JonBenet to be dead, but the wish is disguised as a fear to make the wish more palatable (p 226).

Nothing in the Christmas letter foretells anything sinister.*snip*

outrageous [rage] birthday [Christmas] bash [JonBenet's skull was bashed]

 

[Blunomore]

Is this theory unrealistic:
JR sexually abused JonBenet over a period, including on the night of her murder.
BR was aware of the abuse going on but sworn to silence / threatened by JR. This knowledge upset BR and made him act out, e.g. the smearing of faeces.
PR also knew of it but due to her illness she allowed it because she could not have a normal relationship with her husband.
JR accidentally kills JB and PR, not wanting to lose her family, agrees to help him cover it up.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip* Your really must accept things happened that conflict with your favorite theory, the staging should inform what the stagers thought they knew, as distinct from what you now know.

Yet, you seem to be incapable of stating how these things conflict with my favorite theory. How sad.

 

[UKGuy]

Yet, you seem to be incapable of stating how these things conflict with my favorite theory. How sad.

icedtea4me,
As usual, no analysis, just elliptical remarks. Indeed how sad.

The case is BDI all the way down, it's not turtles but it looks similar.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Is this theory unrealistic:
JR sexually abused JonBenet over a period, including on the night of her murder.
BR was aware of the abuse going on but sworn to silence / threatened by JR. This knowledge upset BR and made him act out, e.g. the smearing of faeces.
PR also knew of it but due to her illness she allowed it because she could not have a normal relationship with her husband.
JR accidentally kills JB and PR, not wanting to lose her family, agrees to help him cover it up.

Blunomore,
You could be right. Just about any RDI theory can fly, particularly PDI, until you dig down into the detail and stuff like the size-12's, hair ties, pineapple snacks, long johns make an appearance, then its all bets are off.

.

 

[TeaTime]

Is this theory unrealistic:
JR sexually abused JonBenet over a period, including on the night of her murder.
BR was aware of the abuse going on but sworn to silence / threatened by JR. This knowledge upset BR and made him act out, e.g. the smearing of faeces.
PR also knew of it but due to her illness she allowed it because she could not have a normal relationship with her husband.
JR accidentally kills JB and PR, not wanting to lose her family, agrees to help him cover it up.

It has been debated.

 

[TeaTime]

In his book Who Will Speak for JonBenet, Dr Hodges states that (paraphrased) Patsy seeing the My Twinn doll in the box as JonBenet in a coffin is a subconscious wish for JonBenet to be dead, but the wish is disguised as a fear to make the wish more palatable (p 226).



outrageous [rage] birthday [Christmas] bash [JonBenet's skull was bashed]

I think that is S T R E T C H I N G C R E D U L I T Y but it is your prerogative to look for 'hints' of what was to come from PR's dramatic story written years after the fact and her brag fest Christmas letter. I choose to look at the more probable cause of the child's murder and I think is was B. Just from what I have picked up in the 21 years of keeping up, it is my opinion.

His print on the pineapple bowl.
His boot print on the WC floor.
His DNA on the nightie by the body.
His pants in JBR's BR.
JBR wearing his pants when found dead.
He was downstairs, alone, after he thought everyone was asleep.
His gifts were in the WC.
He liked to play in the basement.
He was awake for the 911 call.
He pretended to be asleep when LE arrived.
The only question he had for LE after they questioned him about his missing sister was'is that a real Rolex?"
He smiled through her funeral.
He smiled and giggled through the DP interview.
He acted out the bashing in of JBR's skull in the psychologist's interview.
He admitted to partially opening the wrapped gifts in the WC.
His first thought when he heard JBR was missing was 'well, I guess we won't be going to the lake house" or something very similar.
Within days of the murder, he felt 'safe' and was getting on with his life.
At age 30, his memories are of a funny droopy eye, THE hair seemed longer than he remembered, flaunting, fighting over elevator buttons and 'unless someone erased my brain", doesn't remember or know anything at all about what happened and never talked to his parents about it.

PR and JR fell into deep despair after JBR's death. You can see it in all their photos that they never recovered. Who could? While meeting with LE for fingerprinting, PR and JR were shells of their former selves. BR was smiling. LE thought it odd at the time.

I think it is odd now that I know about it. Don't you?

If looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. I think B is the duck here because it makes the most sense of all the evidence.

I do not believe that either of the parents bashed her skull. That is not who they are. No matter how stressed they would ever get, they would not strike their own children with enough force to kill them. These are not the kind of people prone to lose control of themselves. Their history is of high intelligence which prompted them to reach for high achievements and great successes which all takes a great deal of self-control, sacrifice and hard work. They didn't luck into that lifestyle; they worked for it. They had already tragically lost Beth, and PR survived cancer. If you have gone through events like this, you don't go around losing your mind over small stuff because you know how precious every minute of life is and how quickly it can be over without warning. They may not be likable in hindsight, but I don't see them erupting onto their kids, neither one of them. JMHO

 

[Ambitioned]

You can see it in all their photos that they never recovered. Who could? While meeting with LE for fingerprinting, PR and JR were shells of their former selves. BR was smiling. LE thought it odd at the time.

Ah yes the grinning at funerals! Both JB's and PR's funerals.

Susan Stine said that her son, DS talked with BR on Dec. 28 and BR talked about "manual strangulation" possibly being involved in JB's death. BR's tone was very impersonal, casual, matter-of-fact type, which seems odd considering this was his sister who died 2 days ago. Personally I would be too traumatized to talk about strangulation or any other methods.

This cavalier attitude, lack of remorse, and grinning really bugs me. Makes me wanna slap the smile off his face.

Excellent list! There's also the knife motions and the "Ohhhhhh" when being questioned about the bowl.

Also when asked to draw a picture, JB was left out.

I've seen many parents who lost a child to a real killer or abductor. Siblings were not let out of their sight. Yet the R's wanted BR out of the house ASAP. Huge red flag for me anyway. Having him out of the house fit in nicely with their plans of continuing the cover up.

Last but not least, ST asked JAR to write down some thoughts. In one comment, he described his stepmother as "flashy" and guessed that the killer might be someone close to her. Boy did JAR guess correctly, IMO.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
As usual, no analysis, just elliptical remarks. Indeed how sad.

The case is BDI all the way down, it's not turtles but it looks similar.


.

And once again you're still incapable of stating how these things conflict with my favorite theory.

 

[icedtea4me]

Ah yes the grinning at funerals! Both JB's and PR's funerals.

That's a lie. That's a pic of Burke at the memorial service for JonBenet, not funeral.

 

[drmstwizard]

Apologies if this has been discussed to death -- I'm obviously super new to the forum and there's SO much to backread, so my search results didn't help much -- how much has been discussed/are there specifically helpful backreading links into looking at BR's behavior(s) as the result of his own molestation by JR? A lot of the CBS documentary and other floated theories make me think that BR's continual lashing out at JBR fits alongside with his scatological issues is more indicative that BR was being molested by JR (or a family friend at the '96 party?) than JBR. But again, I'm SURE this has been discussed 10000x and if I'm just rehashing, I'm sorry!

 

[BoldBear]

Ah yes the grinning at funerals! Both JB's and PR's funerals.

Susan Stine said that her son, DS talked with BR on Dec. 28 and BR talked about "manual strangulation" possibly being involved in JB's death. BR's tone was very impersonal, casual, matter-of-fact type, which seems odd considering this was his sister who died 2 days ago. Personally I would be too traumatized to talk about strangulation or any other methods.

This cavalier attitude, lack of remorse, and grinning really bugs me. Makes me wanna slap the smile off his face.

Excellent list! There's also the knife motions and the "Ohhhhhh" when being questioned about the bowl.

Also when asked to draw a picture, JB was left out.

I've seen many parents who lost a child to a real killer or abductor. Siblings were not let out of their sight. Yet the R's wanted BR out of the house ASAP. Huge red flag for me anyway. Having him out of the house fit in nicely with their plans of continuing the cover up.

Last but not least, ST asked JAR to write down some thoughts. In one comment, he described his stepmother as "flashy" and guessed that the killer might be someone close to her. Boy did JAR guess correctly, IMO.

That smile could easily be a defensive mechanism. His parents were falling apart but we didn't see that. We also haven't received reports of how Burke mourned for JB because the family was doing everything they could to keep the grieving process private. I fell apart at my father's viewing and funeral, but I also smiled a lot too. It was good to see the friends and family members at the funeral. I also smiled when I was hurting inside. One of my defensive mechanisms is to smile and sometimes make jokes when I'm stressed. It doesn't mean that I care any less.

I remember when Rush Limbaugh had a TV show and Bill Clinton attended a funeral service for a foreign dignitary. Rush made a big deal because Bill had been caught on camera a few times with a simile on his face. Somehow it's a crime to smile at a funeral--you'll have to explain that to me because my experience has been that I do some crying, some laughing, and some smiling at a funeral.

Burke was 9 years old at the time. I personally don't know how a 9 year old is supposed to behave at a funeral. Burke's father doesn't show grief in public and neither does Burke. I honestly believe that Burke's smile is him trying to show strength to his parents. After that, he goes home and buries himself in a gaming console because he doesn't want to deal with what's going on around him.

No matter how much you might want it, we don't have the right to these private parts of Burke's life unless he chooses to share it. That doesn't belong to us and we weren't there in the home when Burke was going though the grieving process.

 

[Ambitioned]

That's a lie. That's a pic of Burke at the memorial service for JonBenet, not funeral.

My bad.

Ah yes the grinning at funerals! PR's funeral and memorial service for JB*

That better?

Boldbear,

Sure we all grieve differently. However taking all the pictures into context his smiling is still off IMO. I've attended many funerals (probably close to a hundred) and I don't recall anyone grinning and smiling.

As for Clinton, I don't listen to Rush and I didn't see the pictures, so I wouldn't know. In this case, you may think the smiling and grinning when losing a sister and mother is normal. I don't. We agree to disagree.

 

[UKGuy]

My bad.

Ah yes the grinning at funerals! PR's funeral and memorial service for JB*

That better?

Boldbear,

Sure we all grieve differently. However taking all the pictures into context his smiling is still off IMO. I've attended many funerals (probably close to a hundred) and I don't recall anyone grinning and smiling.

As for Clinton, I don't listen to Rush and I didn't see the pictures, so I wouldn't know. In this case, you may think the smiling and grinning when losing a sister and mother is normal. I don't. We agree to disagree.

Ambitioned,
That's Burke trying to act normal, big cheesy smiles, false show of confidence, etc. As a child he does not realize how his behavior will be interpreted.

All he knows is I Got Away With It

.