Was Burke Involved # 5

[UKGuy]

the m1 charges weren't redacted because its BDI???????

nobody knows what the 7 other charges each were.
doesnt take a genius to figure out in a murder case it has to be in the mix somewhere.

the two charges released were done so because they were the only two each signed off by the GJ foreman. nothing more nothing less.
the judge decided the information could be released because it doesn't compromise the murder investigation specifically. imo

I'd give me husbands lefty to see the unsigned bills !!!!!:laughing:

k-mac,
Your bolded sentence is correct. There are unsigned bills kicking around. I'll bet they turn up in a Ramsey documentary expose in the years ahead?

I reckon if the person referred to in the released True Bills were JR or PR then they could so be named. They were already down for Child Abuse and Assisting an Offender.

JDI would have two counts, i.e. Muder in the First Degree and Child Abuse.

PDI would have two counts, i.e. Muder in the First Degree and Child Abuse.

BDI would have two counts, i.e. Muder in the First Degree and Child Abuse.

If each of the parents Counts stood as released then that would be two each, i.e. Four, have I got that right?

Four plus Two makes Six. Yet if the case were PDI or JDI then Two Counts would be redundant?

So that's us down to four Counts yet seven were stated. I guess I've got something wrong?

.

 

[UKGuy]

The term "reasonable" is what is paramount here. Is it reasonable to believe that an intruder entered the home, took the child from her bed, bashed her in the head, sexually molested her - a little bit - to cover past sexual abuse and then strangled her and stashed her body in a hidden unused closet in the basement without making a sound and leaving zero forensic evidence of their presence in the home? No.

When faced with the choice of the most reasonable explanation for the death and an explanation that defies logic and physics, choose the former.

JR is not connected in any way to the scene. PR and BR are connected. BR is not culpable by reason of tender years. PR is culpable. A jury could have and would have, IMHO, made the right decision and sent PR to prison as an accomplice to murder.

Let's not forget that the DA threw up roadblocks to evidence at every step, refused requests for phone and medical records and hired an investigator to create reasonable doubt out of imagination. The DA wasn't going to prosecute this case under any circumstances and didn't take it to trial for fear of a conviction, not fear of an acquittal.

Had this been the child of a poor person, they would still be in prison. Fact.

TeaTime,
JR's fibers are on the size-12's and JonBenet's groin? I know its not a smoking gun, but they should not be there.

So you give BR a pass due to his age. How about Patsy staging for Burke Ramsey, this would explain her forensics in the wine-cellar, and all her cover stories for Burke?

.

 

[UKGuy]

The indictment discussion is interesting, but it's important to remember that establishing guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in this case would have been damn near impossible. There was a lack of strong forensic evidence tying the Ramseys to the murder. Some things that would have made a conviction difficult: 1) Fiber evidence is easily disputed and not iron clad. 2) No handwriting expert was willing to testify that Patsy authored the note and the admissibility of handwriting expert testimony is subject to the whims of a judge. 3) No motive. 4) The GJ didn't know who did what and neither would the prosecution, making the case even more difficult.

I'm a RDI generalist and strongly believe that the weight of the circumstantial evidence indicates their involvement, but I know that establishing their guilt 'beyond a reasonable doubt' would be a tough threshold to meet for any legal team.

AndHence,

What might the charging options be beyond:

1. Child Abuse

2. Assisting an Offender

3. Murder in the First Degree

If the parents get 1. and 2. that's four. If the killer gets 1. and 3. that's two.

If there is an overlap between the parents and 3. then 2. is dropped. i.e. it stays at Four Counts.

If there is no overlap between the parents and 3. then that's six Counts, but seven have been cited?

.

 

[icedtea4me]

k-mac,
Your bolded sentence is correct. There are unsigned bills kicking around. I'll bet they turn up in a Ramsey documentary expose in the years ahead?

I reckon if the person referred to in the released True Bills were JR or PR then they could so be named. They were already down for Child Abuse and Assisting an Offender.

JDI would have two counts, i.e. Muder in the First Degree and Child Abuse.

PDI would have two counts, i.e. Muder in the First Degree and Child Abuse.

BDI would have two counts, i.e. Muder in the First Degree and Child Abuse.

If each of the parents Counts stood as released then that would be two each, i.e. Four, have I got that right?

Four plus Two makes Six. Yet if the case were PDI or JDI then Two Counts would be redundant?

So that's us down to four Counts yet seven were stated. I guess I've got something wrong?

.

According to the court order, the documents submitted to the court by Garnett consisted of 18 pages, nine relating to each of JonBenet's parents. Lowenbach ruled that only pages signed by the foreman of the grand jury would be considered "official actions" of the grand jury and would thus be releasable. In the end, a total of four pages -- two pages for each parent -- were released.

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_24381455/jonbenet-ramsey-indictment-released-john-patsy

18 counts total (9 for John and 9 for Patsy)
Two counts (IVa and VII) revealed against John. (9-2= 7 counts remaining for John.)
Two counts (IVa and VII) revealed against Patsy. (9-2= 7 counts remaining for Patsy.)

 

[k-mac]

uk guy
as per icetea4me

14 between not 7?
keep counting!!

 

[questfortrue]

Craig Silverman, a Denver attorney, once shared his views on possible other counts.

“What were the other counts considered? Perhaps they were as follows:

1.First Degree Murder – After Deliberation (F1)
2. First Degree Murder – Felony Murder (during commission of sexual assault on a
child or other crime) (F1)
3. Sexual Assault on a Child
III.(a) Sexual Assault on a Child – Pattern of Conduct
4. Child Abuse Resulting in Death (F1) (child abuse against victim under 12 caused
by person in position of trust), a.k.a. First Degree Murder. 18-3-102(1)(f) and 18-6-
401(7)(c)
IV.(a) Child Abuse Resulting in Death (F2)
((permitted child to be placed in situation that led to her death.)
IV (b) ?
5. Child Abuse (permitting child to be placed in a situation where she is injured
and/or sexually assaulted)
6. Accessory to Crime of Sexual Assault on a Child
7. Accessory to Crime of First Degree Murder and Child Abuse Resulting in
Death (F4)

*True bills returned by grand jury in bold

“Insofar as complicity, it is never the subject of a separate count in Colorado The grand
jury would have been instructed, ‘A person is legally accountable as principal for the
behavior of another constituting a criminal offense if, with the intent to promote or
facilitate the commission of the offense, he or she aids, abets, advises, or encourages the
other person in planning or committing the offense.’”

_______________________

According to past posts from otg and cynic, Colorado is one of a few states whose GJs vote not only for a True Bill, but they also have to have a majority vote for a No True Bill. Judge Lowenbach chose to only release the ones voted on as True Bills and signed by the Foreman, so Silverman was taking a lawyerly stab at what the other counts might have been.

If I’m understanding this correctly, the other counts may not have received enough votes for either “True Bill” or “No True Bill” status per a vote. I’m reasoning that if any of the other counts had received the “No True Bill” majority agreement, then the Foreman would have signed them, and possibly they could have been released by Judge Lowenbach as official GJ actions.

In a Daily Camera article this was a comment from Jerold Israel, a criminal procedure professor at the University of Florida: “And while a vote of no true bill doesn't legally clear a would-be suspect of wrongdoing, it certainly would give that person "ammunition" for any future defense.

"If a grand jury does return a finding of no true bill, Colorado law forbids a second grand-jury investigation into the same crime unless prosecutors can show they have uncovered new evidence."

I know it’s a predominant view from those with some background in the case that the True Bills prove BDI. I agree it does lean towards that theory. However, and it’s JMHO, one might weigh that without a confession the GJ simply may not have been able to prove any more than what was specified in the True Bills:
-There was an asphyxiated child hidden in the basement;
-There was no intruder;
-Someone residing in the home struck or flung her;
-The adults covered up what happened;
- And they were responsible that such violence took place.

 

[TeaTime]

TeaTime,
JR's fibers are on the size-12's and JonBenet's groin? I know its not a smoking gun, but they should not be there.

So you give BR a pass due to his age. How about Patsy staging for Burke Ramsey, this would explain her forensics in the wine-cellar, and all her cover stories for Burke?

.

No one gets a pass. But PR's fibers entwined IN the cording and in the paint tray are impossible to explain except that she handled that cord and paint tray (fibers likely fell while getting the paintbrush) while wearing the jacket she was wearing that night. She is entwined in one of the murder weapons. For this reason a jury could reasonably conclude that she applied the cording which killed JBR. Especially since she claimed to have no knowledge of where that cording came from.

JR's fibers could be from him helping to change JBR's clothes although neither parent seems to remember who did what or what the child was dressed in for bed. It puts his clothing touching the child or brushing against the big panties and transferring to her body but it is reasonably explained away. No jury would conclude he was involved in the murder from this evidence alone.

BR's DNA on the nightgown which allegedly just came out of the dryer and was found near the body can't be explained except that he touched it after it was laundered a day or 2 before the murder. By the looks of the bed, it does not appear that a blanket was removed from under the comforter that night and it is most likely that it was still in the dryer when they got home from the White's party. His DNA at the crime scene on the nightie is not reasonably explained away unless one argues that he folded the laundry all the time. No one claims to have touched that blanket or nightie. DNA doesn't lie.

A jury could reasonably infer from BR's prints on the pineapple, his boot print near the body and his DNA on the nightie near the body that he was involved with the injuries to JBR or even her death.

A jury could reasonably conclude that the only way a mother like PR would strangle her own child is if she thought the child had just been molested and bashed in her head by her brother and that the injuries and exposure of same would be fatal to her family in every way imaginable. OR that she thought the child was already dead and staged it for the reasons above.

This is my opinion.

An unreasonable theory involves a sexual sadist, mystery intruder who left no trace of self behind and did not brutally rape the child as one would expect of a sexual sadist that preys on children. HINT: they don't insert little art brushes into the vagina a little bit.

I completely disregard the 6 different DNA types found on the panties because I refuse to be made to believe that SIX mystery intruders were involved and instead I accept the most reasonable explanation which is that this mystery DNA was from manufacture and processing.

Just My Most Humble Opinion based on everything I know about this case.

 

[Gnat]

Can anyone lead me the way to a clip of the video of Burke being interviewed by a psychologist? Please.

 

[Gnat]

I also have been entertaining the idea that a golf club was involved. Were there still Christmas packages in the WC on the night of the 25th?

 

[Gnat]

Feel free to clue me in on PR's cover stories for BR.

 

[UKGuy]

Feel free to clue me in on PR's cover stories for BR.

Gnat,

Patsy says Burke Ramsey was sound asleep in his bedroom during the 911 call.

Patsy says she dressed JonBenet in Burke Ramsey's long johns after returning from the White's.

Patsy says she gave JonBenet the size-12's she was found dressed in. Burke Ramsey likely redressed her in them.

Patsy says she opened the gifts found Partially Unwrapped in the wine-cellar. Kolar says Burke Ramsey admitted responsibility for opening those gifts on Christmas Day Afternoon.

Then there are the hair ties left on JonBenet's head, how did they get there, if JonBenet was placed sleeping directly to bed?

Because the parents never fixed stuff, they patently are not the instigator, they are the stagers of an Abduction Scenario, JonBenet's assailant was hiding out in his bedroom.

.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*Then there are the hair ties left on JonBenet's head, how did they get there, if JonBenet was placed sleeping directly to bed?*snip*

Are you saying it would have been 100% impossible for those hair ties to have never have been taken out of her hair when they got home that night, yes or no?

 

[UKGuy]

Are you saying it would have been 100% impossible for those hair ties to have never have been taken out of her hair when they got home that night, yes or no?

icedtea4me,
Your question is lost on me. We want to know why they are there, from memory, different colors and asymmetric too.

.

 

[Userid]

^ Because whomever put her to bed simply overlooked them. That's his point. It wouldn't have been completely impossible.

Are you saying they were inserted in her hair (presumably by BR) after she had already been murdered? What would be the point of that?

 

[Gnat]

Snip

Gnat,
Then there are the hair ties left on JonBenet's head, how did they get there, if JonBenet was placed sleeping directly to bed snip
.

Where can I learn more about the significance of these hair ties?

 

[Gnat]

Someone at the White's could of played with JB's hair. Do the White's have a daughter?

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Someone at the White's could of played with JB's hair. Do the White's have a daughter?

Yes, their daughter Daphne was one of JB's best friends.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gnat]

Yes, their daughter Daphne was one of JB's best friends.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That could be where the red heart on JB's hand came from too.

 

[UKGuy]

^ Because whomever put her to bed simply overlooked them. That's his point. It wouldn't have been completely impossible.

Are you saying they were inserted in her hair (presumably by BR) after she had already been murdered? What would be the point of that?

Userid,
Nope, and I do not know the point of that.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Snip

Where can I learn more about the significance of these hair ties?

Gnat,
Read the autopsy report, and use the search function to pull up previous posts on the hair ties, they have been debated over the years.

They are a fly in the ointment for PDI theories, more so for the parents version of events.

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