Was Burke involved?

[MyBelle]

again, research says otherwise:



http://www.outofthefog.net/Relationships/SiblingAbuse.html

[modsnip] No way did a nine-year-old commit this horrific murder, imo.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Where is the evidence to support your claim that "much more likely is some kind of abusive relationship between JonBenet and BR"?



There is absolutely no evidence there was an ongoing abusive relationship between the two children. [modsnip]


There is not a "raft of circumstantial evidence" to support your theory. No evidence her horrific death was accidental.



I'll consider such evidence if and when it ever shows up but right now it seems to be incredibly wild speculation about a nine-year-old who may very well be a victim of the same physical and psychological abuse that killed his sister.



JMO

Just wanted to add that I personally believe he was a victim of the same abuse his sister was as the child of an extreme narcissist.
IMO he was virtually ignored and shoved aside living in the shade of his little sister.
IMO she was the bane of his existence and without her his life was everything he hoped it to be and more. He was the center of everyone's attention. Finally. At last.


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[MyBelle]

There are post after posts, links after links and thread after thread for YEARS here on the subject. A virtual MOUNTAIN of evidence to support any Ramsey of your choosing working together as well as alone. [modsnip]


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Posts aren't evidence. The Ramseys indicted were Patsy and John. Burke was cleared by LE. I can't ignore real facts. Sorry.

 

[Linda7NJ]

[modsnip]

From the link:

A 2005 study estimated that about 1 in 3 children (35%) are abused by a sibling each year and that about 1 in 33 (3%) children suffer "dangerous" violence at the hands of another sibling.

It is also believed that sexual abuse of minors occurs more often at the hands of a sibling or other minor than at the hands of a parent or other adult.


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[Linda7NJ]

Posts aren't evidence. The Ramseys indicted were Patsy and John. Burke was cleared by LE. I can't ignore real facts. Sorry.

If that's what you are considering facts...John and Patsy have been "cleared" as well. [modsnip]


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[Linda7NJ]

[modsnip]


Their children's accounts don't carry any weight?

You don't believe convicted child molesters participate in research? A wealth of information and research has come from polygraphed convicted child molesters, pedophiles and rapists. Yes, more than a few victimized their own children.
A ton more information can be gathered and studied from their victims.

[modsnip]

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[gramcracker]

I haven't asked for links to research studies or stats. I keep asking for links to specific cases where a nine-year-old has committed a similar crime of sexual assault, garroting and head bashing and cleaning it all up.

Kolar did raise red flags but evidently his boss felt it was past the red flag phase. Hopefully the current Boulder police continue to follow up on any leads.

truly not intending to be argumentative here: I do not understand the reasoning behind requesting links to specifically similar crimes. does every crime require a specific matching history for belief in guilt to be valid? there are many nuances in crimes. some crimes are generic and some are unique. I do not think unique crimes should be or are considered less worthy of investigation or prosecution. I have never heard or read about a LEO or DA or defense attorney or reporter or true crime writer stating that a specific matching history is necessary for an investigation or prosecution or defense to go forward

ETA: bickering about statistics (or anything else) will get this thread closed again

 

[Linda7NJ]

Wasn't Kolar "law enforcement"?


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[MyBelle]

Their children's accounts don't carry any weight?

You don't believe convicted child molesters participate in research? A wealth of information and research has come from polygraphed convicted child molesters, pedophiles and rapists. Yes, more than a few victimized their own children.
A ton more information can be gathered and studied from their victims.

Shaking my head....



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The stats are useless and unreliable. I think they are the type of thing a defense attorney for somebody like John Mark Karr might embrace.

I do know that one trait commonly shared by convicted molesters, pedophiles and rapists is that they lie.

JMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

How about a link to back up your thoughts on the subject that all the research is garbage and unreliable.

[modsnip]

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[MyBelle]

truly not intending to be argumentative here: I do not understand the reasoning behind requesting links to specifically similar crimes. does every crime require a specific matching history for belief in guilt to be valid? there are many nuances in crimes. some crimes are generic and some are unique. I do not think unique crimes should be or are considered less worthy of investigation or prosecution. I have never heard or read about a LEO or DA or defense attorney or reporter or true crime writer stating that a specific matching history is necessary for an investigation or prosecution or defense to go forward

ETA: bickering about statistics (or anything else) will get this thread closed again

I think accusations that someone sexually assaulted and murdered is an accusation that needs a factual basis. The speculation about BR is getting pretty wild.

I've seen it repeated on here that this horrific crime is more often committed by siblings than parents therefore it is likely BR murdered his sister. All I asked for is a comparable case and am not surprised none has been linked.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think accusations that someone sexually assaulted and murdered is an accusation that needs a factual basis. The speculation about BR is getting pretty wild.



I've seen it repeated on here that this horrific crime is more often committed by siblings than parents therefore it is likely BR murdered his sister. All I asked for is a comparable case and am not surprised none has been linked.

A comparable case or an exactly the same case?

Young kids that intentionally kill can be found simply googling. The case with the AZ 8 year old double murderer comes to mind. That kid had many many supporters that refused to consider him too. And made excuses for him later.

That a young child could sexually abuse his sister? Countless instances of that. I would think that's common knowledge in 2014.

A child that "accidentally" kills a sibling...I'm sure that wouldn't be too hard to find with google either.

Children that sexually assault others under threat of harm? Again, common. Google.

Adults that attempt to cover up a crime. Happens all the time.

None of the elements of this crime are unique by themselves. It's the number of lies, misdirection and staging that buried the truth. Well that AND the crappy job LE & the DA did.



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[bettybaby00]

If you want to believe parents who are molesting their children are also sharing that information with researchers, that's up to you.


"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Mark Twain, 1906

No they don't report it..... B/c they're perfect

It's victimology that gives us the data!!!!!

BR saw a psych afterward && there were indications even prior to that night he was in therapy.... For what? They are hiding their secrets :banghead:

 

[redheadedgal]

poll aside, i think this thread needs to be turned into a posting thread only for those who want to consider BR's involvment. that way the argumentative/demanding posts are avoided, mods aren't constantly intervening and posters who believe in the theory, can post in peace.

mods?

 

[DeeDee249]

I thought the DA cleared Burke in 2008 because of the DNA evidence? A DA is a political figure so it wouldn't surprise me that she had a bias toward the Ramseys but she did have genuine, DNA evidence that threw it all into a tailspin.

Even if he had not been nine years old at the time, no jury would convict him now because of that DNA evidence no matter how they believe how it got there. What actual evidence ties Burke to the sexual assault or the murder?

In a variety of news articles, cops have been very careful to say they'd like to talk to Burke as a possible witness, not because they consider him a suspect. I don't believe these agencies/task force would be wasting their time, money and resources on continuing an investigation if they already know their main suspect can't be charged because of his age at the time of the murder.

JMO

As you know, even the present DA commented that NO ONE was cleared as far as he was concerned because the killer has not been identified by name. ML could say whatever she wanted, but her "clearing" has no legal significance. ML promised Patsy (a murder suspect) that she would "clear" the family before Patsy died, so she did. But it was just lip service. Truth is that none of the family members could be cleared legally because they were all home when the crime occurred and because the killer was not identified by name.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think it's more than a little frightening the general population has no idea what goes on behind closed doors. How therapists and CPS handles these things, if it's even reported.
Most people have absolutely no idea their child could very well be sitting next to a child murder, rapist, molester in their classroom.
Too many believe if it isn't reported in the news it doesn't happen.

I urge you to talk to people in the family court system. Talk to a social worker. Any specialist in the field will tell you differently.

The reality is more than shocking.


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[Frigga]

I am not Linda but I think there has been some misinterpretation here. What she is saying is that children are molested everyday and siblings are quite often the perps. Not that a 9 year old sibling molesting a sister molests and murders a sibling almost everyday.

Wild speculation... hmmm, that is your opinion and I'm not going to disagree outright. From your posts (and others) I see this is the way you see it, and I can understand.

Would you agree that what happened in that house that night was wild in terms of the crime? I mean according to the FBI- the one and only existing case where a ransom note was left but the child victim was actually never taken but found sexually assaulted and murderd in her home. The murder appears to be brutal- wouldn't you agree? If an intruder wanted JonBenet for sexual purposes he/she could have walked out a door (he/she did do this at some point) but instead went down to a basement with the child shoved an object in the child's vagina, wiped her down, redressed her, bashed her head, strangled or garrotted her, wrapped her up and then left the home- after leaving a very lengthy, personal, and in my mind bizzare ransom note, for a considerably small amount of cash- which was a total lie. Wild- right. All the time someone could have woken up and caught the perp. All of the universe coinciding to allow possibly several hours in the home committing this awful, terrible crime. This is bizarre- wild... wouldn't you agree?

No one has been caught, charged or brought to justice.

We are left to speculate- wildly in your opinion- some of us however understand that anything is possible- that every person in that home that night needs to be looked at and for good reason.

I know two people personally who were sexually molested by their own brother (I just actually realized it is three women I know). I know their stories- their ages and how long the abuse occurred (for two it went on a LONG time). It happens- I know the stories well.

Children can be violent. This too is a fact.

Accidents occur between siblings. This is a fact.

Children are killed accidentally and sometimes intentionally by other children- This is a fact.

Parents have been known to lie to protect their children from being prosecuted for a crime. It isn't only ever about protecting their good name or image, they do it so their child doesnt get taken away or sent to jail or prison.

Someone comitted this crime. That person has gotten away with it. We are exploring all of the possibilities. I have changed my mind over time- I may again- I'm not a juror, this is not a court of law and my conscience is clear. My conclusions are not known facts or absolutes- they are opinions.

So wild speculation (in some opinions) indeed- at this point it is what many of us can do in an effort to get close to the truth.

What happened to a little girl before, during and after her murder is wild, in my book- I have a wild imagination and could never have dreamed this story.

Way back in history- when a certain wild crime was comitted- if it had never been comitted before, does that mean it couldn't happen? If the perp was completely unexpected- does that mean he didn't do it?

I'm probably not explaining myself very well. I just will never understand the idea that someone or something can't happen because of someones age, size or previous history.

 

[redheadedgal]

mark twain: truth is stranger than fiction

 

[Linda7NJ]

mark twain: truth is stranger than fiction

Touché!

That made me laugh out loud.

And never a more truthful statement made about this case in particular! IMO


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[gramcracker]

I know two people personally who were sexually molested by their own brother (I just actually realized it is three women I know). I know their stories- their ages and how long the abuse occurred (for two it went on a LONG time). It happens- I know the stories well.

Parents have been known to lie to protect their children from being prosecuted for a crime. It isn't only ever about protecting their good name or image, they do it so their child doesnt get taken away or sent to jail or prison.

there were just under 100 kids in my high school graduating class

beginning in childhood and continuing until the teen years, three of my classmates were first molested and then raped by their brother(s) and one of the fathers also participated. two of them had only one brother. the third one had three brothers and she was raped and forced to perform oral sex by all of them, and her father. it was a good night for her if oral was all that was required. we were all born in 1950 so that tells you that we grew up in the culture of the the perfect, idyllic 50s. all of the families were "intact" - no divorces, single parents/step-parents. the only mother who worked outside the home was the high school librarian. all of the fathers were successful business owners. the families were solidly middle class. I never managed the courage to ask if their mothers knew about it but the friend who was abused by all of her brothers and her father volunteered that her mother could not have been unaware of what was happening. which is what stopped her from telling anyone, because she instinctively knew that her mother would not back her play if she reported it to a teacher, the school nurse, etc

sadly, this is what I learned on Grad Night, an all-nighter where we shared things that I wished I had known much sooner. they were all leaving home within the next week/month and it seemed to be a done deal so I decided not to tell my mother about it because I was nearly as scared and hopeless about coming forward as the victims were/had been

anyway, long story short: those are some sad statistics. three girls out of maybe 50 (?) in my class, and I have always wondered how many more there were. in my family the abuse was physical, mental and emotional but on Grad Night '68, as bad as my abuse was, I realized I was one of the lucky ones