Was Burke involved?

[MyBelle]

As you know, even the present DA commented that NO ONE was cleared as far as he was concerned because the killer has not been identified by name. ML could say whatever she wanted, but her "clearing" has no legal significance. ML promised Patsy (a murder suspect) that she would "clear" the family before Patsy died, so she did. But it was just lip service. Truth is that none of the family members could be cleared legally because they were all home when the crime occurred and because the killer was not identified by name.

ML was law enforcement. Her "clearing" of the family had legal significance then and now. You certainly don't see the news media speculating about Burke or John now.

DA Lacy did NOT clear the family prior to Patsy's death in 2006.

 

[gramcracker]

wrong thread

 

[Linda7NJ]

there were just under 100 kids in my high school graduating class



beginning in childhood and continuing until the teen years, three of my classmates were first molested and then raped by their brother(s) and one of the fathers also participated. two of them had only one brother. the third one had three brothers and she was raped and forced to perform oral sex by all of them, and her father. it was a good night for her if oral was all that was required. we were all born in 1950 so that tells you that we grew up in the culture of the the perfect, idyllic 50s. all of the families were "intact" - no divorces, single parents/step-parents. the only mother who worked outside the home was the high school librarian. all of the fathers were successful business owners. the families were solidly middle class. I never managed the courage to ask if their mothers knew about it but the friend who was abused by all of her brothers and her father volunteered that her mother could not have been unaware of what was happening. which is what stopped her from telling anyone, because she instinctively knew that her mother would not back her play if she reported it to a teacher, the school nurse, etc



sadly, this is what I learned on Grad Night, an all-nighter where we shared things that I wished I had known much sooner. they were all leaving home within the next week/month and it seemed to be a done deal so I decided not to tell my mother about it because I was nearly as scared and hopeless about coming forward as the victims were/had been



anyway, long story short: those are some sad statistics. three girls out of maybe 50 (?) in my class, and I have always wondered how many more there were. in my family the abuse was physical, mental and emotional but on Grad Night '68, as bad as my abuse was, I realized I was one of the lucky ones

((((Hugs))))

It surely is a cruel world for so so many children.




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[MyBelle]

No they don't report it..... B/c they're perfect

It's victimology that gives us the data!!!!!

BR saw a psych afterward && there were indications even prior to that night he was in therapy.... For what? They are hiding their secrets :banghead:

How could a 9-year-old who has lost two sisters in violent deaths and had his life turned into a media circus NOT need a psychiatrist?

 

[Linda7NJ]

How could a 9-year-old who has lost two sisters in violent deaths and had his life turned into a media circus NOT need a psychiatrist?

A car accident? Tragic yes, violent...no. How old was he at time?

and JonBenet's death was never discussed with him and he was shielded from the media.... All he was told, according to the Ramsey's, if you believe them, she went to heaven.




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[MyBelle]

I am not Linda but I think there has been some misinterpretation here. What she is saying is that children are molested everyday and siblings are quite often the perps. Not that a 9 year old sibling molesting a sister molests and murders a sibling almost everyday.

Wild speculation... hmmm, that is your opinion and I'm not going to disagree outright. From your posts (and others) I see this is the way you see it, and I can understand.

Would you agree that what happened in that house that night was wild in terms of the crime? I mean according to the FBI- the one and only existing case where a ransom note was left but the child victim was actually never taken but found sexually assaulted and murderd in her home. The murder appears to be brutal- wouldn't you agree? If an intruder wanted JonBenet for sexual purposes he/she could have walked out a door (he/she did do this at some point) but instead went down to a basement with the child shoved an object in the child's vagina, wiped her down, redressed her, bashed her head, strangled or garrotted her, wrapped her up and then left the home- after leaving a very lengthy, personal, and in my mind bizzare ransom note, for a considerably small amount of cash- which was a total lie. Wild- right. All the time someone could have woken up and caught the perp. All of the universe coinciding to allow possibly several hours in the home committing this awful, terrible crime. This is bizarre- wild... wouldn't you agree?

No one has been caught, charged or brought to justice.

We are left to speculate- wildly in your opinion- some of us however understand that anything is possible- that every person in that home that night needs to be looked at and for good reason.

I know two people personally who were sexually molested by their own brother (I just actually realized it is three women I know). I know their stories- their ages and how long the abuse occurred (for two it went on a LONG time). It happens- I know the stories well.

Children can be violent. This too is a fact.

Accidents occur between siblings. This is a fact.

Children are killed accidentally and sometimes intentionally by other children- This is a fact.

Parents have been known to lie to protect their children from being prosecuted for a crime. It isn't only ever about protecting their good name or image, they do it so their child doesnt get taken away or sent to jail or prison.

Someone comitted this crime. That person has gotten away with it. We are exploring all of the possibilities. I have changed my mind over time- I may again- I'm not a juror, this is not a court of law and my conscience is clear. My conclusions are not known facts or absolutes- they are opinions.

So wild speculation (in some opinions) indeed- at this point it is what many of us can do in an effort to get close to the truth.

What happened to a little girl before, during and after her murder is wild, in my book- I have a wild imagination and could never have dreamed this story.

Way back in history- when a certain wild crime was comitted- if it had never been comitted before, does that mean it couldn't happen? If the perp was completely unexpected- does that mean he didn't do it?

I'm probably not explaining myself very well. I just will never understand the idea that someone or something can't happen because of someones age, size or previous history.

I think those who believe 9-year-old BR perpetrated this sophisticated, extremely brutal crime should review the autopsy reports and the opinions of the pathologists. The child's death was not "wild" it was depraved. I believe it well beyond the capability of a 9-year-old but hey, that's just my opinion. Everybody is free to scroll and roll and I promise to do more of it.

 

[Frigga]

Gramcracker- Hugs to you my dear gram, it is a great deal to bear, thank you for sharing.

One of the women (she is a relative of my husbands) was 8 when her brother started molesting her. It began rather innocently (I don't know any other way to say it- that sounds weird though)- he started by touching her. It turned to penetrating her with his fingers and then touching himself and by the time she was twelve he was raping her. She is probably close in age to you. I know her older sister (the oldest of the 3) had been molested by a step grandfather.

My very close friend in High School (beginning my freshman year she was a sophmore) I would spend the night at her house and I had a big crush on her older brother. She had some odd little quirks, was kind and sweet and we went our separate ways after HS. Some years later we reconnected and one evening when we were drinking wine and reminiscing she confessed that her brother had molested her for years and years (it progressed very similarly to the woman in my family by marriage)- as she got older (in High school) she would barricade her door at night with a dresser or chair. They were not allowed to have locks on their bedroom doors at her house. When she was younger she would wake up and he would be next to her bed feeling her up. That's when she started wearing layers of clothes to bed- it didn't stop him. She admitted that she never told her mother because when she told her mother that her grandfather would come into the bathroom when she was in the shower and had twice forced her into his lap with a hard penis, would grope her whenever he had the chance, spy on her etc- the mother told her she was lying, flew into a rage and hit her. It was her mothers father. She never told about the brother because of it. She is friends with him now and he has a wife and children.

My other friend who is quite intelligent, from a very good family- old money and her father is pretty well known (she is my age 48) was molested by her brother from the age of 12 until she left for college. I am NOT KIDDING. She said it wasn't until she went away to college and talked with other friends and roommates when she realized this wasn't normal! This family is from New York City. I was flabergasted! She is very bohemian, a wonderful mother, and a therapist.

It happens- it follows no set pattern and it would probably blow most peoples socks off to know what happens in families.

I was molested by my granfather- who most certainly molested my own mother, and did it to at least one of my four sister's as well. I loved him and liked him- he was funny, fun, loving, generous and kind to others. My granny was cold, mean and strict. I have forgiven him and miss him sometimes. He has been dead for many, many years and it has been a process for me. No one would have ever guessed or believed it- ever! He was an elder in the church and everybody loved him.

You just never know!

What would someone do in the moment their sister or victim screamed or threatened to tell on them?

I can think of many, many things.

 

[Salem]

The back and forth bickering needs to stop now. Either be respectful of each other or leave the thread.

Salem

 

[Frigga]

Yes, it was a staged brutal crime scene, IMOO.

I don't think Burke was a brutal, homicidal maniac. I don't know wether they started out together to get a snack and he wanted to play around- again- sexually with her. A 10 year old boy can get an erection, can take something farther and farther, over time. Maybe this was the night he ended up wanting to do more. Maybe JonBenet was finally having none of it- she screamed and he hit her.

Everything else, IMOO was staging by the parents to make it appear she was attacked by a sadistic and crazed pedophile... a kidnapper from a small foreign faction. I don't know... but for the most part- my head does not go tp the place that this was anything other than an unintended accident (on Burke's part) from a seemingly (again IMOO) detached and unempathising boy (possibly with sociopath tendencies) and a huge, crazy coverup by his shocked parents, who had some idea- maybe even outright knowledge of inapropriate behavior by their son towards their little daughter- who would never have imagined that things could go down this way (the perfect and horrible confluence of things going terribly, horrifibly wrong) maybe even knowing in the recesses of their minds that something really bad could happen due to Burke's behavior, but then convincing themselves otherwise, until the night it actually did.

They were going to save their beloved son- the last child they had left together- at any and all costs.

They did things unimaginable to you or me or almost anyone with one thought only- to save their son. Their beloved son.

So much so, that they, at some point were preparing to be arrested over it.

To save their son.

They couldn't have known until after the horrifying and brutal staged cover-up that he never could be charged in the first place. Maybe that was hell enough for them. Worse than any earthly prison- they did what they did, unspeakable, unbearable things to their dead baby girl- for nothing- and then it was already too late.

 

[Salem]

The poll is officially closed.

Salem

 

[Venom]

I used to work with a girl who's boyfriend was molesting her young daughter. She (the mom-and I say that lightly) apparently knew about it. The girl told her dad, who reported it, charges were filed but then instead of having her go through a trial the dad wouldn't let her testify. They had video and pictures of the abuse, but couldn't identify who's ____ was on the pictures. (Get what I mean?) Who took the pictures- the mom. The dad ended up getting custody of the 2 girls. The mom went and had 2 more kids with the molester (twin boys). She's still with him today.

It was hard to have to work with her and be civil to her knowing what went on.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am basing my opinions on fact. It is a fact that parents murder their children but that fact isn't evidence Patsy Ramsey sexually assaulted and murdered her daughter. Yet you continue to insist the fact that children sexually assault and murder other children is common and therefore is evidence against BR. To me, that makes no sense whatsoever. I'm just trying to find a thread of logic in your implications and innuendo that a nine-year-old committed this crime.



btw, here's what you said upthread. We have JonBenet's sealed medical files and her doctor willing to destroy them before turning them over. You are implying a cover-up. Who is he covering for?

Hey, I'm completely open to the theory Patsy sexually assaulted & killed her daughter. This isn't that thread


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[gramcracker]

thank you, Frigga, and hugs to you as well. you have an awesome resilience and ability to forgive. ITA, it is a process. "we are works in progress"

Linda7NJ: when you said it surely is a cruel world for so many children I was reminded of the Lillian Gish character in The Night Of The Hunter:

"he ain't my dad!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auccmqO45a8

"it's a hard world for little things"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N9LnkKQfuc

"my soul is humbled when I see the way little ones accept their lot"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rlFiEe6S24

 

[UKGuy]

Where is the evidence to support your claim that "much more likely is some kind of abusive relationship between JonBenet and BR"?

There is absolutely no evidence there was an ongoing abusive relationship between the two children. [modsnip]

There is not a "raft of circumstantial evidence" to support your theory. No evidence her horrific death was accidental.

I'll consider such evidence if and when it ever shows up but right now it seems to be incredibly wild speculation about a nine-year-old who may very well be a victim of the same physical and psychological abuse that killed his sister.

JMO

MyBelle,
An absence of evidence does not demonstrate an absence of fact. e.g. someone was sexually molesting JonBenet. Coroner Meyer stated someone had sexual contact and digitally penetrated JonBenet. LHP cited an instance where she walked in on BR and JonBenet both under the bedcovers!

I'll consider such evidence if and when it ever shows up

Thats very kind of you, patently you have a lot of reading to do, and explains why you make such sweeping negative assertions about other members opinions.

We are dealing with theory which allows speculation from the known to the unknown.

Nobody here is alike Sherlock Holmes advancing step by step as we acquire nuggets of evidence that confirm our inferences.

Of all the theories, RDI, or IDI, like it or not, BDI is the most consistent theory out there!

.

 

[DeDee]

How could a 9-year-old who has lost two sisters in violent deaths and had his life turned into a media circus NOT need a psychiatrist?

Not a beauty pageant type necessarily yet this is one of my personal favorites of a dressy JonBenet Ramsey. She wore several dresses where her neck was covered.

Wishing I knew how to zoom in on the CS photo on the bottom laying on the flat surface that shows Burke and JonBenet allegedly on Christmas morning in the photos the Det. is studying. Does that CS photo appear to have 4 people in it? One person to the right of BR or on the far left in photograph. The fourth person is in front of JonBenet and dressed in blue skirt with black top, perhaps. Or maybe that's a doll.
My eyesight is not as sharp as it once was. Surgery cannot correct it.

http://www.acandyrose.com/AnatomyColdCase058.jpg

The CS photograph of Patsy with JonBenet, or JonBenet's last picture made while known to still be alive, where Patsy appears to be holding JonBenet's arm tightly, is in this same group of photographs, in its uncut version. That particular photo is just above and slightly to the left of the photo I need zoomed in to discern who or what is on the floor with the children.

http://www.peoples.ru/family/mother/patsy_ramsey/ramsey_2.jpg

Patsy frequently wore a wig.


OMO
Please change image files to urls.

 

[bettybaby00]

Everyone has horror stories to tell. Most times when the truth comes out, outside family and friends are shocked.

Personal influences definitely skew our perceptions of what may have happened. I think the parents knew something was amiss, and JR could very well have felt it was "Patsy's responsibility," hence his anger that morning.

Covering up for the sexual contact was the driver. Ideg how some can theorize crazy molestation scenarios involving the parents, yet the idea her brother was involved is depraved. Statistically it's more than possible, and I don't get why there continues to be demands for proof, and just as quickly that proof is rejected. There is evidence that ties all three to the crime scene, but barring a confession the full story will never be known.

We have no idea what type of person BR turned out to be. He could be a model citizen or he could be someone with major issues. We've no idea.

From AHs exonorion of BR,

"We have never developed evidence" is not the same as there was no evidence.

It's been said by many close to the investigation that we only know about a 10th of the evidence.

Lastly. IMO the fact JR didn't go after Kolar speaks volumes. If he had sued everything would come out.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

MyBelle,
An absence of evidence does not demonstrate an absence of fact. e.g. someone was sexually molesting JonBenet. Coroner Meyer stated someone had sexual contact and digitally penetrated JonBenet. LHP cited an instance where she walked in on BR and JonBenet both under the bedcovers!


Thats very kind of you, patently you have a lot of reading to do, and explains why you make such sweeping negative assertions about other members opinions.

We are dealing with theory which allows speculation from the known to the unknown.

Nobody here is alike Sherlock Holmes advancing step by step as we acquire nuggets of evidence that confirm our inferences.

Of all the theories, RDI, or IDI, like it or not, BDI is the most consistent theory out there!

.

Absence of proof is absence of fact.

BBM They were under the covers??? Siblings? OH MY GOSH!!! How awful. That means nothing. It just means they were laying in bed together. When I was a kid we all used to pile into one bed because we loved to lay there and talk about nonsense.

Nuggets only matter if they are facts with evidence to support them. Not innuendo, Or someone's opinion about what is appropriate or not. It has nothing to do with this particular case. IMO

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Everyone has horror stories to tell. Most times when the truth comes out, outside family and friends are shocked.

Everyone??? I don't. I know many people who don't. Actually there are few people who have HORROR stories. There is abuse that goes on and that is tragic. It is awful. But everyone? No..

Not even close.

The problem is that there is so much horror in this case over things that are not proven. Have no evidence to support them and are just made of nightmares that people have imagined. There is no proof that BR did anything to anyone. He is a good adult. Living a normal life. There is no proof that any of the R's abused JBR. None. There is no history of abuse in that family.

There are cases where I see abuse exposed.This is one though were I can not find real proof to even ponder it. IMO

I would love to see some real proof that BR was involved in some way.

 

[otg]

♫ ♪ ♫

♪ Scroll,

♫ Scroll,

♪ Scroll my boat,

♫ Gentlemanly down the screen.

♪ Merrily,

♫ Merrily,

♪ Merrily,

♫ Merrily...

♫ ♪ ♫

 

[otg]

View attachment 42361

Wishing I knew how to zoom in on the CS photo on the bottom laying on the flat surface that shows Burke and JonBenet allegedly on Christmas morning in the photos the Det. is studying. Does that CS photo appear to have 4 people in it? One person to the right of BR or on the far left in photograph. The fourth person is in front of JonBenet and dressed in blue skirt with black top, perhaps. Or maybe that's a doll.
My eyesight is not as sharp as it once was. Surgery cannot correct it.

http://www.acandyrose.com/AnatomyColdCase058.jpg

The CS photograph of Patsy with JonBenet, or JonBenet's last picture made while known to still be alive, where Patsy appears to be holding JonBenet's arm tightly, is in this same group of photographs, in its uncut version. That particular photo is just above and slightly to the left of the photo I need zoomed in to discern who or what is on the floor with the children.

Don't know if this will help because of the low resolution, but I enlarged and rotated the photo you asked about in the attachment. I don't think it's the same photo as the one you posted.

http://www.peoples.ru/family/mother/patsy_ramsey/ramsey_2.jpg

Patsy frequently wore a wig.

Patsy wore a wig while she was going through chemo. Insurance companies call it a "cranial prosthetic device", and most will pay for it for women (but not for men). If you notice a certain "look" that so many cancer patients seem to share, it's because they lose all hair on their body -- no eyebrows, no eylashes, no nose hair, no more need to shave underarms -- it's all gone. The hair loss is from the chemo, not the cancer itself.