Was Burke involved?

[MyBelle]

I think the final sexual assault was Patsy....to make it appear someone outside the house did it. To further implicate an intruder she concocted the note, added the rope....but yet...all that brutality... Patsy STILL covered her child with the child's favorite blanket. No intruder would do that.


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I think it is more likely that if the child was an ongoing victim of sexual assault the perp wasn't her 9-year-old brother.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think it is more likely that if the child was an ongoing victim of sexual assault the perp wasn't her 9-year-old brother.

Patsy or John?

Keep in mind that JonBenet often slept in burkes bed and he was "caught" & subsequently very angry under the covers in hers ...


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[MyBelle]

Sadly, it isn't rare at all.
It's rare that you'd ever hear about it. Typically, it's handled by CPS and a referral is made for therapy, because CPS doesn't really get involved in "kid on kid" crime in the household.
Murder committed by a 9 year old is rare.... But that happens too.



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Kid on kid crime? In a household that includes parents? I'm sorta shocked you think CPS would not get involved or worse, ignore it. It would have to be reported to police and handled as a crime with the perp removed from the household. afaik, that basic procedure hasn't changed in 40 years.

 

[MyBelle]

Patsy or John?

Keep in mind that JonBenet often slept in burkes bed and he was "caught" & subsequently very angry under the covers in hers ...


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What do you mean, Burke was "caught?" Doing what?

My youngest son never liked to sleep alone in his room and often climbed out of his crib and went into his older brother's room and climbed in with him. He did this because if he climbed into our bed, we'd carry him back to his own. This happened so often, we finally moved the boys into the same room which they shared for several years. There was nothing sexual about it.

 

[tezi]

No one said they were sane for what they did. Honestly, I think one or both of them are extreme sociopaths, only capable of caring what happens to the individual self. They assumed JBR was dead or near death, and faced losing their last remaining child together if the truth got out about what BR did (may have done).

Would a rational, logical parent do what the R's did? NOPE! That's the point. They are not rational, logical people. They are calculating and manipulative people.



How do I think it happened? BR and JBR were involved in sibling molestation (it happens. a lot. more than is comfortable to talk about). He lured her to the basement (or this happened in her bedroom and she was moved by JR later), things got out of hand, he bashed her. The parents either heard the alleged scream or BR told them what happened. Who knows if they freaked out or not, but not everyone reacts the same to a panicked situation. I totally picture JR being the calm next to PR's storm. They told BR to go to bed, they'd take care of it, and that's why he knows nothing about the note, the ligatures, the staging etc.

That is all JMO, of course. Just my personal theory.

Can you explain why he was nonplussed in the morning? Why he asked nothing about his sister? Why the parents weren't worried an intruder would target BR next? NONE of that is normal behavior, since you're clearly concerned with what kind of behavior is "normal" in a situation like this. Can you answer to any of that? THAT behavior, IMO, is "insane".

Excellent post Tawny! Just excellent!

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

Excellent post Tawny! Just excellent!

JMO

what would be great is a link to support these claims that sibling molestation between a 6-year-old and 9-year-old is all that common.

 

[tezi]

Getting on with life in a normal, lackadaisical fashion is NOT "normal thought process" after a tragedy like this or after a burglary like was described. Cut it out.

EXACTLY! I couldn't have said it better myself.

JMO

 

[gramcracker]

I think there may have been a cycle going on. sexualizing JB too soon sexualized BR too soon. she was young enough that she didn't realize how others could/would perceive her sexy image. all she knew was that it brought attention: oohs and aahs and applause. BR was three years older and therefore had a more advanced perception of what sexy was. I'm not saying that he had anything approaching a true comprehension of the mechanics and the emotions. the same too-early awakening would have occurred if he was constantly exposed to adult photographic images with a certain flavor: he would have been sexualized too soon without realizing what his thoughts/feelings meant. the cycle comes in with JB strutting around and being too flirty and him either directly or indirectly getting the message that he should not recognize and appreciate his little sister's sexy moves. it was in his face, it was in everyone's face, but others were expected to respond to while he was not. I think that was a confusing cycle of messages

if he whacked JB in the head the intent was not necessarily to kill her. so we can get off that sticking point if that makes it easier to accept the head blow being done by BR

what's interesting also is how PR minimized the golf club incident. she knew exactly when it happened because she said it was the first summer they spent in MI. she knew how old her kids were that summer: they were 6 and 3. she correctly recalled the year but then tried to say BR was 2 or 2 1/2 or 3 when he whacked JB in the face. really? then it was before she was conceived, or she was in utero, or she was an infant. PR couldn't GO THERE, that her 6-year-old clubbed her 3-year-old, so she re-wrote history to a ridiculous degree. then she also said she couldn't remember which of JB's eyes had "a big ol' shiner" even though she had the injury evaluated by a plastic surgeon. she couldn't remember which side of JB's face would possibly be marred? my fanny! she knew there was something wrong with her son's behavior toward his sister and she did too little, or nothing, about it

the erosion of JB's hymen is well documented. I find it impossible to believe that it occurred due to the actions of anyone except an immediate family member

 

[Arnie M]

I think it is more likely that if the child was an ongoing victim of sexual assault the perp wasn't her 9-year-old brother.

Hi MyBelle .... go back to around post #1463 where I mention "abuse" between a brother and sister before they were even teenagers .... anyone have any questions I will try to answer them as best I can.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Kid on kid crime? In a household that includes parents? I'm sorta shocked you think CPS would not get involved or worse, ignore it. It would have to be reported to police and handled as a crime with the perp removed from the household. afaik, that basic procedure hasn't changed in 40 years.

You're wrong. I didn't say they'd ignore it, and no they wouldn't report a 9 year old to the police.


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[Linda7NJ]

What do you mean, Burke was "caught?" Doing what?



My youngest son never liked to sleep alone in his room and often climbed out of his crib and went into his older brother's room and climbed in with him. He did this because if he climbed into our bed, we'd carry him back to his own. This happened so often, we finally moved the boys into the same room which they shared for several years. There was nothing sexual about it.

That's understandable.

That not the same set of circumstances we have in this case.


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[bettybaby00]

what would be great is a link to support these claims that sibling molestation between a 6-year-old and 9-year-old is all that common.

I don't believe it is all that common for 9-year-olds to perpetrate sexual assaults and murder. In fact, I think it would be very rare and investigators in this case didn't pursue it.

So all of these statics cited earlier are wrong...did you not see these posts?

They're all important, but I've bolded a few...

QUOTE=Tawny;10360338]Define "common".

"It is estimated that approximately 15% of all people report some kind of sexual activity with a sibling in childhood. More specifically, studies have shown that between 2% (Leder, 1991) and 4% (Finkelhor, 1999) of people have been sexually victimized by a sibling as the sexual contact involved some degree of forced or coercive activity." http://www.pandys.org/articles/siblingsexualabuse.html

http://www.socialworktoday.com/archive/111312p18.shtml

"It is typically only the most extreme cases requiring medical attention or police intervention that are reported. Many cases of sibling abuse occur "under the radar" on without parental or adult intervention." http://outofthefog.net/Relationships/SiblingAbuse.html

"TTypically sibling or cousin sexual contact is defined as "abuse" when it is marked by a five year difference; when the children are less than five years apart in age, the interaction is not deemed abusive unless force, coercion, injury, or penetration occurs. The criteria of force and/or coercion may be the most highly associated with negative outcomes, regardless of the specific sexual behavior (e.g., kissing, fondling, simulated intercourse, or exhibition) experienced (Haugaard and Tilly, 1988). Incidence of sibling or cousin sexual abuse varies greatly among studies, ranging from 10% to 40% among those reporting sexual abuse, although sibling and cousin sexual abuse are about equal in such samples (De Jong, 1988). Typically, the abuse begins when the victim is around six to seven years of age." http://www.psychpage.com/family/library/sib_abuse2.htm


I can keep c/p'ing if necessary.

Research into sexually aggressive children was described as being in its “infancy” in the mid1990s. (It appears that the earliest studies on this topic only dated to 1980.)
*The average onset of preadolescent sexual behavior problems (SBP) are between the ages of 6-9 years
*Although the term “sexual” is used, the children’s intentions and motivations for these behaviors may be unrelated to sexual gratification.
*Children act out for many varied reasons. Some may have been the prior victims of sexual abuse.
*Some may act out due to other behavioral problems related to PTSD, anger, fear, or emotional detachment.
*Sexual acting out has been linked to anger, rage, loneliness, and fear.
*FBI UCR reports in 1979 revealed 249 rape arrests for children less than 12 years of age. Sixty-six of those children were under the age of 10.
*Early research conducted in the 1980s provided evidence that preadolescent children’s behaviors can be as aggressive and violent as those of adolescents and adults.
*FBI UCR discontinued reporting the age of offenders in 1980, but the National Center for Juvenile Justice reported a forcible rape rate of .02 per 1000 for 10 and 11 year olds in 1988.
*1990 FBI and media reports in this time period indicate that among adults convicted of sex crimes, approximately 30% said they began offending before they were 9 years old.

Stats specific to SBP

*A 1991 study revealed that some children engaged in behaviors that involved fire-setting, bed-wetting, animal mutilation, and scatological behaviors- (disturbed bodily functions related to urination and elimination).
*A 1993 nationwide survey of SBP therapists identified preadolescent behaviors in 222 children that ranged from voyeurism to coercion: The more serious offenses involved digital penetration, penile intercourse, anal intercourse, bestiality, and ritualistic or sadistic sexual abuse.
*Another 1993 survey conducted in the Northwest revealed that some offenders used physical coercion that included tying up their victims.
*Offenders lack compassion, empathy, and exhibit inadequate social skills.
*A victim may be the object of revenge or anger and could be viewed as the parent’s “favored child” by the perpetrator.
*Families frequently attempt to portray themselves to the world as the “perfect” family.
*Co-morbidity: SBP patients have a higher incidence of psychiatric disorders that include, but are not limited to, attachment disorder and separation anxiety.

Moreover, these studies confirmed that children of his age were capable of committing horrendous acts of physical violence typically thought to have been reserved to adults.

Research continued to find reports of scatological behavior that was associated with SBP diagnoses, and indicated that mental health issues relating to anger, depression, and anxiety were factors that offenders attempted to resolve by acting out sexually.

And lastly....
Quote:

It was noted in a number of studies that sibling incest was quite prevalent, but it often went underreported and ignored. Contrary to the studies involving extra-familial sexual abuse, research found that it was difficult for parents to report the abuse of one of their children when it has been perpetrated at the hands of another child in the household. One 1991 study referenced in the U.S. Department of Justice article indicated that the duration of sex offending was greatest for sibling offenders. Nearly 45% of the sibling offenders studied in the research had been committing offenses for more than a year. Moreover, sibling offenders were more likely to vaginally or anally penetrate their victims than extra-familial offenders.

 

[bettybaby00]

Moreover...

The U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, authored a fairly extensive article in March 2001 that provided a comprehensive overview of research on the matter. Juveniles Who Have Sexually Offended – Review of the Professional Literature pointed out that sex offenses committed by juveniles continued to be a serious problem. The researchers who authored the article provided a comprehensive and annotated account of the many research projects that had documented the characteristics of juveniles who commit sex offenses. The article also explored the types of offenses committed, and the characteristics of the families of juvenile offenders.

To me, the more pressing question to be resolved centered on the issue of whether children of Burke’s age were capable of committing acts of physical violence that included murder. Additionally, having committed such an act, could we expect to see some type of specific pre-offense, or post-offense behavior, which would alert us to the child’s propensity to commit this type of crime.
*The FBI reported that there had been 15,848 people murdered in the United States in 1996. Seven-hundred and twenty-three (723) of those had been eight (8) years old and younger.
* I conducted further research into crime statistics involving juvenile offenders and learned that two-hundred and fifty-seven (257) children, who were fourteen (14) years of age and younger, had been arrested for murder and non-negligent manslaughter in the United States in 1996.
*Sixteen (16) of those arrests had been for boys under the age of 10.
*Another fourteen (14) arrests involved boys aged 10 to 12 years.
*The statistics for forcible rape were even more discouraging. Sixty-one (61) boys under the age of ten had been arrested for this offense in 1996.
* An additional three-hundred and thirty-five (335) boys had been arrested who were aged 10 to 12 years.

These studies confirmed that children of his age were capable of committing horrendous acts of physical violence typically thought to have been reserved to adults.

Thankfully, people who commit serial murders are far and few between, but like those who perpetrate single offenses, offenders usually tend to blend in with the rest of us. They don’t advertise their actions by tattooing a scarlet “M” on their forehead, and it frequently takes a great deal of investigative work to identify the person responsible for committing this type of crime. Additionally, given the fact that a great number of murders are never solved, it must be presumed that many perpetrators were able to successfully elude the attention of authorities and that their outward behavior did not give them away. Was it possible for a perpetrator in this particular instance to have taken the life of another and go forward without necessarily drawing the attention of authorities, or that of the people with whom they interacted every day? To date, no one has been arrested and convicted for the murder of JonBenét, so I would have to say that the answer to that question is a resounding “yes.”

Whether it had been accidental, or intentional, I believed that the national statistics pointed to the real possibility that a 9 or 10-year old could have committed a crime as egregious as the murder of JonBenét. It was my belief that the possibility of Burke’s involvement in the events of December 25 – 26 warranted further exploration.

Kolar 4867 - 4893

Whether or not you believe BR committed this crime, you can't ignore that he was capable of committing this crime.

 

[chlban]

I think if Burke killed his sister, it was because he hated her or was jealous of their mother's fixation on her and not because he wanted to have sex with her. The scene was staged by Patsy to make it appear sexually motivated because of Burke's age. No cop would believe he was old enough for a sexual assault and they didn't. Isn't that the one thing that threw the entire case into a tailspin?

Patsy concluded Burke was guilty and there had to be something that supported her conclusion. My guess is that he was quite vocal in his hatred of his little sister.

JMO

I live in Southern California and a case has just broken this week of an 8 year old boy who sexually assualted another 8 year old boy multiple times. At least one fo the assaults is alleged to have happened in the classroom while a video or movie was playing. The facts are still being discussed and of course not everyting is known. It appears that eight may well be old enough for sexual assault.

I think if BDI, it was likely during some type of sexual act. I certainly do not believe he fashioned the garotte though or even strangled her. I think that was part of the staging, and the most Burke did (if he did it, which I am not 100% on) it was the head blow, probably when she screamed to quiet her.

 

[MyBelle]

So all of these statics cited earlier are wrong...did you not see these posts?

They're all important, but I've bolded a few...





And lastly....
Quote:

*The average onset of preadolescent sexual behavior problems (SBP) are between the ages of 6-9 years
*Although the term “sexual” is used, the children’s intentions and motivations for these behaviors may be unrelated to sexual gratification.

Statistics are not proof. GMAB. I've highlighted the two points that I believe apply to this case.

 

[Mama2JML]

Patsy or John?

Keep in mind that JonBenet often slept in burkes bed and he was "caught" & subsequently very angry under the covers in hers ...


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Also, keep in mind, this story was reported in a tabloid by an anonymous source.

 

[MyBelle]

You're wrong. I didn't say they'd ignore it, and no they wouldn't report a 9 year old to the police.


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In my state, it would be reported to the police. Mandatory.

 

[Mama2JML]

Playing doctor might be rather common, but research suggests sibling sexual abuse/molestation is not nearly common.

"...2%-4% of people have been sexually victimized by a sibling as the sexual contact involved some degree of forced or coercive activity." http://www.pandys.org/articles/siblingsexualabuse.html

 

[Tawny]

BBM. Find something to support the contention that the perp was a nine-year-old boy.

I did. Did you click the links and read any of what I posted? Did you try to do research of your own?

Kid on kid crime? In a household that includes parents? I'm sorta shocked you think CPS would not get involved or worse, ignore it. It would have to be reported to police and handled as a crime with the perp removed from the household. afaik, that basic procedure hasn't changed in 40 years.

Who would be the ones to report it? The parents. Just because it's mandatory to report doesn't mean they WILL report.

what would be great is a link to support these claims that sibling molestation between a 6-year-old and 9-year-old is all that common.

I already provided these.

*The average onset of preadolescent sexual behavior problems (SBP) are between the ages of 6-9 years
*Although the term “sexual” is used, the children’s intentions and motivations for these behaviors may be unrelated to sexual gratification.

Statistics are not proof. GMAB. I've highlighted the two points that I believe apply to this case.

What would be good enough for you? I provided numerous links and another poster provided more information. We have no way of knowing if BR's actions were motivated by sexual gratification. I don't believe they were. I believe they were curiosity. I don't believe he was "getting off" on any of it.

In my state, it would be reported to the police. Mandatory.

Again, just because something is mandatory doesn't mean it will happen. Staging a cover up to a crime is illegal and yet that GJ indicted the parents for that.

 

[Tawny]

With all respect to poor JBR, we don't know that the contact with BR was "forced or coerced." I am aware that statement will ignite anger and extremely uncomfortable emotions in some members, but it doesn't make JBR LESS of a victim simply because she wasn't forced, in this situation (IF that is the case).