Was Burke involved?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Was Burke involved in JB's death?

  • Burke was involved in the death of JBR

    Votes: 377 59.6%
  • Burke was totally uninvolved in her death

    Votes: 256 40.4%

  • Total voters
    633
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Not sure if this is the correct place to ask...can anyone point me in the direction of the "law" Re: the age of culpability for a criminal act in Co.? Google in this instance appears not to be my friend. :( I've tried numerous searches, and all I'm getting is broad references to "defense of infancy" statutes that don't really get into all the finer points that are often cited here.

TIA :)

The actual statue was posted here on this forum by one of our esteemed research experts. You should be able to search it.
But in 1996 (and I believe presently as well) the age of culpability in Colorado was 10. BR was 2 weeks shy of his 10th birthday.
 
Not like that you can't.. :)

Just because someone has looked at the evidence and sees it a different way does not make them wrong. I look at the hard stuff. The stuff the police have. I do not look at what wanna be detectives look at. I don't make up scenarios.. I look at the evidence as gathered and look for the answer there.

For me it still points to intruder. I do believe it was someone they knew or that knew them better than the Ramsey's knew them.

But I believe it was someone other than the immediate family.

I'm with you Scarlett. I'm taking a hard look at this case again and always come back to the same thing, Intruder. I personally can care less if the Ramseys are guilty or not, but every time I dig into this case I come up with the same conclusion. First off, I've always found it impossible to believe that anyone, Intruder or Ramsey, could write a 350+ word ransom note after a murder such as this. I believe the note was written before. I've recently re-read John Douglas' take on this case and he makes some excellent points. I've ordered James Kolar's book and I'm looking forward to reading it. Evidently he thinks Burke did it(BDI). I find it hard to believe. Look at it this way. If Burke killed JBR his parents wouldn't let him out of there sight. He's only 9 years old, god knows what he might say. And yet what do they do? Let him go off and stay with the Whites. How do they know he won't blab? Makes no sense.
 
IMO, I think Burke did it. Burke did it and the parents covered it up.

Too many things in my mind point to this.

The big one is the bowl with the pineapple in it. It had Patsy and Burke's prints on it. The pineapple was found in JB's system and apparently had only been in her system for about 2 hours prior, I think it was?

And if you really think about it, there would be at least one good reason to cover this up. The Ramseys were so intent on coming across as a perfect family. If this got out, they'd have been ruined. They were ruined anyway, but people don't tend to think about how things snowball after something like this happens.

I honestly also feel like, if John or Patsy did it, Burke would have given up the ghost by now. They didn't seem like a close family at all from what I've read. Patsy is dead, so if she did it, Burke could have come out and said it with no repercussions. John is still alive, but I can't see anything catastrophic happening if Burke said "yeah, my dad did it." It would just be too easy to come out and say if his parents did it or not. I know if my parents murdered someone or if I thought they did, I'd squeal in a heartbeat.

But this....this doesn't make any sense. Knowing that Burke didn't say anything about either of them, makes me think he did it. And why would the Ramseys lie and say that Burke was asleep, when evidence points to the contrary? I feel like if his parents truly did the whole thing, he'd have come out and said it. His interview is another really weird thing to consider. Leaving JB out of the photo, and acting uncomfortable when "bad touching" is brought up. Something stinks here.
 
I'm with you Scarlett. I'm taking a hard look at this case again and always come back to the same thing, Intruder. I personally can care less if the Ramseys are guilty or not, but every time I dig into this case I come up with the same conclusion. First off, I've always found it impossible to believe that anyone, Intruder or Ramsey, could write a 350+ word ransom note after a murder such as this. I believe the note was written before. I've recently re-read John Douglas' take on this case and he makes some excellent points. I've ordered James Kolar's book and I'm looking forward to reading it. Evidently he thinks Burke did it(BDI). I find it hard to believe. Look at it this way. If Burke killed JBR his parents wouldn't let him out of there sight. He's only 9 years old, god knows what he might say. And yet what do they do? Let him go off and stay with the Whites. How do they know he won't blab? Makes no sense.

I'm about 1/2 way thru Kolar's book. I've read more than a few arguments against BDI b/c he was sent out of their house and away from their "control" the morning of the 26th.

One surprising (for me) tidbit I got from the book is that BR was taken out of the house by FW BEFORE the arrival of detectives. Also, new for me--but I suspect most people here already knew this--is that after JR went to "wake" BR, he thwarted French's attempt to interview BR before he left b/c according to JR he was asleep the whole time. It's hard to believe that he heard nothing, especially the described commotion as a result of finding the ransom note, and the subsequent 911 call. According to JR, he woke BR and told him "to get dressed and that his sister was missing." BR grabbed his Nintendo, and left with FW, who later told investigators "there had been very little conversation between them in the car, and that BR asked him no questions about his sister's disappearance, or about the the presence of uniformed police officers in his home that morning." (29, 85)

I find that beyond odd. I can definitely accept when people defend BRs "behavior" in the days following the murder, and at the funeral as that of someone in shock, etc., etc. but how does one get woken up by a parent and instead of getting ready to depart on a family trip, you're told your sibling is missing, and when you emerge from your room you see your family's pastor, close friends of the family, as well as uniformed police and CSI people, not to mention your "inconsolable" mother and not ask a S***load of questions?

Really, really odd for me. One thought I've had about the "letting him out from under their direct control," argument is the idea that perhaps he was sedated as well? Is there any info regarding his behavior after he was left at the white's?
 
IMO, I think Burke did it. Burke did it and the parents covered it up.

Too many things in my mind point to this.

The big one is the bowl with the pineapple in it. It had Patsy and Burke's prints on it. The pineapple was found in JB's system and apparently had only been in her system for about 2 hours prior, I think it was?

And if you really think about it, there would be at least one good reason to cover this up. The Ramseys were so intent on coming across as a perfect family. If this got out, they'd have been ruined. They were ruined anyway, but people don't tend to think about how things snowball after something like this happens.

I honestly also feel like, if John or Patsy did it, Burke would have given up the ghost by now. They didn't seem like a close family at all from what I've read. Patsy is dead, so if she did it, Burke could have come out and said it with no repercussions. John is still alive, but I can't see anything catastrophic happening if Burke said "yeah, my dad did it." It would just be too easy to come out and say if his parents did it or not. I know if my parents murdered someone or if I thought they did, I'd squeal in a heartbeat.

But this....this doesn't make any sense. Knowing that Burke didn't say anything about either of them, makes me think he did it. And why would the Ramseys lie and say that Burke was asleep, when evidence points to the contrary? I feel like if his parents truly did the whole thing, he'd have come out and said it. His interview is another really weird thing to consider. Leaving JB out of the photo, and acting uncomfortable when "bad touching" is brought up. Something stinks here.

Well the whole thing with the pineapple is fairly meaningless IMO. If PR was involved, why lie about the pineapple? It would've been so much easier to just say, oh yeah that's right I gave JBR some pineapple. And yet she's always stuck to her story that she didn't give JBR any pineapple. Who knows maybe she gave her pineapple and forgot about it. As far as the fingerprints on the bowl. Well they live in that house! Obviously their fingerprints would be there. I don't attach too much significance to the pineapple. Also, if Burke killed her one would think he'd be one seriously screwed up kid. And from everything I've heard he isn't. But like I said, I believe the note was written prior to the crime and that eliminates all the Ramseys.
 
I'm about 1/2 way thru Kolar's book. I've read more than a few arguments against BDI b/c he was sent out of their house and away from their "control" the morning of the 26th.

One surprising (for me) tidbit I got from the book is that BR was taken out of the house by FW BEFORE the arrival of detectives. Also, new for me--but I suspect most people here already knew this--is that after JR went to "wake" BR, he thwarted French's attempt to interview BR before he left b/c according to JR he was asleep the whole time. It's hard to believe that he heard nothing, especially the described commotion as a result of finding the ransom note, and the subsequent 911 call. According to JR, he woke BR and told him "to get dressed and that his sister was missing." BR grabbed his Nintendo, and left with FW, who later told investigators "there had been very little conversation between them in the car, and that BR asked him no questions about his sister's disappearance, or about the the presence of uniformed police officers in his home that morning." (29, 85)

I find that beyond odd. I can definitely accept when people defend BRs "behavior" in the days following the murder, and at the funeral as that of someone in shock, etc., etc. but how does one get woken up by a parent and instead of getting ready to depart on a family trip, you're told your sibling is missing, and when you emerge from your room you see your family's pastor, close friends of the family, as well as uniformed police and CSI people, not to mention your "inconsolable" mother and not ask a S***load of questions?

Really, really odd for me. One thought I've had about the "letting him out from under their direct control," argument is the idea that perhaps he was sedated as well? Is there any info regarding his behavior after he was left at the white's?

Maybe, maybe not. BR was only 9 years old. Maybe he was in a daze. Maybe he was too traumatized, etc. I am looking forward to reading the book though. Not necessarily because I believe that theory but because it's supposed to have a bunch of new facts. How you liking it so far?
 
I'm about 1/2 way thru Kolar's book. I've read more than a few arguments against BDI b/c he was sent out of their house and away from their "control" the morning of the 26th.

One surprising (for me) tidbit I got from the book is that BR was taken out of the house by FW BEFORE the arrival of detectives. Also, new for me--but I suspect most people here already knew this--is that after JR went to "wake" BR, he thwarted French's attempt to interview BR before he left b/c according to JR he was asleep the whole time. It's hard to believe that he heard nothing, especially the described commotion as a result of finding the ransom note, and the subsequent 911 call. According to JR, he woke BR and told him "to get dressed and that his sister was missing." BR grabbed his Nintendo, and left with FW, who later told investigators "there had been very little conversation between them in the car, and that BR asked him no questions about his sister's disappearance, or about the the presence of uniformed police officers in his home that morning." (29, 85)

I find that beyond odd. I can definitely accept when people defend BRs "behavior" in the days following the murder, and at the funeral as that of someone in shock, etc., etc. but how does one get woken up by a parent and instead of getting ready to depart on a family trip, you're told your sibling is missing, and when you emerge from your room you see your family's pastor, close friends of the family, as well as uniformed police and CSI people, not to mention your "inconsolable" mother and not ask a S***load of questions?

Really, really odd for me. One thought I've had about the "letting him out from under their direct control," argument is the idea that perhaps he was sedated as well? Is there any info regarding his behavior after he was left at the white's?

bettybaby00,
I wonder what JR said to FW so to justify removing him, even before the police start any interviews? It has always appeared to me as if JR wanted BR away from the police, period. Nothing to do with being there when JonBenet might be found etc, just no contact with LEA!

If BR is not involved whats wrong with few words prior to leaving? Looks to me as if BR is unilaterally being removed from the script. Indeed this was the R's narrative until they admitted he was awake and being in bed was a fake story.

I think all three R's were involved and the parents decided lets save BR, and we will take the heat, after all he is only 9-year old yada yada.

.
 
bettybaby00,
I wonder what JR said to FW so to justify removing him, even before the police start any interviews? It has always appeared to me as if JR wanted BR away from the police, period. Nothing to do with being there when JonBenet might be found etc, just no contact with LEA!

If BR is not involved whats wrong with few words prior to leaving? Looks to me as if BR is unilaterally being removed from the script. Indeed this was the R's narrative until they admitted he was awake and being in bed was a fake story.

I think all three R's were involved and the parents decided lets save BR, and we will take the heat, after all he is only 9-year old yada yada.

.

If one of my children was missing I would want the other one safe and away from the situation. I would know I was incapable of caring for one while freaking out and worrying about the other. So I would also get my child out and away somewhere safe quickly.

That does not seem odd to me at all.
 
Well the whole thing with the pineapple is fairly meaningless IMO. If PR was involved, why lie about the pineapple? It would've been so much easier to just say, oh yeah that's right I gave JBR some pineapple. And yet she's always stuck to her story that she didn't give JBR any pineapple. Who knows maybe she gave her pineapple and forgot about it. As far as the fingerprints on the bowl. Well they live in that house! Obviously their fingerprints would be there. I don't attach too much significance to the pineapple. Also, if Burke killed her one would think he'd be one seriously screwed up kid. And from everything I've heard he isn't. But like I said, I believe the note was written prior to the crime and that eliminates all the Ramseys.

I've read some really weird stuff about Burke (stuff like him smearing feces on the walls and saying some strange stuff about his sister, like asking why other "oohed and ahhed" over her), and that's what made me start thinking that maybe he's the one who did it. Before that, I thought maybe the parents did it, and even before THAT, I thought an intruder had done it. But now, weighing everything I've learned, it sounds like to me they were trying to protect Burke. JMO.

Some people ask why, if BDI, why they sent him away the next morning, not knowing if he'd tell someone about the murder or not. It could be that he was threatened into not saying anything, or promised something in return for not talking about it. Like, say, "you'll be in huge trouble if you talk about this to anyone else." That sort of thing. I'm thinking maybe the fear of God was put into him somehow, if he actually killed JB.

As for the fingerprints on the bowl, what you say is true. But why would only Patsy and Burke's prints be on it? They were fresh enough to where they could be identified, too. I don't know if they said when the prints were put on the bowl, but Patsy could have lied about it to clear herself (in the way of writing the ransom note) and Burke, not knowing that their prints were all over the bowl, clear as day. I see it as possibly being a valid clue, as long as the prints were indeed new.
 
I've read some really weird stuff about Burke (stuff like him smearing feces on the walls and saying some strange stuff about his sister, like asking why other "oohed and ahhed" over her), and that's what made me start thinking that maybe he's the one who did it. Before that, I thought maybe the parents did it, and even before THAT, I thought an intruder had done it. But now, weighing everything I've learned, it sounds like to me they were trying to protect Burke. JMO.

Some people ask why, if BDI, why they sent him away the next morning, not knowing if he'd tell someone about the murder or not. It could be that he was threatened into not saying anything, or promised something in return for not talking about it. Like, say, "you'll be in huge trouble if you talk about this to anyone else." That sort of thing. I'm thinking maybe the fear of God was put into him somehow, if he actually killed JB.

As for the fingerprints on the bowl, what you say is true. But why would only Patsy and Burke's prints be on it? They were fresh enough to where they could be identified, too. I don't know if they said when the prints were put on the bowl, but Patsy could have lied about it to clear herself (in the way of writing the ransom note) and Burke, not knowing that their prints were all over the bowl, clear as day. I see it as possibly being a valid clue, as long as the prints were indeed new.

They could simply be old prints. I haven't read Kolar's book yet so I don't know all these details about Burke. Of course I really think the RN was written before the murder and that would eliminate the Ramseys. Unless you believe that JBR's murder was premeditated. Some people still believe that.
 
:seeya: on my iPad so quoting multiple people is hard!

To scarletscarpetta-- yes I agree I would want my child to be safe and out of harms way as well. But I feel as if I would be receptive to him being asked a few questions as to whether on not he heard anything odd during the night before he left. It's not as if French was demanding he be brought to the police station for an extended interrogation ? Also, JB is a adamant that he doesn't know anything b/c he was asleep all night and morning. but how does he know that BR hasn't heard anything, no one has yet to ask him?

--to it was an intruder....your point about the prints on the pineapple bowl being "old" kolar wonders about them, obviously, and it strikes him as odd in that presumably the bowl was taken from a cabinet and had been clean, meaning the prints are "fresh"

Of course one could argue that the prints are the result of removing the bowl from the dishwasher and putting it into the cabinet. Yet the only print on the bowl are PRs, and the only print on the glass are BRs. One could further argue that her print is left over as outlined above, but obviously JB did have pineapple that night so how did she get it? PR swears that if the kids went down after being put to bed to have a snack, then she would have heard them. If an intruder feeds JB the pineapple why doesn't PR hear it?


As for him "being in a daze," that morning, yes it's possible. But for me it's hard to see someone waking up to such a chaotic situation and not be seemingly effected by it.

As far as BR being a "screwed up kid" and subsequently a screwed up adult Kolar's findings on the subject of SBP are interesting. His research reveals, "despite concerns that children who begun offending at an early age would continue into their later years, evidence suggested that the bulk of children diagnosed with SBP were at a very low risk of for committing further sex offenses, especially when provided with appropriate treatment." (375) the Ramsey's admit that BR did received counseling after the move to Atlanta, although there was never any statement as to what he was being treated for, nor do we know whether or not he was diagnosed with SBP. However, there were aspects of both BR and JB's medical records that the Ramsey's refused to,have divulged. And to date they never have been.


To ,UKGuy, interestingly it is FW who suggests that BR be "sequestered to the safety of his home." (29)

FWIW, I'm about 3/4s of the way through the book. For me it's been very helpful b/c it lays out the case in a very concise manner, and for someone like me who is finally sinking their teeth into the details of the case it serves as a JRB investigation 101. Even if you do not draw the same conclusions as Kolar, he does an excellent job of laying out the evidence, and really gets into the political machinations that IMO have greatly affected this case.
 
:seeya: on my iPad so quoting multiple people is hard!

To scarletscarpetta-- yes I agree I would want my child to be safe and out of harms way as well. But I feel as if I would be receptive to him being asked a few questions as to whether on not he heard anything odd during the night before he left. It's not as if French was demanding he be brought to the police station for an extended interrogation ? Also, JB is a adamant that he doesn't know anything b/c he was asleep all night and morning. but how does he know that BR hasn't heard anything, no one has yet to ask him?

--to it was an intruder....your point about the prints on the pineapple bowl being "old" kolar wonders about them, obviously, and it strikes him as odd in that presumably the bowl was taken from a cabinet and had been clean, meaning the prints are "fresh"

Of course one could argue that the prints are the result of removing the bowl from the dishwasher and putting it into the cabinet. Yet the only print on the bowl are PRs, and the only print on the glass are BRs. One could further argue that her print is left over as outlined above, but obviously JB did have pineapple that night so how did she get it? PR swears that if the kids went down after being put to bed to have a snack, then she would have heard them. If an intruder feeds JB the pineapple why doesn't PR hear it?


As for him "being in a daze," that morning, yes it's possible. But for me it's hard to see someone waking up to such a chaotic situation and not be seemingly effected by it.

As far as BR being a "screwed up kid" and subsequently a screwed up adult Kolar's findings on the subject of SBP are interesting. His research reveals, "despite concerns that children who begun offending at an early age would continue into their later years, evidence suggested that the bulk of children diagnosed with SBP were at a very low risk of for committing further sex offenses, especially when provided with appropriate treatment." (375) the Ramsey's admit that BR did received counseling after the move to Atlanta, although there was never any statement as to what he was being treated for, nor do we know whether or not he was diagnosed with SBP. However, there were aspects of both BR and JB's medical records that the Ramsey's refused to,have divulged. And to date they never have been.


To ,UKGuy, interestingly it is FW who suggests that BR be "sequestered to the safety of his home." (29)

FWIW, I'm about 3/4s of the way through the book. For me it's been very helpful b/c it lays out the case in a very concise manner, and for someone like me who is finally sinking their teeth into the details of the case it serves as a JRB investigation 101. Even if you do not draw the same conclusions as Kolar, he does an excellent job of laying out the evidence, and really gets into the political machinations that IMO have greatly affected this case.

bettybaby00,
Safety? Whut, safety from what, so you reckon FW waltzed in, did a cursory search, found nothing then suggested to JR I reckon BR should be sequestered for his own safety? Lets drive him over to my house.

From memory they even helped make BR's bed up before he left, just what was going on here. Why would FW assist in removing a suspect from a homicide crime-scene?

.
 
bettybaby00,
Safety? Whut, safety from what, so you reckon FW waltzed in, did a cursory search, found nothing then suggested to JR I reckon BR should be sequestered for his own safety? Lets drive him over to my house.

From memory they even helped make BR's bed up before he left, just what was going on here. Why would FW assist in removing a suspect from a homicide crime-scene?

.

IDK, but I believe FW has/had the best of intentions. I can understand the logic...it must have been a chaotic and scary scene that morning. Don't forget, at this time, the police still believe they are there b/c of a kidnapping. No reason, however, not to let French ask a few questions before he goes. But yet, interestingly, in later interviews with BR (he is seen by DSS about a week after the murder) he claims to have no fear of the "intruder" returning and harming him. According to experts this is a common issue in these types of situations...for all kids in the community, not just siblings. many of their classmates had these fears.

also of note, is that the Whites are not supporters of the Ramsey's for long.
 
IDK, but I believe FW has/had the best of intentions. I can understand the logic...it must have been a chaotic and scary scene that morning. Don't forget, at this time, the police still believe they are there b/c of a kidnapping. No reason, however, not to let French ask a few questions before he goes. But yet, interestingly, in later interviews with BR (he is seen by DSS about a week after the murder) he claims to have no fear of the "intruder" returning and harming him. According to experts this is a common issue in these types of situations...for all kids in the community, not just siblings. many of their classmates had these fears.

also of note, is that the Whites are not supporters of the Ramsey's for long.

bettybaby00,
I reckon the parents realized the weak point is BR, so he has to be relocated. He cannot be allowed to talk with LEA just in case he blurts out something emabarrassing.

Why would FW inject himself into the case with an offer to relocate one of the suspects?


.
 
bettybaby00,
I reckon the parents realized the weak point is BR, so he has to be relocated. He cannot be allowed to talk with LEA just in case he blurts out something emabarrassing.

Why would FW inject himself into the case with an offer to relocate one of the suspects?


.

I think saying that FW injected himself is too strong a concept. After calling 911 patsy felt compelled to call the pastor, the whites, and the fernies to "come as soon as possible," something horrible has happened. Moreover, they were there within minutes of the first officers. I'd describe the early hours of the day as a vigil. No one was considered a suspect at that point in time, they were all waiting for the ransom call.
 
I think saying that FW injected himself is too strong a concept. After calling 911 patsy felt compelled to call the pastor, the whites, and the fernies to "come as soon as possible," something horrible has happened. Moreover, they were there within minutes of the first officers. I'd describe the early hours of the day as a vigil. No one was considered a suspect at that point in time, they were all waiting for the ransom call.

bettybaby00,
Basically after searching the house, including the wine-cellar, and not finding JonBenet. FW offers to take BR away to his house, now thats a big move for anyone, since BR is still a suspect, possibly not at the top of the list, FW is removing a potential witness from the crime-scene?

Its probable JR talked him into it.


.
 
bettybaby00,
Basically after searching the house, including the wine-cellar, and not finding JonBenet. FW offers to take BR away to his house, now thats a big move for anyone, since BR is still a suspect, possibly not at the top of the list, FW is removing a potential witness from the crime-scene?

Its probable JR talked him into it.


.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

My take was it wasn't viewed as a particularly suspicious move to remove BR from the scene. If it were then I think LE could have refused it. Before 8am no one was considered a "suspect" b/c the police thought they were dealing with a kidnapping, and JRB hadn't been found yet.
 
Hi, you know it's always possible JB just got up in the middle of the night and ate pineapple. As to whether PR would've heard her down there I wouldn't necessarily think so. I grew up in a 3 story home and my bedroom was on the 3rd floor and I could never here anything that was going on down in the kitchen. And the Ramsey home was a heck of lot bigger than ours.
 
Hi, you know it's always possible JB just got up in the middle of the night and ate pineapple. As to whether PR would've heard her down there I wouldn't necessarily think so. I grew up in a 3 story home and my bedroom was on the 3rd floor and I could never here anything that was going on down in the kitchen. And the Ramsey home was a heck of lot bigger than ours.

Just to add I live in a ranch style house. All one floor. My kids get up and can walk into the kitchen and I would not hear them if my door was shut. The thing is also as your kids get older you start to hear less. It's not like when they are first born and your hearing is more acute.
 
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