Was Burke involved?

[Linda7NJ]

Some of Patsy's friends were reported to have claimed that Patsy used to douche JB when she soiled herself. A douche wand is about the width of a finger, though slightly longer. A pre-filled disposable douche bottle (like Summer's Eve) has a shorter attached "wand". Either COULD have caused internal damage, especially the injury that caused the bleeding, if it was done forcefully (as in a rage or fit of temper). There has been no official confirmation of this, however. The housekeeper, LHP, did tell police that Patsy used to regularly take JB into the bathroom when she soiled and she used to hear JB crying and screaming. LHP did not mention douching specifically, but she never entered the bathroom during these episodes to see what was going on.

Patsy's friends reported that? Do you recall where you heard or read that?

I honestly have never heard of such a thing as douching a child for any reason.
I'm wondering how this subject would even come up in conversation ... But then again I've had people tell me some crazy stuff too. ( nothing as crazy as douching a six year old)

what did her friends think, say or do?


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[dodie20]

So what's JR's motive for staging?

He didn't even like PR, why not call 911 and let them sort it out?

IDK what anybody's motive was for staging, but from what I've seen, it looks like he may have done some of the staging within staging the FBI referred to, and/or some of the undoing. Who knows...maybe he discovered the scene and realizing PR was behind it, made the rash decision to try to help her. And I don't know that he didn't like her. They were married and had kids together, and I've never heard a thing about them discussing divorce or anything. But, if he did decide to help her, it seemed to be in a self preservation kind of way-like hiring separate lawyers because their interest conflicted with each other. Another thing I've considered-that note was very angry with JR and threatened retaliation with countermeasures and mentioned his 'situation', etc. IMO, JR could have taken the threats seriously and decided to protect himself because he knew PR had information that could hurt him in some way, maybe to the point of he, himself going to prison too. all moo Here's another idea...say JR justified 'helping' PR by rationalizing something like, 'I didn't see who killed JB, so I don't know what happened exactly , maybe it was an accident and a panicked cover up'... but at the same time, he was aware enough to hire his own lawyer. just an idea and moo

 

[Venom]

Patsy's friends reported that? Do you recall where you heard or read that?

I honestly have never heard of such a thing as douching a child for any reason.
I'm wondering how this subject would even come up in conversation ... But then again I've had people tell me some crazy stuff too. ( nothing as crazy as douching a six year old)

what did her friends think, say or do?


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That reminds me of the story about PR and NP discussing BR's size. I don't even want to type it out.

 

[gramcracker]

re trouble in paradise/strain/not getting along: when ST interviewed PR he asked her what she knew about the woman in AZ who claimed an affair with JR during his marriage to PR, and PR said she knew about her and that she was "an extortionist"

 

[lawstudent]

Melatonin does not knock you out. I highly doubt someone would be unaware they were being abused due to melatonin. I think the absence of additional victims is highly suspicious - it's possible they just haven't spoke up, but I do think it is highly unlikely. I've never understood the molestation part of this case.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Burke is an interesting candidate. But I don't truly believe he was involved.Although, I do from time to time entertain the notion. Infact, just a few days ago I was seriously trying to theorise about his involvement but such is the manner with this case that within a few hours I'm back to my original thesis.

For Burke to be involved we have to invent a motive for him either outright killing his sister or sexually molesting her and it going wrong or 'accidentally' hitting her on the head and staging a cover up or likewise accidentally hitting her and then managing to get his parents to stage/coverup etc. It just seems too speculative. And if he only hit his sister accidentally why would his parents cover for him? Yes I know, because they wanted to protect their image but even that is an assumption.Was he the molester too which then forces us to ponder why/how his parents would interject themselves into a crime and start garroting their dead 6 year old all because Burke accidentally hit her. For me personally, there is just too many mental gymnastics that have to be deployed to believe Burke did it whilst the evnts can be satisfactorily explained another way.

I don't think Burke was involved in the sense he molested or garroted or hit JonBenet over the head. But did he hear stuff? I mean, did that scream wake him up? Did he hear someone rumbling about downstairs? Did he/does he suspect one of his parents because he heard them up and about contradicting their police stories? He may be involved in that sense.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

That reminds me of the story about PR and NP discussing BR's size. I don't even want to type it out.

Seriously? You have *got* to be kidding me!!!!

 

[Linda7NJ]

Burke is an interesting candidate. But I don't truly believe he was involved.Although, I do from time to time entertain the notion. Infact, just a few days ago I was seriously trying to theorise about his involvement but such is the manner with this case that within a few hours I'm back to my original thesis.

For Burke to be involved we have to invent a motive for him either outright killing his sister or sexually molesting her and it going wrong or 'accidentally' hitting her on the head and staging a cover up or likewise accidentally hitting her and then managing to get his parents to stage/coverup etc. It just seems too speculative. And if he only hit his sister accidentally why would his parents cover for him? Yes I know, because they wanted to protect their image but even that is an assumption.Was he the molester too which then forces us to ponder why/how his parents would interject themselves into a crime and start garroting their dead 6 year old all because Burke accidentally hit her. For me personally, there is just too many mental gymnastics that have to be deployed to believe Burke did it whilst the evnts can be satisfactorily explained another way.

I don't think Burke was involved in the sense he molested or garroted or hit JonBenet over the head. But did he hear stuff? I mean, did that scream wake him up? Did he hear someone rumbling about downstairs? Did he/does he suspect one of his parents because he heard them up and about contradicting their police stories? He may be involved in that sense.

Why must the head bash be accidental? Why couldn't it be sibling rivalry to the extreme? When I consider Burkes detached therapy drawings he seems disconnected from everyone and didn't seem to miss her. Without her ... His life was better.

He asked no questions that morning displaying no concern there were tons of activity and strangers there. No questions about his sister.

Extreme jealousy is a possibility. She appears to be the "golden Child" with attention heaped on her, Burke appears almost ignored.

No reason the sexual abuse couldn't be Burke. No reason to conclude the paintbrush handle was staging to cover prior abuse. Maybe the abuse escalated to that, she screams, he bashes her head to shut her up.

He bashed her in the face before with a golf club, maybe it wasn't an accident?

Maybe Patsy & John did hear the scream...and proceeded to clean her up and stage the rest.


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[Venom]

Seriously? You have *got* to be kidding me!!!!

I wish I wasn't


"They were so meshed up in each other, and it was my gut instinct that told me something wasn't right there," says Stobie. "They were going on and on about the size of Burke's penis. This, to me, was so bizarre....

from http://bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html

 

[Venom]

Why must the head bash be accidental? Why couldn't it be sibling rivalry to the extreme? When I consider Burkes detached therapy drawings he seems disconnected from everyone and didn't seem to miss her. Without her ... His life was better.

He asked no questions that morning displaying no concern there were tons of activity and strangers there. No questions about his sister.

Extreme jealousy is a possibility. She appears to be the "golden Child" with attention heaped on her, Burke appears almost ignored.

No reason the sexual abuse couldn't be Burke. No reason to conclude the paintbrush handle was staging to cover prior abuse. Maybe the abuse escalated to that, she screams, he bashes her head to shut her up.

He bashed her in the face before with a golf club, maybe it wasn't an accident?

Maybe Patsy & John did hear the scream...and proceeded to clean her up and stage the rest.


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Going with this, maybe the paintbrush handle was a way to hurt JB. Could have been done in anger.

jmo

 

[Linda7NJ]

Been thinking... There were reports of JonBenet and Burke allegedly engaging in some type of "exploratory" sexual contact.

There were reportedly books given to Patsy to help deal with "issues" with Burke. My memory is a tad vague on details & particulars of this.

Perhaps Patsy knew Burke was abusing JonBenet that way. Maybe that's why she kept taking her to the pediatrician. She wanted him to discover the abuse and develop a plan of action. She didn't want to be the one to tell John, she didn't want to, or didn't have any idea what to do about it.


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[Linda7NJ]

Another thought.

Ya know how the rope around her neck is very tight?

What if ...the head injury caused some swelling and the rope didn't start out embedded in her neck, her neck swelled around it ?

If the staging began shortly after the scream...

Maybe Burke scampered off to bed immediately after whacking her in the head? Pasty finds JonBenet, knows it was Burke, cleans her up, redresses her. applies the rope as described above.

Stages not only to protect Burke but HERSELF

writes the note to point away from anyone in the house.

In the morning she goes into acting mode...all the screaming and yelling awakens Burke who appears downstairs right as Patsy is hanging up from 911. And he asks..."what did you find?"


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[SapphireSteel]

Going with this, maybe the paintbrush handle was a way to hurt JB. Could have been done in anger.

jmo

My thoughts are more along the lines of covering up old abuse.

Or, attempting to cover it up.

JB died unexpectedly, the staging was applied to hide what happened.

Ditto the paintbrush - let's hide what happened.

:sick:

:moo:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Another thought.

Ya know how the rope around her neck is very tight?

What if ...the head injury caused some swelling and the rope didn't start out embedded in her neck, her neck swelled around it ?

If the staging began shortly after the scream...

Maybe Burke scampered off to bed immediately after whacking her in the head? Pasty finds JonBenet, knows it was Burke, cleans her up, redresses her. applies the rope as described above.

Stages not only to protect Burke but HERSELF

writes the note to point away from anyone in the house.

In the morning she goes into acting mode...all the screaming and yelling awakens Burke who appears downstairs right as Patsy is hanging up from 911. And he asks..."what did you find?"


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I still think that

1. these two would never stage to protect anyone else but themselves and

2. if you are going to cover for a murdering son, the very first part of the coverup is to coach that son.

BR was not coached, it is clear from his comment. They either forgot to, or knew they didn't have to because those kids did what their parents told them - or what their father told them, at least.

It just doesn't fit. No logic. Burke would have been privy to the staging, it is essential to any involvement/coverup.

:cow:

 

[Linda7NJ]

I still think that

1. these two would never stage to protect anyone else but themselves and

2. if you are going to cover for a murdering son, the very first part of the coverup is to coach that son.

BR was not coached, it is clear from his comment. They either forgot to, or knew they didn't have to because those kids did what their parents told them - or what their father told them, at least.

It just doesn't fit. No logic. Burke would have been privy to the staging, it is essential to any involvement/coverup.

:cow:

I've seen many many 9 year olds deny the obvious. Children can be caught red handed and deny they did it. ( whatever it is )

Perhaps Burke was simply denying and thrilled when his parents seemed to believe he didn't do it, someone else did!



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[Linda7NJ]

My thoughts are more along the lines of covering up old abuse.

Or, attempting to cover it up.

JB died unexpectedly, the staging was applied to hide what happened.

Ditto the paintbrush - let's hide what happened.

:sick:

:moo:

I don't think it was unexpected at all. A blow to the head like she suffered? whoever hit her, expected to severely injure her. IMO


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[Linda7NJ]

I still think that

1. these two would never stage to protect anyone else but themselves and

2. if you are going to cover for a murdering son, the very first part of the coverup is to coach that son.

BR was not coached, it is clear from his comment. They either forgot to, or knew they didn't have to because those kids did what their parents told them - or what their father told them, at least.

It just doesn't fit. No logic. Burke would have been privy to the staging, it is essential to any involvement/coverup.

:cow:

I still think John wasn't part of the staging. I think he did find JonBenet on an earlier trip downstairs. He knew someone in that house did it. Maybe he had a really strong inkling it was Burke.

they both were trying to hide their own guilt for not doing anything about burkes "issue" and their failure as parents and less about protecting Burke. They had their facade to look after

What was the pastor supposed to have overheard as John brought her upstairs? Something like.. He didn't mean to do it.. Blanket something something...

And that whole thing with JAR saying the perp should be "forgiven" ...


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[UKGuy]

I wish I wasn't


"They were so meshed up in each other, and it was my gut instinct that told me something wasn't right there," says Stobie. "They were going on and on about the size of Burke's penis. This, to me, was so bizarre....

from http://bardachreports.com/articles/v_19971000.html

Venom,
I have an unpublished RDI which includes the Paughs, and expands on JonBenet's role in the pageant circuit. Therein I use the reference to Burke's penis as an indication of a dysfunctional family.

i.e. is that flaccid or what?


.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Oh dear.

I just don't see protective parents in this mess, not anywhere. They didn't protect JB, why would they protect B, and protect him from what, exactly? He was 9...there is no death penalty for a 9 year old, they can't even be held legally responsible for what they do. He wouldn't have received any "punishment", if convicted, more like a cushy psych hospital room for a year or two.

BDI's - how does the "lets protect Burke theory" actually play out? I'm going to try to imagine it.

Burke (and JB) both perform the next-to-impossible, meaning an 18.5 hour day (at least)of FULL ON excitement, presents, friends etc, to stay up till after midnight to play a game of doctors.

We know JB wouldn't have gone near the basement in the dark willingly, and I cannot imagine B managing to manipulate her down there without the parents hearing.

If it was in JB's bed, and they were both lying down, how did she get hit across the head? The wound is in the position of someone bringing a weapon down hard (from a height) on the top of her head, unless B was perched on the headboard above her, he didn't belt her in the bed.

So he was making JB peform some oral act and she was kneeling...so why hit her? She was on her knees, doing as she was told.

When you hit a child over the head very hard (or they hit themselves), the first thing they do is scream, then bawl. It hurts.

JB screamed, woke her parents, who rushed into her bedroom and found Burke looking very very guilty, so then they lugged her (still alive) body down to the basement, all while forgetting to tell Burke to go to his room and DO NOT COME OUT until we come to get you?

JB is still breathing, they snap off a paintbrush and molest her? Garrotte her and tie her up, write notes, forget to brief Burke who is the most important aspect of the staging surely, the one who's being covered for, then proceed to calmly lie their heads off to LE?

It just doesn't make sense. This scenario is not logical to me.

How does anyone explain JB being in that nasty cold basement, without being dragged/carried/forced?

She was "freaked out" by it even in the daytime.

I cannot believe Burke pulled her all the way down there without her screaming the house down.

:cow:

 

[UKGuy]

I still think John wasn't part of the staging. I think he did find JonBenet on an earlier trip downstairs. He knew someone in that house did it. Maybe he had a really strong inkling it was Burke.

they both were trying to hide their own guilt for not doing anything about burkes "issue" and their failure as parents and less about protecting Burke. They had their facade to look after

What was the pastor supposed to have overheard as John brought her upstairs? Something like.. He didn't mean to do it.. Blanket something something...

And that whole thing with JAR saying the perp should be "forgiven" ...


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Linda7NJ,
What was all that about? Surely you can only forgive someone you know? Sounds a lot like PDI to me?


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