weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

[JayFriend]

Actually a witness can put in a written application to the judge for a publication ban on their name. And likely the two women who did had legal advice to do so. Probably for no other reason than not wanting their names dragged into this mess. Perhaps to them it is an embarrasment and they have reason to believe that it would cause them some hardship, in their personal and/or professional lives, to have their names publicized.

How does a victim or witness get a judge to
consider making a publication ban?

The Criminal Code sets out the steps for seeking out a
publication ban:

<snip>

Now, that I can understand! I can see where a woman in a position of respect and authority in a company would never be able to function if it were known she was snagged by Rafferty on POF, especially if she were married.

One more question: When a witness's name and profession are under a publication ban, do those present in the courtroom know and are cautioned not to reveal it to anyone, or does the witness testify anonymously? I would think the latter would be unfair to the accused.

 

[Kamille]

Now, that I can understand! I can see where a woman in a position of respect and authority in a company would never be able to function if it were known she was snagged by Rafferty on POF, especially if she were married.

One more question: When a witness's name and profession are under a publication ban, do those present in the courtroom know and are cautioned not to reveal it to anyone, or does the witness testify anonymously? I would think the latter would be unfair to the accused.

This is strictly a publication ban. The witness' name and profession would be required to be entered into the actual legal proceedings I believe. So yes, those who are present would likely have this information but really what are they going to do with it? They may tell friends but it is unlikely that it will get much further. So I suppose there is a possibility that the name may get out to someone who knows the witness personally or professionally but it is much less likely than if it was put into print in the media.

MOO

 

[Salem]

(snipped except for this item)

This is the one who was described by reporters to be in a "helping profession", rather vague and mysterious. One reporter described her as being highly educated and very professional with her answers. She's the only one who's name was withheld in the press. I'm very curious. Did the public in the courtroom hear her name and profession? Can you give us any better clues? What kind of "helping profession"? A civilian informant? Undercover cop trolling POF for perverts?

This particular witness is under a publication ban. Sleuthing of her/them is OFF LIMITS for this board. WS supports Canada's efforts to bring those responsible for Tori's murder to justice and we respect their publication bans.

If you have questions, please pm a moderator.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[fats]

thankfully we don't have the death penalty here in Canada...life in prison would do for me for some of these murderers...:moo:

I would like to see the death penalty brought back to Canada for crimes like this---why should the Canadian Tax Payers support criminals in prison---I would rather see my tax dollars spent more constructively than keeping people like RW, TLM and potentially MTR in room and board and attempting to rehabilitate people like that.

 

[maxfactor]

I would like to see the death penalty brought back to Canada for crimes like this---why should the Canadian Tax Payers support criminals in prison---I would rather see my tax dollars spent more constructively than keeping people like RW, TLM and potentially MTR in room and board and attempting to rehabilitate people like that.

And I'd like to see them do away with protective custody. That irks me to end that they are given special treatment to keep them safe. The victims didn't get that and neither did their families. Let them live in fear looking over their shoulder all the time. That might stop some of them if they knew they were in for trouble on the inside. :moo:

 

[matou]

Does a publication like that protect the woman who testified from anyone posting her name on facebook or twitter too? JMO

 

[brighidin]

And I'd like to see them do away with protective custody. That irks me to end that they are given special treatment to keep them safe. The victims didn't get that and neither did their families. Let them live in fear looking over their shoulder all the time. That might stop some of them if they knew they were in for trouble on the inside. :moo:

I don't think protective custody is necessarily special treatment, beyond the fact that they are segregated. This is an old article, but it describes the wing where Bernardo, Williams and other sex killers are housed at Kingston.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1149055

 

[brighidin]

I would like to see the death penalty brought back to Canada for crimes like this---why should the Canadian Tax Payers support criminals in prison---I would rather see my tax dollars spent more constructively than keeping people like RW, TLM and potentially MTR in room and board and attempting to rehabilitate people like that.

I couldn't support the reinstatement of the death penalty, although I can understand why parents of murdered children would.
Interesting editorial on it, and not totally off topic, since it references TLM and MR:
http://www.emcalmontecarletonplace.ca/20120322/news/Urge+to+kill?+Yes.+Right+to+kill?+No

 

[BorgQueen]

And I'd like to see them do away with protective custody. That irks me to end that they are given special treatment to keep them safe. The victims didn't get that and neither did their families. Let them live in fear looking over their shoulder all the time. That might stop some of them if they knew they were in for trouble on the inside. :moo:

I'd like to see them do away with PC, too. Also, all these darn gyms and pools and other fancy fun recreation that many people who are not, and never will be, in jail could never afford. Why is it that they have the rights to gyms, pools, university-level education, etc, when we law-abiding citizens do not have the right to? :maddening:

I don't particularly agree with the death penalty. They are not being punished that way. They do not have to suffer consequences that way. They are killed and that is the end of it. Easy way out, and many inmates could possibly prefer that than sitting in a small cell with their toilet hole next to their bed.
Just take away all their privileges. Stick them in a small cell with a metal bed, a toilet, and a sink. Provide them with bread and water 3x a day, maybe some corn on weekends. Let them suffer the consequences of their actions. JMO. :moo:


ETA: quote from link posted above (will repost link after quote)
"Know what?" I said to my guide. "I would rather take a needle in the arm than live like that."

"Just be thankful," said my guide, "that we no longer have capital punishment in this country."
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1149055

Pretty much sums it up...

 

[nettie_82]

I'd like to see them do away with PC, too. Also, all these darn gyms and pools and other fancy fun recreation that many people who are not, and never will be, in jail could never afford. Why is it that they have the rights to gyms, pools, university-level education, etc, when we law-abiding citizens do not have the right to? :maddening:

I don't particularly agree with the death penalty. They are not being punished that way. They do not have to suffer consequences that way. They are killed and that is the end of it. Easy way out, and many inmates could possibly prefer that than sitting in a small cell with their toilet hole next to their bed.
Just take away all their privileges. Stick them in a small cell with a metal bed, a toilet, and a sink. Provide them with bread and water 3x a day, maybe some corn on weekends. Let them suffer the consequences of their actions. JMO. :moo:


ETA: quote from link posted above (will repost link after quote)
"Know what?" I said to my guide. "I would rather take a needle in the arm than live like that."

"Just be thankful," said my guide, "that we no longer have capital punishment in this country."
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1149055

Pretty much sums it up...

BBM

I totally agree with you and just to add, jails should be self sufficient. Make the criminals work for the food they eat instead of the taxpayers feeding them.

 

[Ardy]

Funny how from day one MR was known as a womanizer, cheater user, loser, druggie and bum. MOO

Article dated June 7, 2009

Michael Rafferty has been named as a suspect in the Tori Stafford murder in Ontario. He was named after a fellow suspect reportedly heard that he was dating other women. Learn more about the man in the centre of this case.
It’s known that Michael Rafferty was a ladies man. He is accused of cheating on his girlfriends, Tara McDonald, the mother of Tori Stafford, told police.

Rafferty has a son. It’s been said that as a father he wasn’t in contact with his son.

Rafferty was also a party guy. The Toronto Star reports that in Toronto, where he lived ten years ago, he was a regular at a bar on Peter Street.

In Woodstock he spent time at Good Times Charlie’s.

Although some have called the man odd, no one would have connected him to the murder of a child.

Rafferty is said to be on a suicide watch at Elgin Middlesex Detention Centre in London, Ontario.

http://timeinmoments.wordpress.com/...el-rafferty-the-suspect-in-the-stafford-case/

IMO.....I was surprised to learn that TM had discussed MR with the police.

From what I understand TM testified that she didn't know MR.

According to this article, TM either knew MR or had discussed him with someone who told her that he was a ladies man and was accused of cheating on his girlfriends.....JMO

She was telling the police about him.........if the article is accurate reporting.

JMO

 

[flipflop]

BBM

I totally agree with you and just to add, jails should be self sufficient. Make the criminals work for the food they eat instead of the taxpayers feeding them.

And once they are sentenced to life, all or any payments from the Government should be cancelled....for example PENSION CHEQUES (which inmates were still collecting in 2010, I believe a motion was passed in the last couple of years in regards to the penion cheques)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti.../07/09/bc-clifford-olson-pension-lawsuit.html

 

[brighidin]

IMO.....I was surprised to learn that TM had discussed MR with the police.

From what I understand TM testified that she didn't know MR.

According to this article, TM either knew MR or had discussed him with someone who told her that he was a ladies man and was accused of cheating on his girlfriends.....JMO

She was telling the police about him.........if the article is accurate reporting.

JMO

I just clicked on the link in the post you quoted. it took me to a blog that quotes the Calgary Herald as reporting:
“From what I am told, and I don’t know if it stands true or not, but the only reason that she confessed was that she found out he had found another girlfriend out here and that was pretty much her way of getting back,” Tara McDonald said.

The part I bolded indicates that TM was told about MR. The link to the Herald is a dead link so I can't verify it, but it sounds to me like this was second hand info to TM.

 

[dilbert]

I couldn't support the reinstatement of the death penalty, although I can understand why parents of murdered children would.
Interesting editorial on it, and not totally off topic, since it references TLM and MR:
http://www.emcalmontecarletonplace.ca/20120322/news/Urge+to+kill?+Yes.+Right+to+kill?+No

And therein lies the problem with this case or any case where two are accused of acting together and there is no irrefutable DNA evidence. It almost happened before TLM fessed up and confessed to being the actual murderer and I believe Derstine wondered how much more time would pass before she told the truth about the rest of the crime. IMO government sanctioned murder is not the answer.

from your link...

This issue was settled with a free vote in the House of Commons on July 14, 1976, but just as importantly, he should remember the words of his own Tory predecessor at 24 Sussex Drive, fellow westerner John Diefenbaker, himself no bleeding heart. Diefenbaker, a former Saskatchewan defence lawyer, famously granted the reprieve for 14-year-old Stephen Truscott, who had been sentenced to "hang by the neck," for the rape and murder of 12-year-old Lynne Harper. (Diefenbaker didn't commute all of the death sentences that went before him, it should be noted. Canada's last hanging was held at Toronto's Don Jail on Dec. 11, 1962, when he was still in office.)

He spoke from experience in the House of Commons on May 1, 1972, when he revealed that he had taken part in a trial which saw an innocent man hung. "(He) was convicted. (His) appeal was dismissed, (he) was executed, and six months later the star witness for the crown admitted that he, himself, had committed the murder and blamed it on the accused. That experience will never be effaced from my memory."

Remember this from CA?

MOO

 

[Tahorn]

IMO.....I was surprised to learn that TM had discussed MR with the police.

From what I understand TM testified that she didn't know MR.

According to this article, TM either knew MR or had discussed him with someone who told her that he was a ladies man and was accused of cheating on his girlfriends.....JMO

She was telling the police about him.........if the article is accurate reporting.

JMO

This case is so twisted ...

 

[Kamille]

IMO.....I was surprised to learn that TM had discussed MR with the police.

From what I understand TM testified that she didn't know MR.

According to this article, TM either knew MR or had discussed him with someone who told her that he was a ladies man and was accused of cheating on his girlfriends.....JMO

She was telling the police about him.........if the article is accurate reporting.

JMO

That is a citizen's blog and not a news source so I wouldn't take anything in it as correct "reporting".

MOO

 

[flipflop]

IMO.....I was surprised to learn that TM had discussed MR with the police.

From what I understand TM testified that she didn't know MR.

According to this article, TM either knew MR or had discussed him with someone who told her that he was a ladies man and was accused of cheating on his girlfriends.....JMO

She was telling the police about him.........if the article is accurate reporting.

JMO

Seeing that one of TM friends dated him through POF around April 8th, Im sure she found out about him rather quickly.

 

[Alethea Dice]

And ... on to your other questions. Some of them are impossible to answer because if neither the Crown nor the defence asked a specific question, it was not stated. There is no story telling here - the witness only answers questions.

For instance, only two were asked if they were sexually intimate with MTR and they answered in the affirmative. It should be obvious that some of them never had the opportunity. Most of them were not asked if they had children, so there is no way to know for sure. They were not asked who dumped whom, but in a couple of cases, it seemed obvious.

All of them except RB met him through POF and there was communication via texts, MSM, and phone calls before some of them met with him.

Here is what I got from my notes:

#1 - AR

Current age - 25
Children? - not asked
Who dumped whom - not asked, but they only had one date before he was arrested

#2 - SL

Current age - 50
Children - Six of them (ages not specified)
Who dumped whom - not asked, not made clear if they even met in person

#3 - MW

Current age - 30
Children - not asked
Who dumped whom - She declined dates, they never met in person. Seemed to have been her choice, as he persisted and she refused.

#4 - AC

Current age - 33
Children - Girl now 16, boy now 13
Who dumped whom - Unclear, but ended 3-4 days after Tori went missing. It appeared to be her choice, but not sure.

#5 - Name under ban

Current age - 28
Children - not asked
Who dumped whom - Had one 15 minute coffee date. Further requests denied. Must assume she did the dumping.

#6 - SC

Current age - 29
Children - not asked
Who dumped whom - MR cancelled first date. Had one coffee date another time. She decided they had nothing in common, so she dumped him.

#7 - RB

Current age - 23
Children - not asked
Who dumped whom - She dumped him for another man after a several months' intimate relationship (ended Dec. '07)

HTH

Well, that put's things more in perspective. Out of the 7 women on the stand on Friday, he had actually only "dated" 2 of them. One whose relationship ended in 2007, and one that ended shortly after Tori went missing. 3 had only 1 short date, 1 never even met him, and 1 is unknown. Sounds more like he was looking for someone to "date", than messing around with all these women at the same time.

 

[BorgQueen]

BBM

I totally agree with you and just to add, jails should be self sufficient. Make the criminals work for the food they eat instead of the taxpayers feeding them.

And once they are sentenced to life, all or any payments from the Government should be cancelled....for example PENSION CHEQUES!!!!!!

I agree with both of these statements!
And the money they earn from working should have to go toward 'rent' (jail maintenance!), food, clothing, etc. Not luxuries that even many hard-working, law-abiding citizens can't afford.

I fully support the whole "chain gang" thing. Death penalty is just giving these people the easy way out. :moo: :jail:

 

[Kamille]

Well, that put's things more in perspective. Out of the 7 women on the stand on Friday, he had actually only "dated" 2 of them. One whose relationship ended in 2007, and one that ended shortly after Tori went missing. 3 had only 1 short date, 1 never even met him, and 1 is unknown. Sounds more like he was looking for someone to "date", than messing around with all these women at the same time.

Because the two he was "dating" before the murder and the 4 he was dating right after were not enough? :waitasec:

Women MR was involved with from 2005 to May 19, 2009, the day of his arrest

1. TL McClintic - 21, met at pizza shop Jan 2009. GF helped MR abduct Tori for alleged sexual/nefarious purposes. Received life sentence of 25 years in prison.

2. A. Lane - met MR in grade six and reconnect in 2009 through FB

3. Miss W<modsnip> - April 2009 - May 2009 GF at the time of his arrest. Dated for five to six weeks. IIRC met on POF.

4. J. Wood - woman known to MR. She was in her Honda in GLF parking lot day May 19, 2009 day of his arrest. Her car also seized by LE.

5. Kate - MR spoke about Kate (not real name), would not tell LE her real name.

6. B. Armstrong - 44, ex lover, met at BBeef/work late 2008, had girly talks with MR, supplied oxy drugs numerous times to MR including the day Tori was murdered.

7. Miss Unknown #1 (Pub ban) - 37, MR met her on POF April 12/09, MR told her about TLM in detention centre being questioned about Tori's abduction.

8. S. Hodge - 31, C&Y worker MR met on POF April 14/09, saw each other every day for two and a half weeks. Said he was a dance instructor. She mostly drove them around, MR on phone setting up dance appointments. MR told her he took oxy, he thought he had colon cancer. MR spoke to her about people abducting children raising them as their own. Obsessed with Tori's case listening to news and reading newspaper.

9. T. Moore aka Tam Tam, met MR on Yahoo 2003. She said MR bought car in 2007 from used car lot in TO. Noticed May 9/09 back seat and rear carpet missing from MR's car.

10. M. LaBute, MR met her at her workplace Staples March 2009 to Unknown saying he was new in town. She told MR she wasn't interested, described MR as nervous and needy. Spent a lot of time on phone keeping track of his workers claiming to own contracting business.

11. A Reid, 25 In spring of 2009 to early May 2009 she lived in London, near Fanshawe College. Met Rafferty on POF. Rafferty asked her to go to a stag and doe with him near the Hamilton area. She accepted. This was in early May.

12. S. Latimer is 50 year old real estate agent who lives on farm outside Woodstock, mother of six. Met Rafferty in Jan 2009 on POF.

13. M. Wagler 30, works at UofW met Rafferty January 2009 on POF. Rafferty's post said he was looking for romance. On Good Friday (April 10th) in 2009, he asked her to go for breakfast in London. She declined.

14. A. M. Chambers is 33 and lives in Woodstock. Met of POF. March 2009 to Unknown Date mother of two (boy and girl). Chambers knew Tori Stafford, at one point her family lived around block and Tori played with her daughter (age 16). Chambers said they started communication near end of March 2009 they went out for coffee, went bowling, he came over to house. Chambers said she had sex with Rafferty once. They got along well. JMO (Latole's opinion) I think she is the Amanda who he stated to police was friends with TM. Here is another OMG moment ... Chambers said #Rafferty told her he had a step-son named Jaden who had died 2 wks before they met. She said that pulled on her heartstrings.

15. No name (#2) - The next witness is a 28 year old woman who met Michael Rafferty online thru POF (as Mychol) at the end of March 2009. The woman texted frequently and they met for coffee on a Friday near end of April, Rafferty claimed he was teaching dance class in Kitchener. They exchanged cell phone numbers. Communicated by text message. The woman said there was little info on Rafferty's POF post - said he "wasn't into games" that caught her interest. Rafferty told her he was a contractor and dance teacher and wanted to travel. The woman said Rafferty showed up at her workplace at one point. She was asked to go to the Stag and Doe, but said no, as she wasn't feeling well. Said it seemed weird to ask her. He seemed upset. She worked at Staples. He came into the store to say hi, brought a coffee. He asked why she wasn't more excited to see him. She was busy.

16. S. Cooney - age 29, and lived in Kitchener in 2009. She also met Rafferty on POF. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was a contractor and ballroom dance teacher. She talked to him by phone first on April 12th, 2009. Cooney said Rafferty told her he was involved in search for Tori and was concerned. Said he was driving a woman to police for questioning. Rafferty discussed his family, said he didn't get along with his brother, had a bad childhood. She spent two hours with Rafferty, said she "wanted the date to be over". Had different views and values. He asked for 2nd date and she declined.

17. Rachel Diwell - 23, 2005 to December 2007 Diwell was 17 in 2005 and lived with her boyfriend when she first met Rafferty. Says they became inseparable. Friendship blossomed to more. Diwell said Rafferty lived in Guelph, has worked in landscaping, meat processing plant - aspired to be dance instructor but was unemployed. He showed her where he grew up. A farm house outside of Kitchener. They "drove around a lot". They would sometimes get out of the car and "become intimate." He drove. She only had a G1. Rafferty always seemed to know where he was going in the Guelph/Fergus area, she says. They took backroads. Rafferty washed his car regularly. She would help. They went to self serve car washes in Guelph, Kitchener and Cambridge. Rafferty told her he had back problems. They picked up percocets regularly (2005-2007). Diwell said she stopped seeing Rafferty around Dec. 2007.

MOO