weekend discussion thread: 4/14-16/2012

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Look at all the lies and manipulative, sociopathic behaviour.

Just from one little statement, from one of many witnesses.

Unbelievable.


She learned of Tori’s disappearance the day after it happened and texted Rafferty the news.

“He seemed surprised. He seemed like everyone else that day . . . sympathetic,” Chambers testified.

Chambers searched for Tori that evening and Rafferty texted her to say he was searching ,too, around the tracks at his end of the city.

The next evening, an upset Chambers met a “very supportive” Rafferty at a coffee shop. “We were talking about how she may have went missing, how this could happen.”

Rafferty made some jokes to lighten the mood, saying he’d seen a woman in a white jacket and if that was her, “he would tackle her to the ground.”

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/...don/raffertytrial/2012/04/13/pf-19631571.html
 
Well, that put's things more in perspective. Out of the 7 women on the stand on Friday, he had actually only "dated" 2 of them. One whose relationship ended in 2007, and one that ended shortly after Tori went missing. 3 had only 1 short date, 1 never even met him, and 1 is unknown. Sounds more like he was looking for someone to "date", than messing around with all these women at the same time.

IMO......Put into perspective.........it doesn't seem to amount to much, from a "dating" perspective.
 
Because the two he was "dating" before the murder and the 4 he was dating right after were not enough? :waitasec:

I assume you're talking about AC and TLM for before, but who are the 4 after? Or do you consider having one coffee date actually "dating"?
 
it's strange that if Tori knew her brother would be back to walk her home and was told before hand that this would be the case why would she not wait for him...this leads me to believe that TLM concocted another lie and told Tori that she was sent to take her home....and since Tori knew TLM (somewhat through their dogs and Mother's contacts with TLM's Mother she went off with her...:moo:

Did Tori know?

Cynthia Mulligan ‏ @CityCynthia
#Rafferty - tara assumed darren would walk Tori home from school that day. She had told him to. He went to meet her but she was gone.

2:58 PM - 7 Mar 12 via Twitter for BlackBerry®

Cynthia Mulligan ‏ @CityCynthia
#Rafferty - tara says she did not tell tori to wait for her brother.

2:58 PM - 7 Mar 12 via Twitter for BlackBerry®
 
Well, that put's things more in perspective. Out of the 7 women on the stand on Friday, he had actually only "dated" 2 of them. One whose relationship ended in 2007, and one that ended shortly after Tori went missing. 3 had only 1 short date, 1 never even met him, and 1 is unknown. Sounds more like he was looking for someone to "date", than messing around with all these women at the same time.

from the audio with LE it seems he was quite active "dating", zipping around and drifting, before the murder as well.:moo:
 


No I believe he knew the area and knew of the farm lane.

Why he was there.....depends on which side of the events is true, IMO

The Crown would say he was there to commit the terrible crimes in seclusion.

The defense would say that after he was advised by TLM that she had abducted VS until a drug debt was paid, he needed a place to go and collect his thoughts, make a couple of phone calls, and maybe take a bathroom break for all of them.

In either scenario, he was probably there because he had prior knowledge of the farm lane..........IMO.

IMHO any normal person would have been able to collect their thought IMMEDIATELY upon finding out they had an abducted little girl in their vehicle. Throw the kidnapper out of the car and call 911. The evidence is what it is and MR did all the wrong things. First huge mistake was asking TLM to abduct a little girl for him to rape. There is no excuse that is going to help him.
 
IMHO any normal person would have been able to collect their thought IMMEDIATELY upon finding out they had an abducted little girl in their vehicle. Throw the kidnapper out of the car and call 911. The evidence is what it is and MR did all the wrong things. First huge mistake was asking TLM to abduct a little girl for him to rape. There is no excuse that is going to help him.

:coffeews: I cannot imagine where the defense is going to go with this:moo:
 
Interesting read. Too bad Derstine didn't read this before MR's trial. I did find it rather odd in which the defense did not give an opening statement. I have been looking into information as to why Derstine waived his right to presenting an opening statement, which I always felt was critical in showing the accused innocence or raise a reasonable doubt. From all the articles I have read so far, it sounds like a big mistake not to give an opening statement. I can give a few reasons of my own as to why I believe Derstine failed to give an open statement:

1. He wanted to hear how the Crown was going to present everything and hear what each witness had to say before he can spin his theory on what happened.

2. Derstine knows or feels with great certainty there is no way he can convince the jurors MR is not guilty of abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder of Tori, based on evidence including witnesses and expert witnesses testimony. He already knows MR is guilty of abduction and murder under the criminal code.

3. Derstine is not as brilliant as some people speculate or claim he is or he himself has portrayed himself to be.

4. Derstine doesn't really give a carp how this case plays out, he's still getting his 15 minutes of fame for representing this high profile case. In the end, he will do his little interview outside London's courthouse and say I tried, but it's impossible to argue a case like this with overwhelming evidence. We will appeal the decision.

It still boggles my mind Derstine has had ample opportunities to cross examine numerous witnesses, to raise doubt in the jurors minds, but has yet he failed to do so.
What really was an ah ha moment for me was when he asked McLean if the blood, sperm and DNA evidence showed MR had sex with Tori. That was a huge red flag for me. Derstine was only worried about the sexual assault charges. Derstine may as well said ok I know I cannot argue away the abduction or murder charges and because you McLean, have not been clear with your technical explanation let's throw this question out there about the sex, common sense tells us, we all know something happened between MR and Tori in order for you to find their blood and DNA mixed.
MOO that's all!

The Defense Must Open
The defendant in a criminal case needs a good theme, just as
much as, if not more than, the plaintiff in a civil case. For example:
“This is a case of self-defense.” Or if you can carefully talk about
the burden of proof in opening statement, you have made great
strides in improving your chances of an acquittal or a hung jury.
Even when you have no real defense, never waive the opportunity
to communicate with the jury. Get up and say something! Stress
how important it is to everyone, not only the defendant, that the
safeguards of the presumption of innocence be rigorously applied.
Explain that the presumption of innocence does not end when the
trial starts, but continues until and unless the prosecution presents
believable evidence to the jury’s satisfaction beyond a reasonable
doubt on each and every element of the charged offenses.

In both state and federal court, I have too often seen defense
counsel announce to the court, “Your Honor, we will reserve our
opening statement.” Without showing outward emotion, I cringe.
Reserve your opening? Reserve what? The prosecution has just
painted a picture of your client as a person who deals in drugs and
conspires with those who sell them. Drugs have permeated our
society and ruined thousands of lives, even some of the children,
spouses, and friends of the jurors. Counsel must get up and change
that picture or at least neutralize it—by showing that your client
did not knowingly, with specific intent, violate the controlled substance laws. Defense counsel must remember that you are trying
the case to the jury and not the judge. The rule of primacy dictates
that defense counsel make an opening statement. You must defuse
and neutralize the rule of primacy. Get up! Get up! Get up!
Talk
about how the burden of proof never shifts to the defendant. Tell
the jurors in opening that “not guilty” means “not proved guilty.”
Early on, you must touch the hearts and minds of the jurors by
showing how wrong these charges against the accused are. If you
wait until the prosecution rests to begin your opening statement
in a criminal case, you have—with rare exception—just sent your
client to prison.
Every criminal defense lawyer should know that
it is an uphill climb. The criminal defendant is at a disadvantage
from the beginning. The jury is thinking, He or she must have
done something wrong; otherwise there would not be a trial.


http://www.michbar.org/journal/pdf/pdf4article1805.pdf
 
from Guelph to Riverston landfill site where the landscaping job was, the laneway area is a 5 min drive out of his way. I agree, he would have had no reason to travel this laneway or this part of the road with a landscaping crew of at least one other person. I am thinking he was on a date with yet another female from POF. At the end of the day on friday there was a tweet about the MF chapter will continue on Tuesday with another 8 people to take the stand. This makes me wonder if any of these 8 are more from POF and if any of them are from the MF area, putting him very close to this laneway once again. JMO

This laneway could have been a nice little hideaway for employees of the landscaping crew to take a bit of a break and have lunch. Quiet, serene, out of sight from peering eyes, slug back a couple of cold ones lol. Also someone else said when they did their landscaping, they were taken to a rock pile to collect rocks. MR may have been at this location doing just that; collecting rocks. Tuesday will bring more telltale evidence. :moo:
 
I'd go with a possible party place, but not for drugs. It's too out of the way and unnecessary. A drug deal usually takes less than a minute and can be done almost anywhere. I've seen it happen behind the busy 7-Eleven here in town and under tables (or on top) in public restaurants. There's no need to drive several hundred metres up a deserted country lane. But if there were any parties up there, the Crown has had 3 years to find even one person to testify to that. You would think that anyone from the area who has access to the news would have come forward or been found by the prosecution. And this chapter of the trial is finished. The Crown expects to be completely done in a week and a half.


JMO

MR could have found this location while working for the landscaping business close by and visited it quite often, while zipping around the country side meeting other women. May have been his favourite spot for spanking the monkey after let down dates in his earlier years, well even before his arrest, kwim. Pardon the expression but that sounds better then wording it another way. The way TLM stated what happened when he pulled into the laneway. :what: :moo:
 
Bottom line is TS was in the car with MTR and TLM and should not have been and she died a horrible death in their presence by their doing and their actions and inactions. Then hid the body and costed the parents, LE and taxpayers immensely. Now it is time they pay. JMO

IMO the punishment should be death penalty.

IMHO punishment should be to put MR in with the general population of the prison. Why are these sickos protected? They don't deserve to be. :moo:
 
And therein lies the problem with this case or any case where two are accused of acting together and there is no irrefutable DNA evidence. It almost happened before TLM fessed up and confessed to being the actual murderer and I believe Derstine wondered how much more time would pass before she told the truth about the rest of the crime. IMO government sanctioned murder is not the answer.

from your link...


Remember this from CA?

346usf5.jpg


MOO

and TWO cleaned up the crime scene and then for weeks later the clean up continued with MTR...

I will admit this post is compelling for no cap punishment.:moo:
 
MR could have found this location while working for the landscaping business close by and visited it quite often, while zipping around the country side meeting other women. May have been his favourite spot for spanking the monkey after let down dates in his earlier years, well even before his arrest, kwim. Pardon the expression but that sounds better then wording it another way. The way TLM stated what happened when he pulled into the laneway. :what: :moo:

:laugh::tmi::floorlaugh:
 
IMHO punishment should be to put MR in with the general population of the prison. Why are these sickos protected? They don't deserve to be. :moo:

I don't think inmates like MTR will ever be in gen pop. Just like Bernardo, Williams or Wills, the state has to protect them as they go quickly to the bottom of the pecking order due to the nature of the crimes.:moo: I say too bad for them; but the state has their mandate to protect them.
 
:moo:
Interesting read. Too bad Derstine didn't read this before MR's trial. I did find it rather odd in which the defense did not give an opening statement. I have been looking into information as to why Derstine waived his right to presenting an opening statement, which I always felt was critical in showing the accused innocence or raise a reasonable doubt. From all the articles I have read so far, it sounds like a big mistake not to give an opening statement. I can give a few reasons of my own as to why I believe Derstine failed to give an open statement:

1. He wanted to hear how the Crown was going to present everything and hear what each witness had to say before he can spin his theory on what happened.

2. Derstine knows or feels with great certainty there is no way he can convince the jurors MR is not guilty of abduction, sexual assault causing bodily harm and murder of Tori, based on evidence including witnesses and expert witnesses testimony. He already knows MR is guilty of abduction and murder under the criminal code.

3. Derstine is not as brilliant as some people speculate or claim he is or he himself has portrayed himself to be.

4. Derstine doesn't really give a carp how this case plays out, he's still getting his 15 minutes of fame for representing this high profile case. In the end, he will do his little interview outside London's courthouse and say I tried, but it's impossible to argue a case like this with overwhelming evidence. We will appeal the decision.

It still boggles my mind Derstine has had ample opportunities to cross examine numerous witnesses, to raise doubt in the jurors minds, but has yet he failed to do so.
What really was an ah ha moment for me was when he asked McLean if the blood, sperm and DNA evidence showed MR had sex with Tori. That was a huge red flag for me. Derstine was only worried about the sexual assault charges. Derstine may as well said ok I know I cannot argue away the abduction or murder charges and because you McLean, have not been clear with your technical explanation let's throw this question out there about the sex, common sense tells us, we all know something happened between MR and Tori in order for you to find their blood and DNA mixed.
MOO that's all!

The Defense Must Open
The defendant in a criminal case needs a good theme, just as
much as, if not more than, the plaintiff in a civil case. For example:
“This is a case of self-defense.” Or if you can carefully talk about
the burden of proof in opening statement, you have made great
strides in improving your chances of an acquittal or a hung jury.
Even when you have no real defense, never waive the opportunity
to communicate with the jury. Get up and say something! Stress
how important it is to everyone, not only the defendant, that the
safeguards of the presumption of innocence be rigorously applied.
Explain that the presumption of innocence does not end when the
trial starts, but continues until and unless the prosecution presents
believable evidence to the jury’s satisfaction beyond a reasonable
doubt on each and every element of the charged offenses.

In both state and federal court, I have too often seen defense
counsel announce to the court, “Your Honor, we will reserve our
opening statement.” Without showing outward emotion, I cringe.
Reserve your opening? Reserve what? The prosecution has just
painted a picture of your client as a person who deals in drugs and
conspires with those who sell them. Drugs have permeated our
society and ruined thousands of lives, even some of the children,
spouses, and friends of the jurors. Counsel must get up and change
that picture or at least neutralize it—by showing that your client
did not knowingly, with specific intent, violate the controlled substance laws. Defense counsel must remember that you are trying
the case to the jury and not the judge. The rule of primacy dictates
that defense counsel make an opening statement. You must defuse
and neutralize the rule of primacy. Get up! Get up! Get up!
Talk
about how the burden of proof never shifts to the defendant. Tell
the jurors in opening that “not guilty” means “not proved guilty.”
Early on, you must touch the hearts and minds of the jurors by
showing how wrong these charges against the accused are. If you
wait until the prosecution rests to begin your opening statement
in a criminal case, you have—with rare exception—just sent your
client to prison.
Every criminal defense lawyer should know that
it is an uphill climb. The criminal defendant is at a disadvantage
from the beginning. The jury is thinking, He or she must have
done something wrong; otherwise there would not be a trial.


http://www.michbar.org/journal/pdf/pdf4article1805.pdf

I think you might be right.
 
I agree with both of these statements!
And the money they earn from working should have to go toward 'rent' (jail maintenance!), food, clothing, etc. Not luxuries that even many hard-working, law-abiding citizens can't afford.

I fully support the whole "chain gang" thing. Death penalty is just giving these people the easy way out. :moo: :jail:

Bernardo arrived at the 160-year-old prison yesterday under escort of officers from the Niagara Region and Toronto police forces.
All federal prisoners are eligible for one of five levels of pay depending on their participation in eduction and work programs. Inmates use the money to buy cigarettes, stationery and other sundry items like chocolate bars and pop. Top pay is $6.90 a day. Correctional Service spokesman Ron Fairley said Bernardo arrived at the prison at about 9:30 a.m. and is automatically eligible for level-two pay.

http://www.cancrime.com/2010/11/07/sex-killer-paul-bernardos-polite-prison-welcome/ :what::moo:
 
Will look for a link, I do recall Cm saying something about telling, or selling, the true story. Not that I believe that, but it was in MSM somewhere. JMO

For the record:
"Carol McClintic, in a series of brief emails - all sent between 3 a.m. and 6 a.m. and riddled with awkward punctuation - said she had moved away from the Woodstock area and had been "treated like ****" over the past year.

"my day will come . . . .. And I want to write a full article and have it published word for word; And I will Sell it to the highest bidder," she wrote.

"When this is over I TOO will speak LOUD and CLEAR . . . .. AND ALL THE TRUTH WILL BE TOLD."

http://www2.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=3951599

It would be interesting to hear CM's version of the "truth", but I seriously doubt we will ever see it.

JMO
 
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